Home · Register · Software · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

WB in the Dark
  
 
OntheRez
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · WB in the Dark


Once again its volleyball season, and I'm back to the dank gym (where I'll be till BBK is over). The building is 60+ years old and has had no maintenance in at least 20 years. Two of the lights are out. Two have lost their fresnels. Early in the season, there is fading light in the west windows. (Gym runs east-west.) As the match progresses, things get darker.

I have to shoot at ISO 12800 so with an Av of f/2.8 I can get a Tv of 640 - and sometimes that doesn't really stop the ball. (Let's not even talk about NR )

The old varnish (no clue how old it is) goes towards yellow. Back against the north wall, there's a greenish cast. In short bursts, I often get the hue shifting as I catch the 60 cycle hum. (Blue, yellow, red.) Also if I shoot north, things are darker - bleachers out. If I shoot south, it's lighter - bleachers in - thus less area. The reddish wood does wild things to the WB. Oh, and of course, the Raider's colors are red and white.

I've always just run with AWB as frankly I can't imagine finding 18% grey. Obviously I don't know enough about white balance even though I've been trying to read up on it.

As you can imagine, it takes some fiddling to get a shot ready on deadline.

So here are three SOOC shots illustrating a bit of the challenge. It would be really nice if I could get a setting that would capture a "truer" color.

Thoughts and suggestions from those who are better at this than I am?

(1Dx II with f/2.8 70-200 and 24-70.)





Sort of dark yellow/brown??







Could graze sheep in the bleachers.







More light? How long? Swing from net line to base line and …




Sep 07, 2017 at 05:22 PM
15Bit
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · WB in the Dark


Can you get access before/after the game, or on a day when they aren't playing? You could then take a few calibration shots with a neutral grey card


Sep 07, 2017 at 05:27 PM
Clicky94
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · WB in the Dark


Just do a "click on " white balance on their white shirts when you process the shots, obviously this will work better if you shoot in raw and not jpg.

With different lighting conditions depending on which way you point the camera AWB is unlikely to get it right because it is adjusting WB each time according to what the camera thinks is right, much better to use a fixed WB and adjust it yourself afterwards.

Edited on Sep 07, 2017 at 06:30 PM · View previous versions



Sep 07, 2017 at 06:15 PM
msalvetti
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · WB in the Dark


Have you tried anti-flicker to help with the cycling lights?


Sep 07, 2017 at 06:29 PM
msalvetti
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · WB in the Dark


Robert,

Quick unrelated question - don't you shoot on a Native American reservation? It looks like, based on the banners on the wall, that the team name is the Red Raiders? That's precisely the kind of name that we're talking about banning here in Massachusetts as being derogatory.

Not intending to start anything, just find it interesting...

Mark



Sep 07, 2017 at 06:35 PM
gregfountain
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · WB in the Dark


Not sure what software you are using Robert, but in the first image, the referee's stand is pretty close to gray. Try using the WB dropper on that wide section in the middle of the ref, and see if that get's it close. In the second photo, try the floor line that looks gray. If the first is good, try applying to the set to see if it's close enough to fine tune the images you want to use.


Sep 07, 2017 at 07:46 PM
Herb
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · WB in the Dark


I would just buy this and get close enough....

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/896299-REG/Vivitar_viv_wb_82u_86mm_White_Balance_Cap.html

I wouldnt make a big deal out of it....its not like photographers are lining up to get this gig....



Sep 07, 2017 at 10:00 PM
scalesusa
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · WB in the Dark


With the lighting varying in different parts of the gym, and changing with time, there is not a lot more that you can do. You could use a color checker and calibrate the image in lightroom, but it would only be good for that particular lighting situation.



Sep 07, 2017 at 11:41 PM
gfiksel
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · WB in the Dark


Long time ago I proposed to use coffee filters for custom white balance http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/64826/0
You might want to try it, it's royalties free .



Sep 08, 2017 at 12:28 AM
TeamSpeed
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · WB in the Dark


I just take some test shots and dial in a Kelvin number in the K wb setting. I then store that in one my Cx settings so I don't have to remember it the next time I shoot in that venue.


Sep 08, 2017 at 01:59 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Paul Mo
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · WB in the Dark


I'd find a scissor lift and swap out those old and blown bulbs.


Sep 08, 2017 at 02:04 AM
NCAndy
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · WB in the Dark


I shoot in a gym like that. The color from the walls, stands, and court bleeds into everything. I think the best you can do is try to get the uniforms as close to correct as possible, but the skin tones are going to pick up some of the color cast from the surroundings. I think you're dealing with multiple light temperatures, the actual lights, and the bounce fill from those lights. Without strobing from above and overriding the existing lights you just have to do the best you can. You can use a while balance card to get close but each corner will be a bit different.


Sep 08, 2017 at 02:27 AM
OntheRez
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · WB in the Dark


msalvetti wrote:
Robert,

Quick unrelated question - don't you shoot on a Native American reservation? It looks like, based on the banners on the wall, that the team name is the Red Raiders? That's precisely the kind of name that we're talking about banning here in Massachusetts as being derogatory.

Not intending to start anything, just find it interesting...

Mark


Mark,

Understand your concern - I think. Having been exiled to MA once when I was young, I can say with some authority that we're in different universes. We are on the western edge of the Tohono O'odham nation. One of the clans - the Hia Ced (multiple spellings) - is known as the "Sand People." They practiced the ultimate desert craft as they lived mostly in what European descendants would call uninhabitable. I went out with some of the older men once. They could find water seeps where I would have sworn no water could exist. Remarkable.

Hia Ced land was "seized" when PD (Phelps-Dodge - a good Boston company turned what were century old copper diggings into a massive open pit mine. The Hia Ced mostly live in Ajo, go to school at AHS (play sports), and are just sort of here like everyone else. We play both TO high schools at least 10x a year, and I've never heard anyone (at least from down here in the Sonora) even squeak about the name.

FWIW. The Red Raider mascot is an ugly sort of ferocious pirate looking thing with a Bowie knife in his mouth. The Lady Raider is much better looking, but still has the knife so they're not to be trifled with. (Or so they would have us believe At the gym in the original school - a remarkably beautiful set of buildings from the time when there were 8,000 people here - the mascot is of course at center court, and frankly it looks like a Disney loony toon. He's gotten much meaner as time has passed.

So I have no clue if we are PC or not. Frankly the TO, the Mexicano, the Anglo, the old farts from up north, and the few black folks in town all just sort of live here. It's not all sweetness and light, but when everyone is working hard simply stay even, trivialities - like a school mascot - just aren't important. (I can say that when the BLM declared the Hia Ced cemetery "illegal" there were a whole lot of people standing out there staring down the bulldozers - and a lot of them weren't TO.)

As for those with advice: 15bit, I can get into the gym most anytime and could try a grey card, but … As others have noted, there is so much variability in the lighting. So I wait till it's dark. Do I shoot towards the north? (Darker, greener.) Do I shoot towards the south. (Brownish, but lighter.) The east end has better light since that’s were the doors and concession are. Then there's the problem of the dark spots where the lights are burned out. And the opposite where the fresnels are gone. It's like the girls are standing under the glory of god.

I'd sort of figured there wasn't a predictable way to set WB in these conditions, but was hoping somebody had a magic bullet. There's no way I can change WB on the fly. Volleyball is absolutely the hardest sport to shoot. Every other ball sport has a direction, a flow. In VB, the serve is the only time I have a clue where the ball is. After that, it could hit the beams, the back wall, come off the net, dug from the floor, killed, or careen off and hit the photog. (Last night

The lights aren't florescent or tungsten. Definitely not daylight and no one has a clue what the Kelvin spectrum might be.

So I guess I'll keep it on AWB and use the few tricks I've learned. Keep the home side of the court on my right and the visiting side to my left. Out my left eye, I get a clue when the serve happens. Might have a chance of catching more action. Oh, and whomever said it's "poor form" to put the hammer down has never shot VB. Everything is done in bursts. Got to love that 1DxII 14fps. I do need it. (≈ 600 clicks last night. Ended up with maybe a dozen decent shots and three real keepers. Better than average. At f/2.8 there isn't much DOF.)

Anyway, long detour. Hope it was interesting for anyone who went along for the ride. I'll try a few of the ideas suggested - but I'm all there is here who's willing (and capable) to work for almost nothing so the kids get credit and support for what they do.

Money's nice, but there are far more valuable things in life.

Robert Sorrels
Ajo Az




Sep 08, 2017 at 02:52 AM
dclark
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · WB in the Dark


If you shoot RAW, it does not matter how you have WB set in the camera. All that does is record in the metadata what the camera measured for the scene which the image processing SW (e.g. LR) uses as the starting point. If it is wrong the initial rendering of the color is off, but LR can change it with no loss of image information. The metadata indicates you are shooting a 1DXII in Raw and processing with LR on a Mac, so you are OK.

Find something that is neutral in the scene, then use the eye-dropper to set the WB. The white jerseys look good (see clicky94 suggestion above). You do not need an 18% gray. It is best if the neutral object is not too white or too black, but I would guess the white jerseys will work fine.

If that is not good enough, go to an art supplies store, buy a large gray art board, stand it up in the bleachers on the other side behind the action. Get a few shots of it during the match so you can use it to set WB. If you don't like the look of the art board in the shots, clone it out.

Dave



Sep 08, 2017 at 02:59 AM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · WB in the Dark


NCAndy wrote:
I shoot in a gym like that. The color from the walls, stands, and court bleeds into everything. I think the best you can do is try to get the uniforms as close to correct as possible, but the skin tones are going to pick up some of the color cast from the surroundings. I think you're dealing with multiple light temperatures, the actual lights, and the bounce fill from those lights. Without strobing from above and overriding the existing lights you just have to do the best you can. You can use a while balance card to get close
...Show more

Yup, it is what it is ... a mixed bag of color.

I'd test shoot a card at the net, and let if ride from there.

I would make two diff test shots, one when there is a lot of ambient light coming in from outside, and one when you have little / no ambient light, and are 100% on house lights.

Early in the match ... (still shooting RAW of course), I'd go fixed with the K number from the early testing, and at the next match adjust toward the 100% house lights (or split the diff if not 100% house yet) K number.

Since you're shooting raw, you've always got that in your hip pocket ... but at least you'd know your starting points. After a bit, you'd learn to know that the diff areas need X or Y adjustment in post based on your time of day / area.



Sep 08, 2017 at 03:12 AM
NCAndy
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · WB in the Dark


On the 1DX2 when using AWB, you have the choice to use Ambient or Neutral priority for the whites. You might be aware of that. You might try Neutral so white is more white and less yellow tint if you have it set the other way.


Sep 08, 2017 at 03:19 AM
Imagemaster
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · WB in the Dark


Clicky94 wrote:
Just do a "click on " white balance on their white shirts when you process the shots, obviously this will work better if you shoot in raw and not jpg.


Ditto. Besides, you should know that when shooting in the dark, you should be using Black Balance, not White Balance.



Sep 08, 2017 at 03:23 AM
Mike_5D
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · WB in the Dark


scalesusa wrote:
With the lighting varying in different parts of the gym, and changing with time, there is not a lot more that you can do. You could use a color checker and calibrate the image in lightroom, but it would only be good for that particular lighting situation.


And it would be wrong a split second later. I've shot in a gym with similarly bad lighting. I think the last game I shot I was at ISO 16,000 to get 1/500' @ f/2.8. I just shoot raw and get the colors as best I can in post. This can mean adjusting each shot individually since the lights are rapidly cycling between blue/yellow and magenta/green. Don't let the varying color of the lights across the room stop you from getting the angles and shots you need.



Sep 08, 2017 at 04:56 AM
Eyvind Ness
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · WB in the Dark


On the newest generation of cameras (e.g. 1DX2, 5D4 and 5DSR) you can shoot with "AWB, with White priority". I find it very helpful where ambient turns dominant/ugly. Also, anti-flickering helps a lot (when fluorescent lighting is present).



Sep 08, 2017 at 08:30 AM
Milan Hutera
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · WB in the Dark


Overally the first one actually looks pretty good to me. Not that bad at all. It has a slight green cast to it, so a click towards magenta should fix that. The temperature is a little warm, so you can bring that down a bit as well if you shoot RAW. But as you go "cooler" you will also have to raise the exposure slightly. Again, generally not a big of a deal if you shoot RAW or slightly overexpose during the capture. The second one has a heavy green cast and the warmth is about the same as on the first photo. The third one is a lot warmer with no apparent color cast at this particular setting, but that might change as you start to adjust the warmth.

With conditions like this, your best settings is to shoot RAW and then spend the time fixing it in post. But since you said the lighs cycle, the chances are photos will never be 100% fantastic.



Sep 08, 2017 at 08:55 AM
1
       2       end






FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username     Reset password