Home · Register · Software · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2      
3
       4       end
  

Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM
  
 
virtualrain
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Wow. The sample variation on this lens says it all. Yikes!


Sep 04, 2017 at 08:40 PM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


virtualrain wrote:
Wow. The sample variation on this lens says it all. Yikes!


It's above average for a 70-200mm f/2.8, but not terribly so. It is just the reality of this class of lens. Big, heavy, relatively fast aperture zoom. A recipe for inconsistent.



Sep 04, 2017 at 11:55 PM
chez
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Brandon Dube wrote:
It's above average for a 70-200mm f/2.8, but not terribly so. It is just the reality of this class of lens. Big, heavy, relatively fast aperture zoom. A recipe for inconsistent.


Sure...but when you add expensive, you expect better.



Sep 05, 2017 at 12:50 AM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


chez wrote:
Sure...but when you add expensive, you expect better.


This is expensive: https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses-accessories/cine-lenses/zeiss-70-200mm-t29-cz2-cinema-zoom-imperial-pl-mount

A 23-element lens with 3 aspheres, 2 fluor-phosphate crowns, two focusing motors, and an image stabilizer for $2600 is very inexpensive.

If you asked a US precision optics manufacture (e.g. Panavision, Jenoptik, JML) to build the same thing to the same print, they would probably want $30k for Sony's lens. Many compromises were made to get it to that price point, even if it "feels" expensive.



Sep 05, 2017 at 12:54 AM
chez
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Brandon Dube wrote:
This is expensive: https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses-accessories/cine-lenses/zeiss-70-200mm-t29-cz2-cinema-zoom-imperial-pl-mount

A 23-element lens with 3 aspheres, 2 fluor-phosphate crowns, two focusing motors, and an image stabilizer for $2600 is very inexpensive.

If you asked a US precision optics manufacture (e.g. Panavision, Jenoptik, JML) to build the same thing to the same print, they would probably want $30k for Sony's lens. Many compromises were made to get it to that price point, even if it "feels" expensive.


Expensive is a relative term. A $2600 lens is certainly not cheap on many people's radar...and I'm sure many plunking down that change don't expect to play the test - return - test - return game. Not when other manufactures have the same lens costing substantially less with better quality control.



Sep 05, 2017 at 01:21 AM
Bill Hollinger
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


GMPhotography wrote:
It has to be . I rented it 3 times and found at 200mm not very good as i had to back off to about 193mm. This is at F4

In my mind Sony had issues when this first came out and than fixed those issues in production. So if I bought one than i would buy the latest production unit I could find. Thats my opinion and may not be fact.


That's interesting. I tried one from Lens Rentals, and after using it for two days I purchased it - it was new so I paid retail list for it, but at least I was able to test the lens first (on an A9 and A7r). When I bought the A7r I tried three different copies of the 24-70 f2.8 and sent them all back. Hopefully whatever the issue was has been resolved by now.



Sep 05, 2017 at 05:34 PM
Ayoh
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


I am surprised about the reviews of this lens claiming poor sharpness. I have tested two copies bought from the same store at the same time and they were both exceptionally good - if the competition is better I find it hard to believe. I tested the copies on an A7rii at a landscape focused at infinity. Looking at the extreme corners at 70mm and 200mm with F2.8 both lenses were very sharp. One copy had one corner at 70mm which was slightly softer than the others but the difference was difficult to see. By far the sharpest zoom lens I have ever used.
I did focus the 4 corners manually though so that may have compensated for any field curvature if it was present, but I would not expect that to be an issue for a telephoto focused at infinity.
I guess the manufacturing variation must be high for this lens and I just sampled from a good batch. I do seem to be quite lucky as all my Sony lenses have not had any obvious decentering expect for one - a 70-200mm f4 G which had to be returned.



Sep 06, 2017 at 07:46 AM
Ayoh
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


RCicala wrote:
Oh, I do despise testing this lens. But because I get so misquoted about it, let me throw out a couple of things.

1) It's about as good as the Canon 70-200 f/28 IS II at 70mm and 135mm. At 200mm it's not quite as sharp in the center, and has more copy-to-copy variation. But it's not awful, it's still good.

2) Neither of the above are nearly as good as the Nikon ED. Nothing else is either.

3) The Sony has higher sample variation at 200mm than most other 70-200 f/2.8s, including the Canon, which itself isn't that great
...Show more

Roger, based on your comments here you should update the post linked below as it has inconsistent conclusions.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/01/an-update-and-comparison-of-the-sony-fe-70-200mm-f2-8-gm-oss/

Based on the published out-of-camera resolution chart images the Sony is either misaligned or decentered (as the left side is softer than the right) but despite this appears to be sharper on the right side than both the Canon and Nikon at both 70mm and 200mm. For example, below are the bottom right corners of the published images.

https://imgur.com/a/RrU6H

This may just be a fluke due to sloppy test chart photos or it may suggest that lens is capable of higher sharpness on camera than on your rig. Or it may be that the Sony performs better at close focus distances than infinity and hence the discrepancy between your rig measurements and the test chart measurements (and the results from DXO etc).
The misalignment in the Sony also suggests that the lens is certainly subject to inconsistency and variation.




Sep 06, 2017 at 08:24 AM
virtualrain
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Ayoh wrote:
I did focus the 4 corners manually though so that may have compensated for any field curvature if it was present, but I would not expect that to be an issue for a telephoto focused at infinity.
I guess the manufacturing variation must be high for this lens and I just sampled from a good batch. I do seem to be quite lucky as all my Sony lenses have not had any obvious decentering expect for one - a 70-200mm f4 G which had to be returned.


I'm not sure this technique will reveal if your copy is decentered which is the main issue with copy variation. I believe the proper way to test for decentering is to focus on something at infinity at center and see how the four corners compare in sharpness to the center and each other.



Sep 06, 2017 at 12:39 PM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Ayoh wrote:
Roger, based on your comments here you should update the post linked below as it has inconsistent conclusions.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/01/an-update-and-comparison-of-the-sony-fe-70-200mm-f2-8-gm-oss/

Based on the published out-of-camera resolution chart images the Sony is either misaligned or decentered (as the left side is softer than the right) but despite this appears to be sharper on the right side than both the Canon and Nikon at both 70mm and 200mm. For example, below are the bottom right corners of the published images.

https://imgur.com/a/RrU6H

This may just be a fluke due to sloppy test chart photos or it may suggest that lens is capable of higher sharpness on camera
...Show more

If you take something that is very inconsistent, it could be very good or very poor. The average turns out somewhere in the middle.

We average over the full 2D field to generate the 1D MTF vs Field. So yes, some 70-200 GMs are great on the right side. They're probably garbage on the left side. Maybe the copies of the Canon and Nikon lenses Joey picked up were better aligned at 200mm than the Sony was.

With a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, it is almost random chance.

The MTF bench is orders of magnitude more well controlled than a chart test. It will not accrue substantial error until past 1,000 lp/mm.



Sep 06, 2017 at 06:56 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



RCicala
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Ayoh wrote:
Roger, based on your comments here you should update the post linked below as it has inconsistent conclusions.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/01/an-update-and-comparison-of-the-sony-fe-70-200mm-f2-8-gm-oss/

Based on the published out-of-camera resolution chart images the Sony is either misaligned or decentered (as the left side is softer than the right) but despite this appears to be sharper on the right side than both the Canon and Nikon at both 70mm and 200mm. For example, below are the bottom right corners of the published images.

https://imgur.com/a/RrU6H

This may just be a fluke due to sloppy test chart photos or it may suggest that lens is capable of higher sharpness on camera
...Show more

That's not my article :-)
Lensrentals is a big place with 150 employees and they put out a lot of posts that aren't mine.
I'm just the guy in the back room with all the cool equipment.




Sep 06, 2017 at 09:59 PM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


What does that make me?


Sep 06, 2017 at 10:27 PM
GMPhotography
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


The guy in the front room wanting the cool gear in the back room. Lol

Just kidding

Brandon Dube wrote:
What does that make me?




Sep 06, 2017 at 10:30 PM
RCicala
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Brandon Dube wrote:
What does that make me?


The guy who talks me into buying all the cool gear in the back room?



Sep 06, 2017 at 11:55 PM
GMPhotography
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM



Sure just what you need is a scapegoat to buy gear. I resemble that ya know. Lol


RCicala wrote:
The guy who talks me into buying all the cool gear in the back room?




Sep 06, 2017 at 11:58 PM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


RCicala wrote:
The guy who talks me into buying all the cool gear in the back room?


I can picture Roger and Brandon in the back room testing hundreds of lenses under very loud music. Poor neighbors..



Sep 07, 2017 at 12:02 AM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Fred Miranda wrote:
I can picture Roger and Brandon in the back room testing hundreds of lenses under very loud music. Poor neighbors..


Actually, the first summer I was there Aaron and I did listen to a lot of music at "reasonable volume," so you're not that far off :P We even did a black metal themed movie night...



Sep 07, 2017 at 12:08 AM
Brandon Dube
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


RCicala wrote:
The guy who talks me into buying all the cool gear in the back room?


Well, you bought the imagemaster by yourself. Not sure what I'd have have you get instead, but it's worked well. Maybe a pallet of parts so I can build my own and have Will code the software?



Sep 07, 2017 at 12:12 AM
Ayoh
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


Brandon Dube wrote:
If you take something that is very inconsistent, it could be very good or very poor. The average turns out somewhere in the middle.

We average over the full 2D field to generate the 1D MTF vs Field. So yes, some 70-200 GMs are great on the right side. They're probably garbage on the left side. Maybe the copies of the Canon and Nikon lenses Joey picked up were better aligned at 200mm than the Sony was.

With a 70-200mm f/2.8 lens, it is almost random chance.

The MTF bench is orders of magnitude more well controlled than a chart test. It
...Show more

Ok thanks, so the reported MTF measurements for a single lens are averages at multiple orientations (and poor uniformity brings the MTF down for that lens). But are the deviation bands shown in your variation plots (linked example below) the deviation in the lens-averaged MTF, or the deviation of all your individual MTF data points? i.e. is it analogous to the standard deviation of all your individual MTF data points across many lenses, or the standard error in the averaged MTFs for each lens?







I guess it is the standard error since the maximum values in the 50LP/mm variation bands for the Canon lens above, are higher than the corresponding max value for the Sony lens below, even though we know that at least one of the Sony lenses in your stock is much sharper than the Canon on one side (based on the images referenced here http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1507053/2#14170778)







So I guess your deviation bands will not show the maximum MTF values that were achieved by any one lens at a specific orientation and therefore not reflect the maximum observed performance (which is fine, it makes sense you had to do some averaging). I guess Sony needs to bring the variation down to reflect the potential achievable best in class performance in your charts (as seen on the right side of the lens tested here (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1507053/2#14170778). I think I really did get lucky with the two excellent copies of this lens I tested.




Sep 07, 2017 at 07:21 AM
RCicala
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Jordan at Admiring Light reviews Sony FE 70-200f/2.8 GM


The lines are the average MTF of all the copies that were tested in that run. The area is +/- 1 SD of all the measurements made at that distance off-axis (8 measurements per lens, so 168 and 184 measurements respectively for these two charts.

If a lens measures differently on one side or the other, or if different copies measure differently between each other, both scenarios increase the SD. So with this tool you really can't say which is which. You get a strong hint though when variance is great in the center of the field (near "0") since there's little side-to-side variation near the center. But in this case that thicker red area near "0" on the Sony indicates a lot of copy-to-copy difference even in center sharpness.



Sep 07, 2017 at 12:25 PM
1       2      
3
       4       end






FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2      
3
       4       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username     Reset password