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Archive 2017 · What's so Hot about the D850?

  
 
TeamSpeed
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · What's so Hot about the D850?


Colin F wrote:
In my other thread on the D850 I forgot to mention that other little nicety of the illuminated buttons/controls. In this day & age of technological wonderment, is it really that tough for Canon to implement this? The old "Casio-like" display is bad enough.


The new color screens on the newest offerings from Canon are very nice indeed. As to the top LCD, there doesn't need to be any changes to that, it is easily read in any condition and gives the info I need at a glance. Some things don't need to change, I would rather effort be placed elsewhere.

Illuminated buttons would be okay, but certainly not necessary. How often are people shooting in darkness that they cannot make out their buttons, and don't know where they are even if they do?

I know where my set, menu, zoom, replay and delete buttons are, and can operate them at night. If I need to change settings quickly at night, I can just hit the Q button and change everything from the touch screen.



Sep 01, 2017 at 10:42 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · What's so Hot about the D850?


CanadaMark wrote:
I keep seeing people mention Nikon reliability as a caveat to the D850, but it is grossly overblown and no different than Canon, who has had their fair share of issues over the years ranging from minor to major (just like Nikon). Nearly every Canon body has had issues to varying degrees since the 1DM3 days, the difference is that Nikon is more willing to tarnish their brand image by releasing a voluntary service advisory (not a recall) for every tiny little thing, regardless of the severity and regardless of how many users it affects. They have become hypersensitive about
...Show more

Your assertion that NIkon's reliability is no different than Canon's is incorrect, which I think is evident since you had to reach back 10 years to the 1DM3 for support of the assertion. Since that time Canon has had very few design/manufacturing issues, whereas Nikon has had several (D5000 power issues, D600 chamber/sensor oil issue, D800/E left AF issue affecting upwards of 30% of bodies by my personal sample size of 10 bodies, D750 mirror/shutter design issues).



Sep 01, 2017 at 10:48 AM
thedutt
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · What's so Hot about the D850?


Sy Sez wrote:
Why would anyone want a camera that has:
15.3 MP higher resolution.
Wider DR range vs resolution.
No low-pass filter.
More than double the Buffer size.
Faster storage media capability.
Faster burst rate capability.
More than double the AF Points.
Wider AF Detection range.
2+ AF Bracketing Range.
739,000 more LCD resolution.
A Tilting Touch Screen.
More than double the per-shot battery life.
Auto AF Fine-Tune.
Focus Peaking.
Focus Stacking.
Back-lit buttons.

When you can get a Canon 5D4, that falls far short of all that, and pay more for it?

“DUH”


Oh Yeah? But one area canon shines, it saves me money - by not too much temptation to upgrade from 5DIII/7DII. I can happily skip one generation for upgrade. . IF i was a Nikon user on a budget, boy it would be quite the tough spot - thanks Canon!

On a more serious note, yes my ideal combo in today's market would be the magical Nikon 850 + Canon 500F4ISII combo, but I doubt the difference would be much evident in any wall prints or digital display - or so I keep telling myself.



Sep 01, 2017 at 10:49 AM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · What's so Hot about the D850?


snapsy wrote:
Your assertion that NIkon's reliability is no different than Canon's is incorrect, which I think is evident since you had to reach back 10 years to the 1DM3 for support of the assertion. Since that time Canon has had very few design/manufacturing issues, whereas Nikon has had several (D5000 power issues, D600 chamber/sensor oil issue, D800/E left AF issue affecting upwards of 30% of bodies by my personal sample size of 10 bodies, D750 mirror/shutter design issues).


I did not "reach back", if you read my post you would see that I said "since", which includes many more recent bodies.

I can remember these ones:

1DM3 - Major AF issues well documented, and mirror box/oil issues (advisory released)
1DSM3 - mirror box/oil issues (advisory released)
5D - Main Mirror separation/detachment (advisory released)
5D Mk II - Banding
5D Mk III - Light leak
Rebel XS - Err99 issue
7D - Image ghosting
7D2 - Major AF issues, well documented
1DX - Oil issues (advisory released in some countries), premature wear on shutter mechanism (advisory released) shutter shading issue worse than the D750, power board failures, cold weather AF failures
1DX II - Continuing oil issues, lots of complainers but no advisory yet
1DC - Premature wear on shutter mechanism (advisory released), cold weather AF failures


Some of those issues were major, like the D600 debacle. Some of those issues were minor or fixed with firmware. My only point is that some people seem to have the illusion that there is some sort of massive reliability disparity, and there isn't. Most bodies from all manufacturers work perfectly, and both companies have their fair share of problems, some acknowledged, some not. Everything is always magnified on the internet as well.

To keep it fair I will also highlight Nikon's recent issues:

D5000 - Power issues (advisory)
D600 - We all know about that one. Took them way too long to fix, but at least the final solution (advisory or new D610) was above and beyond.
D800 - Left AF issue. Thom Hogan's data, which is by far the most complete and a much larger sample than yours, shows it affected about one third of the production in the first 6 months. Should have been an advisory in my opinion, but they skipped it.
D810 - Hot pixels during long exposures while using 1.2X crop mode
D750 - Shutter shading issue, flare issue (same phenomenon as 1DX). Definitely a bit of a PR nightmare since they re-released the voluntary advisories 3 separate times.

Here's their list which they have all in one place:
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/service-and-support/service-advisories/index.page

I've probably missed some on both sides. Sony isn't much different either.

Again, my intention is not to smear either brand - neither is perfect, and they have both had issues of varying severity on both their bodies. Some are firmware fixes, and some are (or probably should be) service advisories. So far, the D810, D500, D5, 5D4, 5DS/R, and 1DX II all seem to be pretty safe bets which is good news for everyone.



Sep 01, 2017 at 12:01 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · What's so Hot about the D850?


CanadaMark wrote:
I did not "reach back", if you read my post you would see that I said "since", which includes many more recent bodies.

I can remember these ones:

1DM3 - Major AF issues well documented, and mirror box/oil issues (advisory released)
1DSM3 - mirror box/oil issues (advisory released)
5D - Main Mirror separation/detachment (advisory released)
5D Mk II - Banding
5D Mk III - Light leak
Rebel XS - Err99 issue
7D - Image ghosting
7D2 - Major AF issues, well documented
1DX - Oil issues (advisory released in some countries), premature wear on shutter mechanism (advisory released) shutter shading issue worse than the D750, power board failures,
...Show more

Outside of the 7DM2, the issues you listed are either old (5D mirror box) or ankle biters. The Nikon issues are much more significant. And here are a few more I forgot:

D3/D700 sensor blooming at high ISO
D800/E chassis cracking (weakness around tripod mount)



Sep 01, 2017 at 12:15 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · What's so Hot about the D850?


snapsy wrote:
Outside of the 7DM2, the issues you listed are either old (5D mirror box) or ankle biters. The Nikon issues are much more significant. And here are a few more I forgot:

D3/D700 sensor blooming at high ISO
D800/E chassis cracking (weakness around tripod mount)


They are not more significant. Hell, one of the D750 advisories, nobody even knew about it until Nikon told everyone (again, horrible for their image). Not even the relentless internet testers could find it. On top of that the issues only appear in a small number of bodies and under specific circumstances. The same issue appears in the 1DX, but why is it a minor issue for Canon and a major issue for Nikon? If you are going to downplay all the Canon issues and magnify all the Nikon issues, then there is no point in debating it. If a recent Nikon body had new oil issues, or had AF that quit in cold weather, or a shutter wear issue, the internet would be going berserk and you know it. Like I said, all the recent bodies from both manufacturers seem to be pretty solid - that's good news for all.



Sep 01, 2017 at 12:23 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · What's so Hot about the D850?


CanadaMark wrote:
They are not more significant. Hell, one of the D750 advisories, nobody even knew about it until Nikon told everyone (again, horrible for their image). Not even the relentless internet testers could find it. On top of that the issues only appear in a small number of bodies and under specific circumstances. The same issue appears in the 1DX, but why is it a minor issue for Canon and a major issue for Nikon? If you are going to downplay all the Canon issues and magnify all the Nikon issues, then there is no point in debating it. If a
...Show more

It's more significant on the D600 because it affected the vast majority of bodies, whereas the incidence on the 1DX was more sporadic. And we haven't even touched on how the two companies differ in their responses to issues. After the 1DM3 fiasco Canon learned their lesson - Nikon didn't. Nikon to date has never even admitted to the Left AF issue. The recall would have cost them hundreds of millions of dollars and so they took the quiet way out, at large expense to their reputation. Not to mention Nikon's recurring claims of "impact damage" for their D800/E chassis design issue. Or how it took a class-action lawsuit before Nikon admitted to the D600 issues.



Sep 01, 2017 at 12:36 PM
alundeb
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · What's so Hot about the D850?


Sy Sez wrote:
Why would anyone want a camera that has:
15.3 MP higher resolution.
Wider DR range vs resolution.
No low-pass filter.
More than double the Buffer size.
Faster storage media capability.
Faster burst rate capability.
More than double the AF Points.
Wider AF Detection range.
2+ AF Bracketing Range.
739,000 more LCD resolution.
A Tilting Touch Screen.
More than double the per-shot battery life.
Auto AF Fine-Tune.
Focus Peaking.
Focus Stacking.
Back-lit buttons.

When you can get a Canon 5D4, that falls far short of all that, and pay more for it?

“DUH”


Good list.

Give me the dynamic range and the tilting screen in the next 5DS R and I am content.

The D850 doesn't have a built-in bulb timer. That goes even with the tilting screen for features in my book. The dynamic range will be there next time for Canon anyway (they won't do as with the 6dII here, for sure.) Just one year to wait.

In the meantime, I enjoy drooling over the toys on the other side of the fence



Sep 01, 2017 at 12:43 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · What's so Hot about the D850?


snapsy wrote:
It's more significant on the D600 because it affected the vast majority of bodies, whereas the incidence on the 1DX was more sporadic. And we haven't even touched on how the two companies differ in their responses to issues. After the 1DM3 fiasco Canon learned their lesson - Nikon didn't. Nikon to date has never even admitted to the Left AF issue. The recall would have cost them hundreds of millions of dollars and so they took the quiet way out, at large expense to their reputation. Not to mention Nikon's recurring claims of "impact damage" for their D800/E chassis
...Show more

Canon released an advisory for 1DX oil too, which means it was a lot more than sporadic. Canon doesn't typically release advisories without significant pressure. A quick internet search shows how prevalent it was if you prefer to read user reports. Many FM members complain about it as well. Oil spatter was not the only issue with the 1DX, there were several and some were quite serious such as AF shutting down altogether.

Canon did not learn from the 1DM3 fiasco, it wasn't until threat of a law suit that they did anything about it (like Nikon and the D600), and they have not yet even acknowledged all the 7D2 AF issues people are still having. Had they learned from the 1DM3, I think we would have seen a 7D2 advisory by now. Most likely they don't want another black mark on the official record in the AF column.

Nikon has had basically two bodies with what I think most would agree were significant issues and they are both from 2012: D600 and D800. There should have been a service advisory for the left AF, I completely agree, though it did not affect that many users based on Thom's data, the users it did affect deserved a fix. The D600 issues were far more widespread than the D800 issues, and you got a brand new D610 if they couldn't fix it. Canon has had at least as many serious issues with the 1D3, 7D2, and 1DX.

Why is Nikon being singled out for not acknowledging the D800 Left AF issue, but not Canon for not acknowledging the 7D2 AF issues?

Why do you think Canon learned from the 1DM3 AF debacle when the 7D2 has not got an advisory?

Since the D600, Nikon has released a service advisory for every little thing regardless of severity. Clearly, they have learned something from that fiasco since there was a massive change in advisories immediately following that event. They don't seem to be nearly as sensitive about negative PR, and it's definitely hurting their image.

Again, the only points I am trying to argue is that it's pretty clear that:

A) Neither company has that great of a reliability history and you can cherry pick the more serious ones from either camp
B) Both companies seem to have improved in all areas of reliability with all recent releases
C) Generally, most people don't have problems with their cameras



Sep 01, 2017 at 01:07 PM
brian_sp
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · What's so Hot about the D850?


Mikehit wrote:
[
If you are obsessed with DR as the sole indicator of a camera's worth then I guess you will not agree.


well i would rather have the DR in a camera body so that it is ME that decides if, when, where i want to use it, rather than have the company i've invested in that can't provide the DR making the decision for me and then having to resort to making excuses for that company as to why they can't do it, one of the excuses being "it's not that important"




Sep 01, 2017 at 01:23 PM
bcguy
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · What's so Hot about the D850?


Paul Mo wrote:
Trouble with blocking is you still see that 'unhide blah, blah, blah's post' message. Wish they were entirely invisible, though I am loathe to block someone - they need to be particularly tedious to incur blocking.

-------------------------------------

I have only blocked one other member--for the same kind of garbage. I am usually quite patient, but blatant trolling gets on my nerves. I generally avoid the wiener measuring contests, but sometimes I just can't keep my big mouth shut. I should have just hit the back button and ignored this thread entirely.

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." I have to keep telling myself that.



Sep 01, 2017 at 01:30 PM
NJPhotographer
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · What's so Hot about the D850?


snapsy wrote:
Outside of the 7DM2, the issues you listed are either old (5D mirror box) or ankle biters. The Nikon issues are much more significant. And here are a few more I forgot:

D3/D700 sensor blooming at high ISO
D800/E chassis cracking (weakness around tripod mount)


The 5D III "light leak" was a very minor issue. Turning on the LCD light in a dark environment would affect the metering.



Sep 01, 2017 at 01:38 PM
tntcorp
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · What's so Hot about the D850?


molson wrote:
Forget all that - I would buy it just for the multiple opportunities to send it back to Nikon for the recalls!


yes... pick your poisons.. nikon has recalls... canon stayed silent & kept customers confused... ;')



Sep 01, 2017 at 01:52 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · What's so Hot about the D850?


CanadaMark wrote:
Canon released an advisory for 1DX oil too, which means it was a lot more than sporadic. Canon doesn't typically release advisories without significant pressure. A quick internet search shows how prevalent it was if you prefer to read user reports. Many FM members complain about it as well. Oil spatter was not the only issue with the 1DX, there were several and some were quite serious such as AF shutting down altogether.

Canon did not learn from the 1DM3 fiasco, it wasn't until threat of a law suit that they did anything about it (like Nikon and the D600), and
...Show more

Fair point about the 7DM2, although there isn't much quantitative data that demonstrates how many bodies were actually affected. Your note about not many D800 bodies affected is easily disprovable - Nikon claimed their production capacity for the body was 30k units/month. Even if we assume that Thom's statement about the production issue being fixed after 6 months is true (I don't believe it is based on my personal experience with multiple bodies manufactured later), that still represents 54,000 bodies with the issue (30% of 6 months of production).

You mentioned the D610, which was probably the low point of Nikon's corporate behavior. It was obviously a do-over of the D600, identical in every way except for fixing the shutter oil issues with a token 0.5fps improvement. And Nikon released it before they were forced to acknowledge the D600 issues from the class-action suit, so the D610 represented an enormous slap in the face to D600 owners who couldn't get their body fixed even after multiple attempts (before the class-action suit).



Sep 01, 2017 at 02:35 PM
alundeb
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · What's so Hot about the D850?


Back to the original question:

Why would anyone want a camera that.... ?

The world would be very strange if people only bought the best thing after a consensus about what the best thing is. People don't buy the best. People buy differently.

A lot of purchases are driven by emotions and strange details. This year I sold my house, and what the buyer said was that the coffee grinder in the kitchen made it. Since the people who lived there loved coffee, they had to be good people, and it was a good house.



Sep 01, 2017 at 02:52 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · What's so Hot about the D850?


The D600 owners actually have the upper hand since they get sensor cleans and shutter repairs for free, indefinitely.

The D800 AF wasn't Nikon's strongest showing but it is very difficult to make inferences of how large a percentage needed repair without having actual access to Nikon data.

Both problems were in bodies released in 2012, one year after the earthquake tsunami and flooding that devastated Nikon production facilities, people's lives and the infrastructure. I would cut them some slack.



Sep 01, 2017 at 02:54 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · What's so Hot about the D850?


snapsy wrote:
Fair point about the 7DM2, although there isn't much quantitative data that demonstrates how many bodies were actually affected. Your note about not many D800 bodies affected is easily disprovable - Nikon claimed their production capacity for the body was 30k units/month. Even if we assume that Thom's statement about the production issue being fixed after 6 months is true (I don't believe it is based on my personal experience with multiple bodies manufactured later), that still represents 54,000 bodies with the issue (30% of 6 months of production).

You mentioned the D610, which was probably the low point of
...Show more

A problem with all this discussion (and I appreciate the friendly dialogue) is that there simply is not reliable quantitative data for ANY of these issues on either side. There is a mixture of:

- Service advisories that we can go and look at
- Forum chatter
- Highly unreliable online polls full of bias and unknown testing skill levels (Thom at one point said less than 20% of people who sent him D800 left-AF test results conducted a usable test - I'm sure that is a hurdle when evaluating any issue).
- Personal experience which doesn't really matter since sample sizes are way too small, but probably has the greatest impact on one's own decisions
- The fact that unhappy people complain much more frequently and much louder than happy ones, further skewing easily accessible online data. Basically, the internet snowball effect.

We take the sum of all that and try to make a speculative picture of any given issue. It's far from perfect, and Nikon or Canon would never share actual data. If enough people complain about something, I think it's fair to say we generally accept there is an issue or likely an issue. The information we never get is really how prevalent or widespread it is.

As I said before, I completely agree that the D800 should have got a service advisory, and I think that precisely because 30% of 6 months (again using Thom's data - it's probably the best we have) is still a fair chunk of users. Especially now, when they issue a voluntary advisory for almost anything, the D800 would have probably got one if it happened just a little bit later.

Nikon's handling of the D600 issue ranges from some of the worst (denial and releasing the D610) to the best I've ever seen and unheard of in the camera industry (free lifetime service + free D610). Obviously it should not have been an issue in the first place, but it was, and they (eventually) made things right for people. It was also the turning point for them regarding their voluntary service advisory hypersensitivity which overall has probably done more to hurt their image than anything else, but customers are better protected than before. Thom Hogan has also said that Nikon probably passed much of the cost of the service advisory onto the shutter mechanism supplier, which I imagine is always what Nikon/Canon try to do whenever possible.

Nikon's more serious issues both happened in 2012 around times of natural disasters, so while not an excuse, it's possible things were rushed or overlooked.

What we are left with is:

- Both brands have significant issues that previously went or are currently going unacknowledged (D800, 7D2)
- Both brands have had minor issues solved by firmware or voluntary advisory (most of the issues on both sides fall into this category)
- Both brands have had major issues they both ignored until a law suit surfaced (1DM3 & D600)
- Both brands seem to have little or no issues with current bodies (~2015+)

I think that is a fair assessment, and I don't think it's fair to categorically say that one brand is massively better or worse than the other when it comes to issues and/or reliability, especially when the data we have is far from perfect. Each has had their low points, and neither of them are out of the woods yet - that much is quite clear. It's actually remarkable how similar they both are when you can even match up types of issues (AF, oil, etc.) and issues with big law suits.

I still believe my previous summary was accurate when I said that both companies have had similar issues of overall similar severity over time, neither company seems to have notable issues with new bodies, and most people in general have no problem at all. Overall I think the outlook is very positive for both brands in this regard and that's good for all users.



Sep 01, 2017 at 04:00 PM
kewlcanon
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · What's so Hot about the D850?


If you have Nikon questions there is always a Nikon rep or two in Canon forum


Sep 01, 2017 at 04:10 PM
Mikehit
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · What's so Hot about the D850?


brian_sp wrote:
well i would rather have the DR in a camera body so that it is ME that decides if, when, where i want to use it, rather than have the company i've invested in that can't provide the DR making the decision for me and then having to resort to making excuses for that company as to why they can't do it, one of the excuses being "it's not that important"



It clearly isn't that important because if it was then Canon would not be #1 in the market.
'You' may find it important but 'you' are not 'the camera buying public'. Nor am I. Canon makes a decision to design a camera for the masses. That is not 'an excuse' that is a perfectly valid reason. Unfortunately you seem to be one of those who can't accept this quite simple fact of life and instead keep repeating this same point on a Canon forum.



Sep 01, 2017 at 05:01 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · What's so Hot about the D850?


I decide what I want in a camera and the d850 is an immediate fails m for me on resolution. Even the jump to 30 was a step too far for me. I don't need that much resolution. I take a lot of photos and it will cost me. Other stuff I'm more interested in on the d850 - tilt screen being the top desire.

But I still want my canon lenses... that trumps everything for me.



Sep 01, 2017 at 06:11 PM
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