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Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?
  
 
jaybird555
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p.10 #1 · p.10 #1 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


How do you get four elephants in a VW ? Two in the front and two in the back of course. How are they cramming soooo many mp in sensors that havent changed their physical size. Full format sensor measures 36x24mm which is approximately the same size as 35mm film.



Sep 20, 2017 at 12:23 AM
RobDickinson
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p.10 #2 · p.10 #2 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


number of pixels is easy we've far more dense sensors around that 50-70mp ff ones.


Sep 20, 2017 at 12:25 AM
jaybird555
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p.10 #3 · p.10 #3 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


RobDickinson wrote:
number of pixels is easy we've far more dense sensors around that 50-70mp ff ones.

And what do you do about noise ?



Sep 20, 2017 at 02:31 AM
RobDickinson
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p.10 #4 · p.10 #4 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


uh give no fucks?

At base iso you will get more detail and for the same prin size you should be fine at higher iso within reason.

Sure the 5ds/r isnt the best at high iso but you buy it for low iso resolution.



Sep 20, 2017 at 03:27 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.10 #5 · p.10 #5 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


jaybird555 wrote:
And what do you do about noise ?


The ironic answer:

2003: If you increase MP from 3 to 4 you are going to have too much noise.
2004: If you increase MP from 4 to 6 you are going to have too much noise.
2005: If you increase MP from 6 to 8 you are going to have too much noise.
2006: If you increase MP from 8 to 10 you are going to have too much noise.
2007: If you increase MP from 10 to 12 you are going to have too much noise.
2008: If you increase MP from 12 to15 you are going to have too much noise.
2009: If you increase MP from 15 to 18 you are going to have too much noise.
2010: If you increase MP from 18 to 20 you are going to have too much noise.
2011: If you increase MP from 22 to 24 you are going to have too much noise.
2012: If you increase MP from 24 to 28 you are going to have too much noise.
2013: If you increase MP from 28 to 30 you are going to have too much noise.
2014: If you increase MP from 30 to 36 you are going to have too much noise.
2015: If you increase MP from 36 to 42 you are going to have too much noise.
2016: If you increase MP from 42 to 51 you are going to have too much noise.
2017: If you increase MP from 51 to 70 you are going to have too much noise.
2018: If you increase MP from 70 to 100 you are going to have too much noise.
...

;-)

A serious answer has several parts. First, of course, that concern has been raised for as long as we've had digital cameras — you'd think that by now noise would be super awful if it were true given how much we've increased photo site density. Yet, modern cameras, including the highest MP cameras control noise much better than the earlier cameras. In addition, what noise there is becomes smaller and smaller "grained," hence less and less visible in an image of a given size.

And, to be blunt, noise in digital photographs is rarely an issue, and when it is one can almost always deal with it in post.

Don't think you need to worry about this.


Edited on Sep 20, 2017 at 05:10 PM · View previous versions



Sep 20, 2017 at 06:10 AM
alundeb
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p.10 #6 · p.10 #6 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


jaybird555 wrote:
And what do you do about noise ?


Noise in the image as a whole doesn't depend much on pixel density. For low ISO, where high resolution cameras are mostly used, there can actually be lower read noise after downsampling for comparison to lower resolution cameras.



Sep 20, 2017 at 06:52 AM
fraga
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p.10 #7 · p.10 #7 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


gdanmitchell wrote:
The ironic answer:

2003: If you increase MP from 3 to 4 you are going to have too much noise.
2004: If you increase MP from 4 to 6 you are going to have too much noise.
2005: If you increase MP from 6 to 8 you are going to have too much noise.
2006: If you increase MP from 8 to 10 you are going to have too much noise.
2007: If you increase MP from 10 to 12 you are going to have too much noise.
2008: If you increase MP from 12 to15 you are going to have too much noise.
2009: If you
...Show more


If memory serves me correctly, around 10 years ago (give or take a few) we had a distinctive FM member named Brainiac who tried to prove this point almost everyday.
He was on a mission. He provided images to back up his claims. Given that he was an accomplished photographer and a man gifted with a well above average intelligence level, he gave detailed explanations of his claims.

He did it nearly everyday. He really wanted to change people's perception on this.
Until one day, where he just grew tired.
And in frustration, he left FM.

When people really believe something, it is very hard to change their minds.



Sep 21, 2017 at 09:55 AM
alundeb
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p.10 #8 · p.10 #8 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


fraga wrote:
If memory serves me correctly, around 10 years ago (give or take a few) we had a distinctive FM member named Brainiac who tried to prove this point almost everyday.
He was on a mission. He provided images to back up his claims. Given that he was an accomplished photographer and a man gifted with a well above average intelligence level, he gave detailed explanations of his claims.

He did it nearly everyday. He really wanted to change people's perception on this.
Until one day, where he just grew tired.
And in frustration, he left FM.

When people really believe something, it is very hard
...Show more

His work was not in vain.

He specifically went at the comparions at DPReview, which at that time only showed native resolution. They now have the option for comparing at normalized resolution. Although he wanted upsampling not downsampling, it is progress.

At that time, there were only small resolution differences between sensors of the same size, 21 MP vs 12 MP at most. Now we have more pronounced resolution differences, and can easily see that the pixel density impact on noise is trivial:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_1=canon_eos1dxii&attr13_2=sony_a7rii&attr13_3=sony_a7sii&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=12800&attr16_1=12800&attr16_2=12800&attr16_3=12800&attr171_2=1&normalization=print&widget=1&x=-0.8719269102990033&y=0.23088643477233803



Sep 21, 2017 at 10:30 AM
rhtml
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p.10 #9 · p.10 #9 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


People do need high MP bodies. What people don’t need are high MP bodies
full of low quality small pixels, which is the reason why the 5Ds wasn’t a success,
while the Sony A7RII and now the Nikon D850 are.

And what about reducing the size of a high MP photo in post processing to
somehow “regain the quality”? Firstly, if you are thinking about reducing the size,
why buy a high MP body in the first place?

Anyway, grouping a few small pixels into a larger one in software DOES NOT
automatically produce something better than leaving the larger pixel alone in hardware.
Otherwise, using a smart phone and stitching would automatically give you
superior photos over using a DSLR.

Each pixel has wires around it. The precious light hitting on the wires are wasted.
Think about the amount of light wasted when you divide a pixel, already struggling
with the light it is getting, due to inferior sensor technology, into even smaller ones…

So no, I am not ready for the 5Ds II




Sep 21, 2017 at 11:59 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.10 #10 · p.10 #10 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


rhtml wrote:
People do need high MP bodies. What people don’t need are high MP bodies
full of low quality small pixels, which is the reason why the 5Ds wasn’t a success,
while the Sony A7RII and now the Nikon D850 are.

And what about reducing the size of a high MP photo in post processing to
somehow “regain the quality”? Firstly, if you are thinking about reducing the size,
why buy a high MP body in the first place?

Anyway, grouping a few small pixels into a larger one in software DOES NOT
automatically produce something better than leaving the larger pixel alone in hardware.
Otherwise, using a smart
...Show more

1) The 5DS is a success, hugely in fact, to the point that it still sells well and now there will be a successor. The A72R has backside illumination and a lower resolution, yet doesn't blow the 5DS away (better yes, but not substantially, and they nearly equal out starting at ISO 1600), especially when you equalize the resolutions. The Sony does indeed have lower shadow read noise across the range, but the 5DS doesn't have the new Canon sensor either. I am sure the MKII will.

2) Do you even know the design of the sensors these days? All electronics lie under the microlens, not in the path of the light and certainly not alongside the photo sensors sucking up spillover light and taking up valuable real estate.The term "gapless" was coined years ago.

3) Some people need high MP. For a large part of the population though, it isn't a huge need. Of course what is high MP these days? It is a subjective term, and means little in discussions. For some, 20Mpx is high, for others 70. It is just like the discussions around IQ and acceptable noise levels, all without any quantitative baseline for comparison.

Bottom line, you decide for what you shoot what type of resolution you need and what ISO levels you would be shooting with, and how high a DR scene you might want to shoot. Then decide your budget, and buy what is sufficient for that. There are a ton of great options these days, crop bodies and FF. Also, if you take the time to learn post processing techniques for managing that IQ and mitigating the noise you do get, you can net better results than those that shoot with a better camera but don't know how to or take the time to post process.



Sep 21, 2017 at 12:12 PM
 

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AlexDROP
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p.10 #11 · p.10 #11 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


TeamSpeed wrote:
Also, if you take the time to learn post processing techniques for managing that IQ and mitigating the noise you do get, you can net better results than those that shoot with a better camera but don't know how to or take the time to post process.


Well said!
Gear forums discussions are always the same. So what determines a successful picture: gear or skills and if both then at what ratio? Top-rated gear is beneficial yet not essential for a good picture IF another (lower-rated) piece of gear can do the same job in technical terms. Your pet picture in a sunny day printed 6x8 will look equal / have the same good IQ whatever modern sensor it is taken on. So for sunny day captures printed small/medium size all modern cameras are indistingishable.






Sep 21, 2017 at 12:53 PM
rolette
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p.10 #12 · p.10 #12 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


gdanmitchell wrote:
And, to be blunt, noise in digital photographs is rarely an issue, and when it is one can almost always deal with it in post.


You don't shoot indoor sports or night games under stadium lights much I guess



Sep 21, 2017 at 01:51 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.10 #13 · p.10 #13 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


rolette wrote:
You don't shoot indoor sports or night games under stadium lights much I guess


I do, all the way up to ISO 25600... I agree with Dan, with judicious use of camera settings, and good raw/JPG processing, you can mitigate the noise in the models that have come out over the past few years.

I hit ISO 16000 often.


Larger Version


Edited on Sep 21, 2017 at 04:50 PM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2017 at 01:57 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.10 #14 · p.10 #14 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


rolette wrote:
You don't shoot indoor sports or night games under stadium lights much I guess


I spent three years on a project photographing professional classical musicians, including in very poorly lit backstage areas. Some of this work has been reproduced at post size and larger for commercial purposes. It looks great.

I also photograph migratory birds in flight in twilight, basically until there is too little light to photograph any more.

But, no I don't photograph indoor sports or night games under artificial light.

Dan




Sep 21, 2017 at 04:47 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.10 #15 · p.10 #15 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


rhtml wrote:
People do need high MP bodies. What people don’t need are high MP bodies
full of low quality small pixels, which is the reason why the 5Ds wasn’t a success...


Uh, no, it has been a success. It isn't "full of low quality small pixels." It produces excellent image quality.

I just wrote a short article explaining some of what we can now do with modern high MP cameras like the 5DsR and the newer bodies from Sony, Nikon, and others. The quick summary is that we can expose to retain maximum image data and then work the file in post in all sorts of extremely flexible ways.

Link: What You Get Is Not What You See

Dan


Edited on Sep 21, 2017 at 05:50 PM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2017 at 04:52 PM
IndyFab
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p.10 #16 · p.10 #16 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


AlexDROP wrote:
Well said!
Gear forums discussions are always the same. So what determines a successful picture: gear or skills and if both then at what ratio? Top-rated gear is beneficial yet not essential for a good picture IF another (lower-rated) piece of gear can do the same job in technical terms. Your pet picture in a sunny day printed 6x8 will look equal / have the same good IQ whatever modern sensor it is taken on. So for sunny day captures printed small/medium size all modern cameras are indistingishable.


Alex, seen your work, and your post processing editing skills are at the top end..




Sep 21, 2017 at 05:28 PM
IndyFab
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p.10 #17 · p.10 #17 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


When it comes to noise in an Image Team Speed is the go to man.. We all could learn a thing or two from him when it comes to noise, just like Alex's post processing skills.


Sep 21, 2017 at 05:30 PM
AlexDROP
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p.10 #18 · p.10 #18 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


IndyFab wrote:
Alex, seen your work, and your post processing editing skills are at the top end..


Thanks, mate. Your skills are not bad either Now I'm your follower on flickr.



Sep 21, 2017 at 05:38 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.10 #19 · p.10 #19 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


You have to know your sensor very well to make the most of it when post processing. Each camera has a different "profile" or feel to the raw data. I have shot the 7D2 at 16K, but I keep the max at 12800 for about all games. When I get a new body to add to the stables, I will shoot high ISO test shots for the first week to develop my NR action for photoshop. The 7D2 and 5D4 have been the first bodies I have been able to use JPG out of camera and then clean them up, a huge time savings, vs before where I would have to mass update raw files, convert to JPG, and then still run actions.

ISO 12800 on the 7D2





Here is a 25600 from the 5D4... Not outstanding, but it shows that you can crop and cleanup while still having a pretty good end result.







Edited on Sep 21, 2017 at 05:49 PM · View previous versions



Sep 21, 2017 at 05:42 PM
jcolwell
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p.10 #20 · p.10 #20 · Are you ready for the Canon 5DS R MARK II?


fraga wrote:
If memory serves me correctly, around 10 years ago (give or take a few) we had a distinctive FM member named Brainiac ...


Richard George, London UK



Sep 21, 2017 at 05:48 PM
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