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D850 has my attention
  
 
alundeb
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · D850 has my attention


mb126 wrote:
This is not even a little bit true.

Total noise = Shot noise + Read noise

Shot noise = How noisy the scene is (i.e. fixed and not something you can do anything about)
Read noise = Noise introduced by the sensor

The lower MP bodies are typically engineered to have lower read noise at the high ISOs. Hence, they tend to perform better for the same scene at higher ISO. Think D5 vs D810.



What takowasa writes is just the facts as agreed upon by everybody who really digs into the stuff. It is also very close to what you write, so I wonder what it is that makes you think he is not even a little bit true. In what he writes, it is only the "all else qual" part that is up for adjustment and debate.

You are right that shot noise is in the scene, in the sense that it is in the light. But we can do something about it. The efficiency per sensor area is a factor. The more efficient, the higher the signal-to-shot-noise ratio. The efficiency per area is one of the factors that is not exactly equal, but still pretty close in modern sensors. So I think you are not far from each other.

Regarding read noise, you write essentially the same thing with different words and slightly different approach.



Sep 12, 2017 at 06:20 PM
Colin F
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · D850 has my attention


memoria wrote:
Are you actually considering ditching the 5D Mark IV and get a D850 instead? What on this earth are you throwing at the poor Canon that it can't handle?


I feel that I spelled it out fairly clearly in my OP, but I'm happy to reiterate.

Yes, I'm considering the switch from Canon to Nikon because for my particular needs, which is ~90% birds, and now preferring to use one of the smaller, lighter 150-500/600 options instead of a big 500/600 prime lens, it makes sense.

As mentioned already, experiencing the 30 MP of the 5D4 over the ~20 MP of the 6D and 7DII was huge, and I love it, so it follows that I would experience even more of this digital nectar with the 47 MP of the D850 in consort with a Nikon 200-500 or Tamron 150-600 G2. The absence of an AA filter in the D850 is also a big attraction.

Other superior aspects are the dynamic range and possibly better ISO performance (although not sure about that last one), faster memory cards, 9 FPS (I really notice a huge difference between the 10 FPS of the 7DII and the 7 FPS of the 5D4, so it would be nice to have the 9 FPS on such a beast), and better buffer capacity too.

The fact that the 5D4 was just released not long ago means that it will be quite some time before the next iteration comes out (3 years?), and the 5DsR (nor the newer version of it) doesn't interest me due to the inadequate ISO performance and low FPS rate.

This is not Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS), I do not suffer from that; this is merely wanting the best possible camera body for bird photography with the use of one of the less expensive zoom lenses. And I think that the D850 with a Nikon 200-500 or Tamron 150-600 G2 would produce vastly superior images than my present setup.

Now if Canon would let us know about their rumoured 200-600 lens, I would feel much more compelled to wait for it, but they choose to be all tight-lipped about releases, so they may lose more people than just me as a customer due to that.

If I had buyers for all my Canon lenses & two bodies, I would likely make the leap, but attempting to sell all that gear is not very appealing. Plus, I have the luxury of not needing to make any move quickly, so it'll be interesting to observe how the D850 performs in real world use over the next few months. Any major issues like oil spots or recalls would be a disaster for them, but the camera appears to be a champ at this point in time.


Edited on Sep 12, 2017 at 09:37 PM · View previous versions



Sep 12, 2017 at 08:09 PM
takowasa
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · D850 has my attention


mb126 wrote:
The problem is the amount of photons each sensor cell receives. Since the 5Ds and D850 and 7DII have very similar sensor cell sizes the photon shot noise (and that's the by far dominant factor at high ISO, technical noise from the camera electronics is negligible) will be absolutely identical.


takowasa wrote:
This is also a common misunderstanding. It's not the amount of light a pixel receives, but the amount of light that makes up the photo as a whole, that matters. For example, a 24 MP sensor and 48 MP sensor will produce photos that are equally noisy, all else equal.

Of course, if the 5Ds and D850 are shooting with the same focal length as the 7D2 and then cropped to the same framing, then the cropping also reduces the amount of light making up the photo, so they'd all be the same.

As for the electronic noise from the sensor and
...Show more

charlyw wrote:
This is not even a little bit true.


In fact, it is quite true.

Total noise = Shot noise + Read noise

In quadrature sum, yes (although there are other sources of noise, but those two are, by far, the dominant sources for most situations).

Shot noise = How noisy the scene is (i.e. fixed and not something you can do anything about)
Read noise = Noise introduced by the sensor


Yes.

The lower MP bodies are typically engineered to have lower read noise at the high ISOs.

This is incorrect.

Hence, they tend to perform better for the same scene at higher ISO. Think D5 vs D810.

The effect of pixel size on noise, all else equal, is explained in detail here:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55781353

and splendidly demonstrated further down in the thread here:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55804062


Edited on Sep 12, 2017 at 09:50 PM · View previous versions



Sep 12, 2017 at 08:21 PM
Holger
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · D850 has my attention


[
Other superior aspects are the dynamic range and possibly better ISO performance (although not sure about that last one), faster memory cards, 9 FPS (I really notice a huge difference between the 10 FPS of the 7DII and the 7 FPS of the 5D4, so it would be nice to have the 9 FPS on such a beast), and better buffer capacity too.

.

As Bill Claffs measurements shows, the 5div is only trailing the D850 in DR at base ISO 64, there is even a slight lead at higher ISOs (not relevant in real life in my opinion, however). DPreview's DR test of the D850 showed that at ISO6400 the difference between the 5div and D850 is not relevant, too, in my opinion, with maybe a tiny bit finer grain of the D850 at 100%. So are your images at base ISO 64 most of the time to warrant the extra DR, or is it a mere extra you want for other purposes like occasional landscape shots?
I can understand that the higher fps or resolution is an important point for you. However, you could put the Tamron you mention or Sigma zoom on the Canon, too.



Sep 12, 2017 at 09:50 PM
Colin F
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · D850 has my attention


As Bill Claffs measurements shows, the 5div is only trailing the D850 in DR at base ISO 64, there is even a slight lead at higher ISOs (not relevant in real life in my opinion, however). DPreview's DR test of the D850 showed that at ISO 6400 the difference between the 5div and D850 is not relevant, too, in my opinion, with maybe a tiny bit finer grain of the D850 at 100%. So are your images at base ISO 64 most of the time to warrant the extra DR, or is it a mere extra you want for other purposes...Show more

Having some extra DR at base ISO would certainly be nice for landscape shots, but I often find that I really need to reduce the highlights and pull the darks a considerable amount in some bird shots too, so are you suggesting that those bird shots at ISO 800 and up are going to be about the same between the two bodies? The 5DIV is much better than my old 6D and 7DII, but I'm curious to see how the D850 compares with my own eyes. I was speaking with a guy this morning who will be receiving his 850 very soon, so perhaps that will be an opportunity for a side by side comparison.

I can understand that the higher FPS or resolution is an important point for you. However, you could put the Tamron you mention or Sigma zoom on the Canon too.

Yes, as mentioned, I do have the Tammy 150-600 G2, and have been using it solely for birds since I sold my 500 f/4 over a month ago. When you plunk a newer, high-end FF body on these zoom lenses, they can do quite well (as opposed to a crop body), but all things considered (resolution; FPS; DR; no AA filter), I suspect that the results from a D850 on these zoom lenses would be significantly better than a 5D4, especially on a Nikon 200-500, which is a superior lens than the Tammy/Sigma offerings. As a person who "follows the evidence" though, I'm open to be wrong about all those assumptions.



Edited on Sep 13, 2017 at 07:49 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2017 at 01:53 AM
Colin F
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · D850 has my attention


BTW: I'm using CS6, so how will I be able to process a file from the D850? Will the Adobe DNG converter work?


Sep 13, 2017 at 01:55 AM
arbitrage
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · D850 has my attention


Colin F wrote:
Having some extra DR at base ISO would certainly be nice for landscape shots, but I often find that I really need to reduce the highlights and pull the darks a considerable amount in some bird shots too, so are you suggesting that those bird shots at ISO 800 and up are going to be about the same between the two bodies? The 5DIV is much better than my old 6D and 7DII, but I'm curious to see how the D850 compares with my own eyes. I was speaking with a guy this morning who will be receiving his
...Show more

If we just look at DR number then unless you use ISO 64 you won't see any difference in pushing and pulling shadows between the D850 and 5D4. Although there may be some other qualities like the way the noise looks and colour casts in the lifted shadows that could be better on one or the other.

DPReview should have all their studio shots up by the end of this week which is useful to compare between cameras. You can also download those RAWs to run through your normal software.








Sep 13, 2017 at 02:54 AM
Colin F
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · D850 has my attention


Thanks Geoff. So if the difference in ISO and DR between the D850 and 5D4 is not that great, then we are left with:

- Added resolution
- 9 FPS (with battery grip)
- Buffer (unlimited on the D850 in crop mode!)
- Faster cards
- No AA filter
- Tilt screen

I don't do video, so the 4K doesn't matter to me.



Sep 13, 2017 at 03:32 AM
Holger
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · D850 has my attention


Colin F wrote:
Having some extra DR at base ISO would certainly be nice for landscape shots, but I often find that I really need to reduce the highlights and pull the darks a considerable amount in some bird shots too, so are you suggesting that those bird shots at ISO 800 and up are going to be about the same between the two bodies? The 5DIV is much better than my old 6D and 7DII, but I'm curious to see how the D850 compares with my own eyes. I was speaking with a guy this morning who will be receiving his
...Show more

As was shown after my post and mentioned by you, yes, it is about the fps, MP or buffer etc., in case you need it, not about SN ratio or DR which are excellent on both cameras. The Nikon 200-500 is a nice lens, but I personally would favour the Sigma Sports (100mm extra reach, Sigma Dock to fine tune AF. I consider this important, as front- or backfocussing will ruin every MP advantage you might have with a D850. I could imagine that the Sigma with Canon 5div at 600mm will produce similar quality images to the D850 with Nikon at 500mm, at least for people not needing to sell images. Furthermore many complain about speed of focus in the 200-500mm Nikon lens, e.g. here (can't say whether this is true or not):
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1415855/4 , which is a big thread about it. One guy wrote
"What WAS an issue, and is the reason I'm returning the zoom is the GLACIALLY slow AF. I heard the AF was slower that the 80-400G, but I had no idea it was that slow -- like holy molasses in January Batman. From the excellent sports images (like the ones above this post) it seems that once locked on the 200-500 can follow the action well enough, but when birding I'm constantly shooting from MFD to 30 feet and back again and often only have seconds to compose, focus and get the shot each time. This is simply not doable with the 200-500. Mammals should be fine but wild birds are far to unpredictable for doing this. I'm really surprised Nikon didn't understand the need for "good" AF performance in a lens that's clearly designed for sports and wildlife and include a "decent" AF module even if it cost a bit more. Oh well, so now I'm going to have to take a closer look at the Sigma Sport, especially considering the new firmware update that's supposed to improve AF performance 20%. Sounds interesting." ).
If the resolution and fps are that decisive to your work and your happiness, I would sell Canon and make the switch (and hope a future 5dsrii won't solve most of your issues ;-)).



Sep 13, 2017 at 06:06 AM
Holger
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · D850 has my attention


Interesting:

https://fstoppers.com/automotive/multi-million-dollar-shootout-and-how-i-created-winning-photo-195216

6D winning shot despite DR deficit ;-)



Sep 13, 2017 at 09:53 AM
 

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memoria
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · D850 has my attention


Jim Turner wrote:
My local camera store salesman told me the D850 would be a very poor handheld camera because of the number of MP's. I don't see where he is coming from. What's the reaction of the forum?


Camera shake. The increase in MP requires faster shutterspeeds.




Sep 13, 2017 at 10:11 AM
memoria
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · D850 has my attention


Colin F wrote:
I feel that I spelled it out fairly clearly in my OP, but I'm happy to reiterate.

Yes, I'm considering the switch from Canon to Nikon because for my particular needs, which is ~90% birds, and now preferring to use one of the smaller, lighter 150-500/600 options instead of a big 500/600 prime lens, it makes sense.

As mentioned already, experiencing the 30 MP of the 5D4 over the ~20 MP of the 6D and 7DII was huge, and I love it, so it follows that I would experience even more of this digital nectar with the 47 MP of the
...Show more

My only point is that I don't believe you will experience the difference in IQ you hope for. And the AA filter... I don't shoot birds but if I did, I think I would prefer an AA filter due to the feather-texture and all fine details? But then again, haven't seen how the D850 behaves. Might be of no concern.

As for GAS - the 5D4 is just about one year old and you are already talking about the next model and how far away that is. I don't know...

As I said... I don't mind upgrading and I can see you are clearly interested in the D850. Fair enough. Just do it for the right reasons. Trying to save you bucks and work if you will.




Edited on Sep 13, 2017 at 10:25 AM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2017 at 10:22 AM
alundeb
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · D850 has my attention


memoria wrote:
Camera shake. The increase in MP requires faster shutterspeeds.



It is not the increase in MP that requires faster shutter speed, but the reproduction ratio. If you are satisfied with a camera with 20 MP, but consider the D850 for other features, there will not be more camera shake blur in the final image of the same size, using the same shutter speed.

The possibility to see the camera shake in finer detail with more megapixels is a useful tool to improve the technique and find the optimal settings for a given reproduction ratio.



Sep 13, 2017 at 10:24 AM
CanadaMark
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · D850 has my attention


arbitrage wrote:
If we just look at DR number then unless you use ISO 64 you won't see any difference in pushing and pulling shadows between the D850 and 5D4. Although there may be some other qualities like the way the noise looks and colour casts in the lifted shadows that could be better on one or the other.
.


That's actually not true once you look at sample images, the difference is quite enormous even comparing D850's amplified ISO 100 to the 5DM4 base ISO:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr144_0=nikon_d850&attr144_1=canon_eos5dmkiv&attr144_2=canon_eos6dmkii&attr144_3=nikon_d500&attr146_0=100_6&attr146_1=100_6&attr146_2=100_6&attr146_3=100_6&normalization=compare&widget=552&x=-0.06212308092189277&y=-1.1137781732228904

That would be the difference between a throw-away image and a keeper with the noise disparity and banding in the above comparison. So I don't think it's accurate to say that he wouldn't' see any difference except at ISO 64 as I think anyone would be able to notice that difference. Of course, if you use ISO 64, the difference is even larger.


Colin F wrote:
Thanks Geoff. So if the difference in ISO and DR between the D850 and 5D4 is not that great, then we are left with:

- Added resolution
- 9 FPS (with battery grip)
- Buffer (unlimited on the D850 in crop mode!)
- Faster cards
- No AA filter
- Tilt screen

I don't do video, so the 4K doesn't matter to me.


See above - the DR difference is much larger than that at low ISO's even if you don't use base ISO.
You can add AF to your list as well, it's the exact same as the D5 including dedicated back-end processing. It also has AF point linked spot metering which you don't get unless you move to a 1-series, fully illuminated controls, automated AFFT, automated focus stacking, bigger viewfinder, better build, fully electronic shutter capability, etc. They pulled out all the stops with this one.



Sep 13, 2017 at 03:00 PM
Colin F
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · D850 has my attention


^^^ In that example, I'm surprised that the D500 crop sensor smokes the 5D4 FF sensor, or am I missing something?


Sep 13, 2017 at 03:08 PM
CanadaMark
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · D850 has my attention


memoria wrote:
Camera shake. The increase in MP requires faster shutterspeeds.



This is a myth. All else being equal, more MP are actually more forgiving. If you downsampled a 46MP image to a lower resolution, it would always look the same or better with regards to dealing with an equal amount of camera shake. From an image quality standpoint it's always better to have more resolution, all else being equal.



Sep 13, 2017 at 03:09 PM
CanadaMark
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · D850 has my attention


Colin F wrote:
^^^ In that example, I'm surprised that the D500 crop sensor smokes the 5D4 FF sensor, or am I missing something?


You aren't missing anything, the D500 has excellent low ISO DR performance and similar characteristics to the D850 in that regard.



Sep 13, 2017 at 03:12 PM
Colin F
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · D850 has my attention


Interesting. Again, I mostly shoot birds, so am rarely at low ISO numbers, so I'm really curious to see the difference between the 850 and 5D4 (on screen with actual files) at 800/1600/3200/6400


Sep 13, 2017 at 03:15 PM
CanadaMark
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · D850 has my attention


Colin F wrote:
Interesting. Again, I mostly shoot birds, so am rarely at low ISO numbers, so I'm really curious to see the difference between the 850 and 5D4 (on screen with actual files) at 800/1600/3200/6400


Typically these charts are a good indication, so they should be virtually identical at the higher ISO's, except the D850 does so with over 50% more resolution so you have a lot more flexibility if you wish to crop or downsample:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV_14,Nikon%20D850_14



Sep 13, 2017 at 03:20 PM
Holger
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · D850 has my attention


CanadaMark wrote:
That's actually not true once you look at sample images, the difference is quite enormous even comparing D850's amplified ISO 100 to the 5DM4 base ISO:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr144_0=nikon_d850&attr144_1=canon_eos5dmkiv&attr144_2=canon_eos6dmkii&attr144_3=nikon_d500&attr146_0=100_6&attr146_1=100_6&attr146_2=100_6&attr146_3=100_6&normalization=compare&widget=552&x=-0.06212308092189277&y=-1.1137781732228904

That would be the difference between a throw-away image and a keeper with the noise disparity and banding in the above comparison. So I don't think it's accurate to say that he wouldn't' see any difference except at ISO 64 as I think anyone would be able to notice that difference. Of course, if you use ISO 64, the difference is even larger.


See above - the DR difference is much larger than that at low
...Show more

Not sure I agree. The PDR is a a metric measured for a fixed minimum S/N ratio and is almost equal amongst both cameras at Iso 100. The 5div is less ISO-invariant than the D850 which shows here. So for me it is not a test of DR directly but ISO invariance or what DPreview calls exposure latitude. So pushing +6ev gives an edge to the D850, whoever needs that. If I compare the +4ev push, which is very extreme, too, than I don't see a meaningful difference, which is all that matters to me. If I underexposed by 6stops I really have a problem.


Edited on Sep 13, 2017 at 03:37 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2017 at 03:30 PM
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