Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
  

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       end
  

Archive 2017 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.

  
 
leethecam
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


deepbluejh wrote:
Good videography is a very intrusive art. There is almost no way to do it well without being in everyone's face and controlling the situation. This makes it terrible for wedding photojournalists.

Most clients don't understand any of this though.


I disagree completely.

With 20+ years of broadcast / corporate experience as a DoP, I can disappear into the background and still get great shots, handheld or on a tripod.

It comes down to good technique and the right choice of kit. Alas many think the world stops at DSLR's or C300's for video coverage and there are usually better choices for covering events and the unexpected. (My main camera is the Sony PMW-500, but the camera/lens combo at some £40,000 is out of the reach of many wedding photographers)

To my mind, (and how I've covered a few weddings myself for video), is that the video coverage should be unobtrusive and non-controlling. True reportage. Thus freeing the photographer to set shots. I don't mind if the 'tog gets in my shots, but it isn't the same the other way around.

The last photographer I worked alongside at a wedding loved how I made consideration all the time - and I never missed a single shot.



Sep 14, 2017 at 02:30 PM
leethecam
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


deepbluejh wrote:
Some are "worse" than others, but i can tell you firsthand, almost any steadicam work has to be done in close proximity. It's also quite common to shoot something (in pieces) multiple times - which is super annoying requires several takes.

Yes a wedding video can be done while being a a quiet "fly on the wall" somewhere - but really good ones almost always aren't.

I have done both and I can tell you with no hesitation that that video is harder to do well than photo.


I've done both and I can tell you with no hestitation that photo is harder to do well than video.



Sep 14, 2017 at 02:32 PM
ashton lamont
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


leethecam wrote:
I disagree completely.

With 20+ years of broadcast / corporate experience as a DoP, I can disappear into the background .....


I can't comment on your own techniques obviously as I've never worked with you; whats more I've always been suitably impressed with the many posts you've made.

However, my own experience is that the moment a vendor apparently has "broadcast experience" I think "oh dear god nooooo!!!"

Specifically in relation to weddings. They just don't get it that the wedding is the wedding, it is not a TV show which just happens to include a real wedding. It wrecks the ambience even though the video vendor is working with the best of his intentions. It needs significant compromises in equipment and technique that would horrify broadcast professionals. The bride and groom may be unaware since they are so often within their own tunnel, but the guests have a poor experience around them.

Here is a recent example.. The ceremony room was set up per normal for a mid-range civil wedding, all be it a little spartan:
http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/10/477-pves/images/001-Warbrook-House-wedding-photography_002-4518-06_pves.jpg

Then along comes the audio engineer :- ( Puts thumping great big speakers right at the front - completely unnecessary in that room. And puts two big mics on the small top table plus a third one on a boom pole hanging over the table for all the world like a fishing rod. And the boom pole with its stand was directly in front of the couple between them and me:
n.b. that would have been from my camera position in this pghoto
http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/10/477-pves/images/030-Warbrook-House-wedding-photography_066-8451-05_pves.jpg

Fortunately the boom pole mic had really bad feedback and he couldn't solve it so he removed it.

The bride and groom had obviously had words after their ceremony - I wasn't a party to any of it - but when it came to the wedding breakfast speeches all that audio gear had been taken away:- )

There are so many who genuinely believe that they are unintrusive but they are not. Same with photographers of course.

Pete



Sep 14, 2017 at 05:00 PM
leethecam
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


ashton lamont wrote:
I can't comment on your own techniques obviously as I've never worked with you; whats more I've always been suitably impressed with the many posts you've made.

However, my own experience is that the moment a vendor apparently has "broadcast experience" I think "oh dear god nooooo!!!"

Specifically in relation to weddings. They just don't get it that the wedding is the wedding, it is not a TV show which just happens to include a real wedding. It wrecks the ambience even though the video vendor is working with the best of his intentions. It needs significant compromises in equipment and
...Show more
You are right about some that spout "broadcast experience..." it can be a red flag to me when I hear it sometimes.

There are some that are so concerned to do their job "properly" that they forget the aesthetics and value they bring to the party. Often mistakes are made due to very limited experience or inappropriate kit. Those huge speakers you show in your pics demonstrate a true lack of understanding / kit level and professionalism by the audio "engineer." A true pro would have been able to deliver the same with almost no footprint and hidden radios. (As an ex broadcast recordist I can place a mic under clothing and still get perfect audio, but not a skill some of the "pros" can achieve). And the speaker choice... well it looks like he just services discos... ha.

When I shoot events for video, it is often for a 3rd party and so I have a strict requirement to be invisible. Intelligent placement, a long lens on an ENG style camera, tripod and the ability to hold long lens shots on the shoulder for extended periods is essential - as well as a ninja-stealth like ability to move decisively and with minimal fuss. All basic stuff, but it is amazing how few "pros" get this.

I once filmed a wedding and during the wedding breakfast the bride was worried that I'd gone home early because she couldn't see me - except that I'd been in the room the whole time, and got every shot. Sometimes I was just 20-30 ft away. Now I know I'm not that invisible, but I must have been doing something right.

Again, it is balancing the needs of the event above the need to get the shots we may want.

It is a shame that the events / wedding / bar mitzvah / parties / corporate industry is so plagued with poor experience and ineptitude. And it is usually up to us to suffer the consequences, along with those who have booked them - assuming a pro job would be offered.

Not long back I had a lighting engineer with an uncontrollable smoke machine and poor light placement - and it took a perverse pleasure knowing that it would destroy any photographs. It took the intervention of my pleas to the event coordinator to make a change, (which maintained the same result but allowed difficult but attainable photography). Again, a lack of care to the event as a whole, and only seeing his own area as important.

Grrrr...



Sep 16, 2017 at 02:47 AM
InSanE
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


In fact some couples like to show off their vendors. The more photographers, videographers, lights, cranes, drones on show... the better


Sep 16, 2017 at 04:00 AM
glort
Offline
• • • •
[X]
p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


ashton lamont wrote:
However, my own experience is that the moment a vendor apparently has "broadcast experience" I think "oh dear god nooooo!!!"



I hear you on that!
Same as they say hey have broadcast or television quality cameras. Says to me straight off they have the entirely wrong gear for the job and are too ignorant to realise it.

Done so many weddings where the video guys want to light the church or reception up like a TV studio.... only they can't and the result is blinding lights in everyone's faces with weird shadows and annoying the guts out of everyone there.

And the worst part is, You know they are wankers that don't have a clue and it's all for nothing.

Love the "Audio Engineer". Set up ugly and inappropriate gear in a room where anyone speaking normally would have been heard clearly and easily in any part of the room.
Ya!

Can't say I have seen that before. Often the celebrant will have a little portable PA with a hand held Mic and on occasion they will have a lapel Mic and put one on the groom as well.
More than amply sufficient.



Sep 17, 2017 at 07:03 PM
IrishDino
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


I don't really mind the audio setup in the photo a few posts above.

I mean, it's an undecorated bland conference room. Obviously there's absolutely no where to hide the mics/speaker.



Sep 18, 2017 at 07:07 AM
glort
Offline
• • • •
[X]
p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


ZachOly wrote:
I don't really mind the audio setup in the photo a few posts above.

I mean, it's an undecorated bland conference room. Obviously there's absolutely no where to hide the mics/speaker.


Thing is, why have them at all?
Seemed like a small and quiet room, why would you need mics for anyone to be heard in there?
Groom probably mumbled uninteligbly anyway, celebrant should have known to speak up to be heard, seems like overkill to me to set all that up when a portable PA and a hand held mic would have done it.

Not worried about it in the pics, just seemed needless in the first place and it was more trouble than it worth in the end.

But, 'ya know, it's a wedding. Girls pay thousands for a dress they wear once and has the resale value of used toilet paper. Their attendants pay hundreds for a dress they often hate and wouldn't be seen dead in anywhere else anyway. They pay more hundreds for crap to hang on the ends of the church pews, through the nose for overpriced floral arrangements, and tens of thousands for sub standard meals cooked 3 days before and reheated half the guests don't eat.
Guess paying a few more hundred for a sound engineer don't matter whether you could easily be heard anyway or not. :0)



Sep 18, 2017 at 08:14 AM
IrishDino
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


Audio guy most likely didn't know the room beforehand. Is it 3 rows of seating with standing room behind? Mics are most likely for the video feed. Bride probably told him she wanted a speaker. Who knows. We're all just vendors trying to do our best.

But if you're going to knock the audio/video guy, why not also knock the decorator who couldn't even be bothered to iron the table runners?



Sep 18, 2017 at 08:39 AM
ashton lamont
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


ZachOly wrote:
Audio guy most likely didn't know the room beforehand. Is it 3 rows of seating with standing room behind? Mics are most likely for the video feed. Bride probably told him she wanted a speaker. Who knows. We're all just vendors trying to do our best.

But if you're going to knock the audio/video guy, why not also knock the decorator who couldn't even be bothered to iron the table runners?


OK I'll give you more info as I was there :- )

The other of the pair of foreground speakers was right next to me in the position from which I posted the 2nd of the two images in my last post. It was totally unnecessary and it inhibited my view.

The audio engineer was only doing audio - no video - and he had an assistant. There were a few more rows of seats out of view of the photos but not a biggie. The audio guy had a big mixer on a desk behind the last set of seats and was running a laptop from it as well. I did ask if he could simultaneously record to a spare USB drive of mine but he didn't seem to know how to do that and I had no time left.

I shot photos and video which I often do.

On this occasion I had one full-size video cam on a tripod in the same position from which I was shooting stills. I also had 3 other video cams - this time small to hide. One next to the main video cam using a friction arm to the tripod for an alternative viewpoint. One at the back of the room taking in the front. And the 4th was behind a window curtain as in the centre of the 1st posted photo.

I had one Zoom H1 hidden in the flower arrangement on the top table, easily enough to record the bride and groom, the registrar, and the readers.

I've done this probably hundreds of times, Its very straightforward to record video in full from multiple positions in quite static parts of the day such as the ceremony and the speeches.

I do the multi-cam editing using Vegas Pro. I tend to use dSLR's now - especially the 5D Mark IV's though on this occasion I used video cams. I also use the Magic Lantern firmware on some older dSLR's.

Yep, that set up for audio was just silly. I should of shot a photo illustrating the boom pole on a stand that had been in position earlier.

A totally different scenario is this:

http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/10/495-masl/images/069-7857-06_masl.jpg

The bride and groom in this church are "miles" from any hidden audio recorders. They stay there the whole time. The priest on the right has a lav mic but not inclined to use one of mine as well. So I had a Zoom H1 clamped to the flower arrangement just to the right of the priest (seated). The reader on the stone lectern (centre in photo) is one of four individuals. I had another Zoom H1 clamped next to the flower arrangement to the left of the stone lectern. There is no place to clamp a recorder to the actual lectern. I had another H1 on a lightstand to record from a speaker that is permanently high up in the church; that enables me to get something usable when the priest is near the altar and far from the groom.

And before you ask - no you can't get access to the church's mixer even if you want to isk it working properly.

Finally, I had a Sennheiser lav via a G3 wireless recorder on the groom, recording to a Zoom H4n. You'll see him in this shot - groom on the right, lav just under the rose.

http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/10/495-masl/images/048-4045-05_masl.jpg

I'm sure Lee will be very familiar with putting lavs on girls inside thighs and in hair, and lavs under guys clothing using special tape, but for many weddings even if the "talent" is up for wearing a lav in the first place its often the case that there isn't enough time.

Oh Zack - in my area - the south of the UK - very rarely do I see those runners / sheets ironed.

Pete



Sep 18, 2017 at 10:11 AM
Jefzor
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


deepbluejh wrote:
Good videography is a very intrusive art.


Bad videography is also very intrusive.



Sep 19, 2017 at 06:06 PM
BSPhotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


...and then some times the venue is classy and beautiful, the party is going strong, the DJ sounds good....


...but his setup looks like this:







Sep 20, 2017 at 10:40 AM
MRomine
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


BSPhotog wrote:
...and then some times the venue is classy and beautiful, the party is going strong, the DJ sounds good....

...but his setup looks like this:


Gotta love the midwest, camo attire always a great first choice for the Ritz.



Sep 20, 2017 at 01:27 PM
BSPhotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


Yup. Two big PA speakers on the floor, a tangled mess of wires. At least there were no stupid laser lights--mostly because there where no lights at all.



Sep 20, 2017 at 02:44 PM
LeeSimms
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


I worked with the bestest nicest DJ the other day with a super tight rig. Two satellites and one sub. Vinyl. He had it going on. Played Ramsey Lewis Sun Goddess during cocktails. That guy was all class.


Sep 20, 2017 at 03:15 PM
BSPhotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Last night: Me + 4 videographers.


LeeSimms wrote:
I worked with the bestest nicest DJ the other day with a super tight rig. Two satellites and one sub. Vinyl. He had it going on. Played Ramsey Lewis Sun Goddess during cocktails. That guy was all class.


Sounds classy, I bet he managed his cables and had a speaker stand or two



Sep 21, 2017 at 03:31 AM
1      
2
       end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.