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Archive 2017 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?

  
 
artificialyello
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Imagemaster wrote:
Pretty amusing how some people still like to put down "spray and pray" shooting, when it is more like "burst and get the shot". Seems they are trying to convince others that photographers who just take one shot at a time are better photographers or get better photos. What a joke.


I'm not putting down working with high framerate. I honestly have not tried it so how could I! But coming from film, working with the decisive moment feels more natural, you need a very high FPS to match it...

Imagemaster wrote:
Sort of like two photographers getting exactly the same shot, but one used MF and one used AF. Hardly makes the one that used MF the better photographer when he got the same image, does it?


Well... The MF photog has a creative choice. It's like driving automatic or stickshift: Sometimes you and the car agrees but sometimes not.



Aug 27, 2017 at 03:14 AM
Paul Mo
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


IMO, visually, photography is stronger than ever while on the flipside it is harder than ever to make a living at. Take those factors while considering how competitive the game is. Now mull that over.

You might arrive at the conclusion that for many shooters* every advantage matters. Therefore burst shooting, to make sure you get something saleable - or at least good enough to be put out on the wires for sale to have chance at making some coin - is part of that high-pressure world.

*Now not all of us are in that scene. Many have the luxury of a far more pedestrian practice. But it is immature and ignorant to belittle people who do lean on 12fps to put food on the table. Or even those who simply want to catch some fleeting, otherwise unseen, glimpse of nature's beauty.



Aug 27, 2017 at 04:55 AM
therealthings
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Why only for professionals? I mean, there's people (like me) that save thousands of euro's for a trip to a place far away. Then you do want 12 fps when a leopard or cheetah starts chasing an impala. Or that puffin or buzzard that is flying towards you.

There's people that just want something to have it, and there's people that want something to use it. I'm in the last category. Spray and pray has nothing to do with that...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4247/34585816990_ebd691fbf2_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5473/30587976583_49b484028c_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7438/27188740873_b0a1dda170_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7368/27543012942_9f1046492e_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7422/27528525815_86c860c62f_c.jpg



Aug 27, 2017 at 06:27 AM
Paul Mo
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


therealthings wrote:
Why only for professionals? I mean, there's people (like me) that save thousands of euro's for a trip to a place far away.



If that was directed at me I didn't forget you.

Paul Mo wrote:
Or even those who simply want to catch some fleeting, otherwise unseen, glimpse of nature's beauty.


Lovely tern shot, BTW - it's fantastic.




Aug 27, 2017 at 07:11 AM
therealthings
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Paul Mo wrote:
If that was directed at me I didn't forget you.

Lovely tern shot, BTW - it's fantastic.



Yes i first directed the reply at you but indeed you mentioned about the 'glimpse of nature' and thought i better add to your post than reply to it.

To get back on topic, i believe the d850 is a great step forward for Nikon. If i was invested in that system i would be happy to use one next to a D5. If Canon is able to answer that camera, i think they can in terms of speed and fps. Not sure how they can compete with DR. Personally i think Canon users should be very pleased if they manage to up their DR and release FF sensor with 36MP that does 8 or 9 fps before Photokina 2018.



Aug 27, 2017 at 10:24 AM
technic
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


rattlebonez wrote:
well put about the "Spray and Pray" approach to birding Molson


I tried this approach for my DIF shots last week, just to see what I was missing. With my 80D I got 1 or 2 shots in a flyby sequence where the dragonfly is in the frame and reasonably in focus (= you can see there is a dragonfly there, but that's about it); if I'm very lucky a few frames out of many are sharp. I don't think it has much value for me until framerates go up to 30-40 fps, and then I would have to wade to all those out of focus images to find a good one. On the other side, sounds like a great way to focus-stack a flying dragonfly ;-)
---------------------------------------------

rattlebonez wrote:
therealthings,
not everyone can afford a 600mm or 800mm prime lens
few people can I suspect

The 400mm F4 DO II + 1.4X III gives 560mm F5.6 that works well on 5DS producing sharp images with detail
it is also nice to have a hand holdable lens


Agree, a FF camera with the right lens will get a better picture; but that means carrying a much heavier lens and for some subjects such a combo will not work at all. For wildlife with relatively slow or predictable movement and when you don't need to carry the gear for long distance, the FF combo is more attractive though. It's a subject I'm still pondering, if I move to FF I'm going to miss some opportunities because of the bigger/heavier gear so the gain in IQ needs to be big enough to compensate ;-)

Edited on Aug 27, 2017 at 11:00 AM · View previous versions



Aug 27, 2017 at 10:47 AM
technic
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Paul Mo wrote:
IMO, visually, photography is stronger than ever while on the flipside it is harder than ever to make a living at. Take those factors while considering how competitive the game is. Now mull that over.

You might arrive at the conclusion that for many shooters* every advantage matters. Therefore burst shooting, to make sure you get something saleable - or at least good enough to be put out on the wires for sale to have chance at making some coin - is part of that high-pressure world.

*Now not all of us are in that scene. Many have the luxury of
...Show more

Agree about all that except that (as therealthings also mentions) it applies to hobby photographers as well. For me trying to shift the boundaries of photography is what keeps it interesting. It can be satisfying to take another picture of that favorite subject with a new camera, resulting in even better IQ (and maybe with even better light etc. after waiting for years for the perfect opportunity). But it's often more fun trying to take pictures that others haven't tried yet, or that you see only rarely, because they are "too difficult / impossible" etc. Technology is one of the biggest factors in this.

In nature photography there has been a huge change over the last 10 years or so thanks to digital imaging, computers, communication technologies, drones etc. etc. and it's probably only a start. Every year people (mostly pros, obviously) invent new tricks to image things never seen before in such detail. As a hobby user one cannot keep up with all this technological development but much of it will filter down to more affordable equipment in a few years (e.g. look at what happened with drones over the last 20 years). Exciting times ahead, although I have my doubt if companies like Canon will keep evolving with the new technology.



Aug 27, 2017 at 10:58 AM
Holger
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


therealthings wrote:
Yes i first directed the reply at you but indeed you mentioned about the 'glimpse of nature' and thought i better add to your post than reply to it.

To get back on topic, i believe the d850 is a great step forward for Nikon. If i was invested in that system i would be happy to use one next to a D5. If Canon is able to answer that camera, i think they can in terms of speed and fps. Not sure how they can compete with DR. Personally i think Canon users should be very pleased if they manage
...Show more

The question is, how large a difference in DR you accept? http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D810
shows about half a stop difference of the 5div to the D810 at ISO 64. For me, this half a stop at base iso is not important at all. Even if Canon wouldn't be able to match that in a 5dsrii or 5dv, every reduction of this difference would make the DR argument in this aspect even more irrelevant, in my opinion.
The situation looks different when comparing a 6dii-like sensor, where you have 1 stop to the 5div and 1.5stops PDR difference to the D810.



Aug 27, 2017 at 01:45 PM
therealthings
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?




Holger wrote:
The question is, how large a difference in DR you accept? http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D810
shows about half a stop difference of the 5div to the D810 at ISO 64. For me, this half a stop at base iso is not important at all. Even if Canon wouldn't be able to match that in a 5dsrii or 5dv, every reduction of this difference would make the DR argument in this aspect even more irrelevant, in my opinion.
The situation looks different when comparing a 6dii-like sensor, where you have 1 stop to the 5div and 1.5stops PDR difference to the D810.


I have to admit holger that i am no technician, i take photos and make observations. I can tell out of experience that 7dII and 5dsr files fall apart easily with pp'ing where the 1dxII files are much more forgiving. Also my experience with the sony a7r was pretty good in terms of capturing detail in shadows and highlights. Now when i look up charts of dynamic range comparisons between camera's i can see my own findings in the field come pretty close to what the charts say.



Aug 27, 2017 at 01:51 PM
rattlebonez
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


What a load of crap

5ds and 5dsr files fo not fall apart easily with pp'ing

Edited on Aug 27, 2017 at 10:27 PM · View previous versions



Aug 27, 2017 at 02:50 PM
therealthings
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?




rattlebonez wrote:
What a load of crap

5ds and 5dsr filrs fo not fall apart easily with pp'ing


YMMV



Aug 27, 2017 at 03:36 PM
Aztatlan
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


mogud wrote:
So you're saying that Canon 6d2 has DR similar to its 2009 tech but Nikon's shiny new offering has DR like its 2014 tech. Boy, this argument is sure stretching it.


If the preliminary data on the charts is correct it does look like the D850 offers zero advancement in DR at base ISO. Whilst this is disappointing (not that I was planning on buying a D850 - I just like seeing tech move forward) in my eyes the key differentiation between this case and the 6D2 case is that the D810 already offered class-leading and unmatched* base ISO DR. The 6D did not.

Nikon have seemingly failed to improve base ISO DR (looks like high ISO has improved a little though) but I think most people will realise that as literally no other DSLR on the market can do better* it's far less of a criticism against Nikon than in Canon's case with the 6D2, where Canon deliberately withheld their new and improved sensor tech from the camera. Call it hypocrisy if you will, but that's the way I see it.

* The exception is the Pentax K-1 in pixel-shift mode, this does outclass the D810 but pixel shift is a niche function that is not appropriate for use in every instance so it isn't a real comparison. With pixel shift disabled, the D810 beats the K1.



Aug 27, 2017 at 03:47 PM
arbitrage
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Aztatlan wrote:
If the preliminary data on the charts is correct it does look like the D850 offers zero advancement in DR at base ISO. Whilst this is disappointing (not that I was planning on buying a D850 - I just like seeing tech move forward) in my eyes the key differentiation between this case and the 6D2 case is that the D810 already offered class-leading and unmatched* base ISO DR. The 6D did not.

Nikon have seemingly failed to improve base ISO DR (looks like high ISO has improved a little though) but I think most people will realise that as
...Show more

I agree that Nikon breaking even with the D810 with the new D850 isn't as big of an issue as the 6D2 was. But there are already better DR sensors that the D850 could have strived for. The D750 is almost 1 stop better at ISO 100 and only because the D810/50 can go down to ISO 64 do they then match it. Also the 42MP A7R2 has about 1/2 stop on the D810/50 at ISO 100 and is a full stop better from ISO 640 up.



Aug 27, 2017 at 04:07 PM
mogud
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Aztatlan wrote:
If the preliminary data on the charts is correct it does look like the D850 offers zero advancement in DR at base ISO. Whilst this is disappointing (not that I was planning on buying a D850 - I just like seeing tech move forward) in my eyes the key differentiation between this case and the 6D2 case is that the D810 already offered class-leading and unmatched* base ISO DR. The 6D did not.

Nikon have seemingly failed to improve base ISO DR (looks like high ISO has improved a little though) but I think most people will realise that as
...Show more

Respectfully, I think you are missing the point of my post. Upfront, i'm not favouring one brand or the other. Competion benefits consumers which obviously is a good thing.

IMHO, comparing the technology advancements(or lack thereof) between the 6D2 and the 850 seems a little silly. The 6D2 is not in the same market segment as the 850. If DR in the 6D2 has not advanced accordingly, no surprise. This camera is an entry level ff body.

I'd expect the 850 to be on or close to the edge. Given reports, it appears it's not which gives me cause to think Nikon may have dropped the veritable ball. Or the testing done on the 850 has holes in its logic.



Aug 27, 2017 at 04:14 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


mogud wrote:
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point of my post. Upfront, i'm not favouring one brand or the other. Competion benefits consumers which obviously is a good thing.

IMHO, comparing the technology advancements(or lack thereof) between the 6D2 and the 850 seems a little silly. The 6D2 is not in the same market segment as the 850. If DR in the 6D2 has not advanced accordingly, no surprise. This camera is an entry level ff body.

I'd expect the 850 to be on or close to the edge. Given reports, it appears it's not which gives me cause to
...Show more

I think it's more useful to compare a sensor's level of improvement relative to its immediate predecessor and also to the maximum performance one can expect from current bayer technology with the balance between the low and high ISO noise. By that latter measure the D810 sensor is very hard to improve upon at low ISO DR, with some room room to improve at High ISO DR. Bill added more data today that indicates the latter has occurred:

D810 vs D850 read noise (engineering DR)



Aug 27, 2017 at 04:26 PM
Aztatlan
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


arbitrage wrote:
I agree that Nikon breaking even with the D810 with the new D850 isn't as big of an issue as the 6D2 was. But there are already better DR sensors that the D850 could have strived for. The D750 is almost 1 stop better at ISO 100 and only because the D810/50 can go down to ISO 64 do they then match it. Also the 42MP A7R2 has about 1/2 stop on the D810/50 at ISO 100 and is a full stop better from ISO 640 up.


When comparing the D810 vs D750, ISO100 performance is only relevant in so far as it is the base ISO of one camera but not the other. Of course the D750 should perform better than another camera which is running at 2/3 of a stop over base if you compare both at ISO100. When talking base ISO DR, compare both at their base rather than one at base and one boosted above it. As an aside, the D750 whilst offering excellent DR is much lower resolution so who knows if the same performance could be translated to a higher MP sensor.

---------------------------------------------

mogud wrote:
Respectfully, I think you are missing the point of my post. Upfront, i'm not favouring one brand or the other. Competion benefits consumers which obviously is a good thing.

IMHO, comparing the technology advancements(or lack thereof) between the 6D2 and the 850 seems a little silly. The 6D2 is not in the same market segment as the 850. If DR in the 6D2 has not advanced accordingly, no surprise. This camera is an entry level ff body.

I'd expect the 850 to be on or close to the edge. Given reports, it appears it's not which gives me cause to
...Show more

My point was just that some in this thread are having a chuckle at Nikons expense that like Canons recent release they have not improved DR, and yet in the case of the D850 there was clearly less headroom to advance than what is obviously available to Canon given they already have better sensor tech in use in other bodies.



Aug 27, 2017 at 05:05 PM
Paul Mo
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?




technic wrote:
Agree about all that except that (as therealthings also mentions) it applies to hobby photographers as well.


The last line was about hobby photographers.



Aug 27, 2017 at 06:54 PM
arbitrage
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Nikon d850 announced; next step from Canon?


Aztatlan wrote:
When comparing the D810 vs D750, ISO100 performance is only relevant in so far as it is the base ISO of one camera but not the other. Of course the D750 should perform better than another camera which is running at 2/3 of a stop over base if you compare both at ISO100. When talking base ISO DR, compare both at their base rather than one at base and one boosted above it. As an aside, the D750 whilst offering excellent DR is much lower resolution so who knows if the same performance could be translated to a higher MP
...Show more

Yes, if one is looking for DR at the lowest ISO possible and a lot of MPs then the D810/D850 should remain at the top. Personally, I really only care from ISO 400 upwards so usually almost all the cameras are very similar, even older Canon sensors. Nikon D5 would be the best for my uses as it has a noticeable high ISO DR and noise advantage but I'm not paying $8,400 CDN for one.



Aug 27, 2017 at 07:14 PM
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