Home · Register · Software · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Alternative Gear & Lenses | Join Upload & Sell

  

The New Biotar 75/1.5
  
 
freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


Looks like it's going to be a reality, since they've raised over seven times their stated goal.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/315452809/the-rising-all-star-team-returns-legendary-biotar

I know the original has been an alt-forum darling and, in top condition collector's jewel, but I didn't expect to see such strong support for the new model. Did anyone here pledge?



Sep 03, 2017 at 07:29 AM
wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


We had this thread on this topic just a few weeks back:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1504313

Not sure how many here pledged?



Sep 03, 2017 at 07:50 AM
Phillip Reeve
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


freaklikeme wrote:
Looks like it's going to be a reality, since they've raised over seven times their stated goal.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/315452809/the-rising-all-star-team-returns-legendary-biotar

I know the original has been an alt-forum darling and, in top condition collector's jewel, but I didn't expect to see such strong support for the new model. Did anyone here pledge?

Has it?



Sep 03, 2017 at 09:22 AM
freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


Phillip Reeve wrote:
Has it?


Oh, yeah. It's fallen out of favor over the years, but when I started here, and 90% of the alt forum was dedicated to adapting Zeiss lenses to Canon and Nikon, the Biotar 75 had the same kind of mystique and reverence Mandler fans give the Summilux 75 today.

I'm not saying I shared the love the for the Biotar (I have an easier time understanding why people pay so much for Summilux). It seems to me that you can get the best of what's special about the Biotar from the Rokkor 85/1.7 or the Canon RF 85/1.9 for much less money, but I'm in no position to judge an unreasonable love for a particular lens. It's because it has fallen out of favor here that I didn't think think the kickstarter campaign would get much traction. I was shocked to see they'd raised over half a million.



Sep 03, 2017 at 06:28 PM
freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


wayne seltzer wrote:
We had this thread on this topic just a few weeks back:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1504313

Not sure how many here pledged?


Yeah, I realized after I created it I had searched the Sony forum instead of the alt.



Sep 03, 2017 at 06:43 PM
Phillip Reeve
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · The New Biotar 75/1.5




freaklikeme wrote:
Oh, yeah. It's fallen out of favor over the years, but when I started here, and 90% of the alt forum was dedicated to adapting Zeiss lenses to Canon and Nikon, the Biotar 75 had the same kind of mystique and reverence Mandler fans give the Summilux 75 today.

I'm not saying I shared the love the for the Biotar (I have an easier time understanding why people pay so much for Summilux). It seems to me that you can get the best of what's special about the Biotar from the Rokkor 85/1.7 or the Canon RF 85/1.9 for much less
...Show more
I am in the same boat, especially because the kickstarter feedback on the "MOG" Trioplan remakes was pretty bad and Net SE is still the company behind it.

I might even get it if people buy the original because of its historic significance but creatively I think most of these very old lenses are very limiting. So I don't get it why people would buy a remake.



Sep 03, 2017 at 06:43 PM
wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


freaklikeme wrote:
Yeah, I realized after I created it I had searched the Sony forum instead of the alt.


No worries, Brad! I was just trying to link the two threads together since there has been not much response here on this forum on this. I like the look of my original Biotar and jt is a fun portrait lens to shoot with. But i also understand most people don't want to spend over $1k on an old lens like this.
I think it is probably wiser to wait till first production lenses come out and reviewed to see if it really has the real Biotar rendering or not.



Sep 04, 2017 at 08:27 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 

        


DavidBM
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · The New Biotar 75/1.5



I dont get why you wouldn't get a modern coated Helios 40 new for 400. It is a little longer at 85 but does have a remarkably similar rendering to the 75 biotar, complete with swirl for better or worse, and much bettet coatings than the original (either original biotar or 'original' helios)
Phillip Reeve wrote:
I am in the same boat, especially because the kickstarter feedback on the "MOG" Trioplan remakes was pretty bad and Net SE is still the company behind it.

I might even get it if people buy the original because of its historic significance but creatively I think most of these very old lenses are very limiting. So I don't get it why people would buy a remake.




Sep 05, 2017 at 03:47 AM
freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


wayne seltzer wrote:
No worries, Brad! I was just trying to link the two threads together since there has been not much response here on this forum on this. I like the look of my original Biotar and jt is a fun portrait lens to shoot with. But i also understand most people don't want to spend over $1k on an old lens like this.
I think it is probably wiser to wait till first production lenses come out and reviewed to see if it really has the real Biotar rendering or not.


I feel the same way about my Mandler 'Cron 90, Wayne, so I get it. I'm guessing we've both probably spent more on old lenses than the bulk of the photography community would find reasonable, but what do they know? Along that line of thinking, I would distrust anyone who told me they could reverse engineer a copy of my 'Cron with the same performance. That's like expecting someone to perfectly reverse engineer your favorite dish from your favorite restaurant. They might get close, but it won't be the same.

So, maybe I'm not getting something about the campaign, but I saw a $1200 pledge gets you a 45% discount on the lens. Doesn't that put the retail price of the lens at $2640? Am I figuring that correctly?



Sep 07, 2017 at 04:41 AM
Lee Saxon
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


I don't understand how anyone has money for this nonsense in a world in which the camera market has shrunk so much. Who is buying this? Hipsters who will use it as a coffee table conversation piece?


Sep 07, 2017 at 07:23 AM
ZoneV
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


freaklikeme wrote:
...Along that line of thinking, I would distrust anyone who told me they could reverse engineer a copy of my 'Cron with the same performance. That's like expecting someone to perfectly reverse engineer your favorite dish from your favorite restaurant. They might get close, but it won't be the same...


For the Triopan and Primoplan lenses they might have the original documents from the engineer who formerly worked for Meyer Goerlitz.
A Trioplan prototyp which I tested was quite good from the rendering. I love companys who allow to play on fairs with their prototype lenses!

Now the Biotar is a different thing, but sometimes there are old production documents sold for example on Ebay. This would be one way.

Patent designs are most times a bit modified, to not give all details away.

But the reverse engineering could be quite good!
I know from a lens company that they buy competitor lenses. Do full mesuremnts on them with their MTF equipment and likely other instruments and cameras. And after this they disassemble the lens and take exact measurements. So they have all the distances and curvatures. They measure the glass refraction indices, for this they most times need to grind and polish the lens to get flat surfaces. So the lens is destroyed, but can be quite good replicated - tolerance fields are still missing. But here one could close get with Monte Carlo tolerance analysis in the design programm.
Still missing is the exact AR coating, and other surface coatings. Not sure about the analysis depth there.

With such analysis they learn new methods / ideas the competition uses, and perhaps could analyse if their patents are hurt.
Furthermore they could compare their own designs / design ideas with the competition lens. So when a bigger customer or product maqnagement ask how their lens works for example at a very small working distance, or with special microlens response, they could easily check and compare with competition.



Sep 07, 2017 at 12:33 PM
freaklikeme
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


ZoneV wrote:
For the Triopan and Primoplan lenses they might have the original documents from the engineer who formerly worked for Meyer Goerlitz.
A Trioplan prototyp which I tested was quite good from the rendering. I love companys who allow to play on fairs with their prototype lenses!

Now the Biotar is a different thing, but sometimes there are old production documents sold for example on Ebay. This would be one way.

Patent designs are most times a bit modified, to not give all details away.

But the reverse engineering could be quite good!
I know from a lens company that they buy competitor lenses.
...Show more

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you can't turn back the clock on glass manufacturing. Methods and materials have changed, haven't they? Wouldn't that impact the performance between the two? Moreover, how do I know the lens you used to test was assembled like mine or suffered the same wear as mine? What if what I really love about my lens has nothing to do with how a new lens would perform?



Sep 08, 2017 at 06:35 AM
ZoneV
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · The New Biotar 75/1.5


For sure the waer would not be copied, each lens has their individual scratches.
The glass has sometimes quite exact new ROHS conforme substitudes. If not they can make a new design with the old results (spherical aberration, image curvature,...) as target values for the design. So the lens radii and distances and galls could vary much, but the result is quite near. It is not a 100% exact copy as your old lens. But even a second old lens will be not 100% the same as yours. But it is questionable if you would see the differences.

With the series production Trioplan 100 lens they write about good AR coating, this is a big difference to the old lens. So there is no 100% contrast and stray light reproduction.



Sep 08, 2017 at 10:04 PM







FM Forums | Alternative Gear & Lenses | Join Upload & Sell

    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username     Reset password