Home · Register · Software · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4      
5
       6       end
  

First Sony Impression
  
 
Mystik
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
If your "creative approach" is to under-expose files by 4 stops on a regular basis, and then spend an hour on each photo dodging and burning it, that's fine if it's your personal work but you're going to have a hard time scaling that into a business. If that's not your aim, that's fine - but I'd rather spend more time behind a camera than in front of a computer.


A simple push of the exposure and pulling back the highlights takes maybe 10 seconds to complete. It's done with sliders right there in the raw converter. No dodging and burning necessary. Fundamentally, this is the only difference between what you're doing in post, and what people who use the ETTR method are doing.

Anytime I dig deeper into processing, its for creative purposes, or to correct skin tones, color casts...whatever. These are steps that would be done regardless of how I exposed the shot in the camera.



Oct 05, 2017 at 07:35 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
It's a difference of opinion for sure and I never said the only way to deal with high contrast scenes is to use off camera lights and reflectors etc (though for me acting solo I can set up a strobe on location and set my exposure extremely quickly). It's one way to skin a cat - I'd prefer to use natural light, and find good light (which yes is still quite possible in even challenging conditions). I personally don't think it's a good idea to depend on pushing a file by 4 stops and shadows by 100+ on a regular
...Show more

Well I see a difference right off the bat. You look for good light where you can take your staged portraits. I look to where the action is and deal with the light that is given to me. That to me is a fundamental difference in our approaches. You stage your photos, I take spontaneous photos.

As far as taking time in post, not a chance. Quick adjustments is all that is really required. In fact I had to take much longer with my Canon images to deal with noise in the shadows and colour banding issues.



Oct 05, 2017 at 07:43 PM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · First Sony Impression


Mystik wrote:
A simple push of the exposure and pulling back the highlights takes maybe 10 seconds to complete. It's done with sliders right there in the raw converter. No dodging and burning necessary. Fundamentally, this is the only difference between what you're doing in post, and what people who use the ETTR method are doing.

Anytime I dig deeper into processing, its for creative purposes, or to correct skin tones, color casts...whatever. These are steps that would be done regardless of how I exposed the shot in the camera.


Hmm I doubt that, as simple slider edits seems to not agree with the previous image you posted. From what you described of that situation, you had to shoot midday as I can't see harsh noon raccoon shadows on her face, so I would assume she is being shot in open shade, and per your description exposed for the background behind her.

If you simply pushed the exposure back up in 4 stops in post, you would get an image with your subject exposed correctly, and a blown out background. If your subject was in open shade her exposure would read darker than the background, and in the file you posted there seems to be a heavy amount of processing on her to bring her relative exposure up.. so something doesn't add up. Simple slider edits won't solve for a massive difference in relative exposure.

But whatever, this has been fun but I think we're talking two different languages.



Oct 06, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Mystik
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Hmm I doubt that, as simple slider edits seems to not agree with the previous image you posted. From what you described of that situation, you had to shoot midday as I can't see harsh noon raccoon shadows on her face, so I would assume she is being shot in open shade, and per your description exposed for the background behind her.

If you simply pushed the exposure back up in 4 stops in post, you would get an image with your subject exposed correctly, and a blown out background. If your subject was in open shade her exposure would read
...Show more

That screenshot is straight from the raw converter and you can see the slider settings right there. Nothing additional was done to the photo at that point...its a screenshot from lightroom.

Simple edits to fix the exposure are precisely why we use the ETTR method to maximize DR. She was placed in open shade, which is why you have an even exposure on her face without unflattering shadows. The reason the background is not blown out is because I underexposed by 4 stops to retain the highlight detail, so when I push the exposure in post, the highlights are not blown out. That's the benefit of having more DR on tap. You keep assuming this is wrong is isn't possible, but this is precisely what we've been trying to explain to you.

Edit: I went ahead and made a video of me re-processing the photo from SOOC to what you saw. I lied.....it took 20 seconds, not 10






Oct 06, 2017 at 02:54 AM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · First Sony Impression


Mystik wrote:
That screenshot is straight from the raw converter and you can see the slider settings right there. Nothing additional was done to the photo at that point...its a screenshot from lightroom.

Simple edits to fix the exposure are precisely why we use the ETTR method to maximize DR. She was placed in open shade, which is why you have an even exposure on her face without unflattering shadows. The reason the background is not blown out is because I underexposed by 4 stops to retain the highlight detail, so when I push the exposure in post, the highlights are not blown
...Show more

I don't think you're realizing what you did to the image in post. You just blew out/over-exposed the background in post, rather than doing it in camera, congrats.



Oct 06, 2017 at 03:57 AM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · First Sony Impression


chez wrote:
Well I see a difference right off the bat. You look for good light where you can take your staged portraits. I look to where the action is and deal with the light that is given to me. That to me is a fundamental difference in our approaches. You stage your photos, I take spontaneous photos.

As far as taking time in post, not a chance. Quick adjustments is all that is really required. In fact I had to take much longer with my Canon images to deal with noise in the shadows and colour banding issues.


Ira Block just posted some stuff from Fez today. Somehow he took a street photo there in the apparently impossible light. Still this is Ira Block



Oct 06, 2017 at 04:01 AM
Frogfish
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Ira Block just posted some stuff from Fez today. Somehow he took a street photo there in the apparently impossible light. Still this is Ira Block


Not sure what your obsession with Ira Block is all about but not everyone rates him as highly as you do. Like most photographers he's hit and miss (IMHO) and yes I have him and many others on Instagram so see their work as soon as posted.

I'm not sure which Fez(Fes) shot you're referring to but on Instagram he has a medina shot of a woman strolling down the street (severely blown highlights), a shot over the medina from a rooftop, a Jemaa el-Fnaa shot from Marrakech or of course you may be talking about one of the many posed shots ?

Prefer my own to be honest (thedragonsfather). There's nothing special on his FB or Instagram timelines.

As for your arguments re. the Sony vs Canon sensors, all I'm seeing is confirmation bias rather than facts. People need to convince themselves that their decisions (in your case to drop Sony and return to Canon) are correct.

There are still valid reasons to switch systems, in either direction, it depends what you require from your gear/service, however arguing against what can be done with the Sony sensor in favour of (or simply as an alternative to) workarounds on Canon's isn't one of them, IMO.

BTW I still use Nikon for sports and birds and wouldn't change except if challenged by airline weight restrictions or having to hike for days with the heft of my Nikons.


Edited on Oct 06, 2017 at 01:55 PM · View previous versions



Oct 06, 2017 at 09:49 AM
Mystik
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
I don't think you're realizing what you did to the image in post. You just blew out/over-exposed the background in post, rather than doing it in camera, congrats.


The output from that video clip I showed you produced basically the same image as the screenshot I showed you earlier. With the screen shot you insisted that I did 1 hour of post processing trickery because there's no way I could have balanced the relative exposures of the subject and the background, but with the video clip now the background is blown out?

Lol ok whatever. You're closed minded bias towards thinking your way of doing things is the only way is going to make you feel that anything anyone tells or shows you is wrong, so clearly this isn't a productive conversation anyway.

Personally as a photographer, I'm always open minded to new methods of creating a shot, and that's all the ETTR method is...an alternative to using artificial lighting when shooting portraits. And yes this is a well understood and utilized method outlined here: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1383282

It isn't the only way of doing things of course, I have strobes and reflectors that I use when the time is right, but also leverage the DR of the camera so I don't have to rely as much on them.



Oct 06, 2017 at 11:37 AM
mttran
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · First Sony Impression


"As for your arguments re. the Sony vs Canon sensors, all I'm seeing is confirmation bias rather than facts"

+1, A closed minds never believe in facts. They just trolling, ignore them.



Oct 06, 2017 at 02:30 PM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · First Sony Impression


Eh difference of opinion on proper photographic technique. You could have made that photo with a much less capable camera, but I suppose Iím so close minded that I donít understand the need to retain highlight detail in a completely out of focus background

Mystik wrote:
The output from that video clip I showed you produced basically the same image as the screenshot I showed you earlier. With the screen shot you insisted that I did 1 hour of post processing trickery because there's no way I could have balanced the relative exposures of the subject and the background, but with the video clip now the background is blown out?

Lol ok whatever. You're closed minded bias towards thinking your way of doing things is the only way is going to make you feel that anything anyone tells or shows you is wrong, so clearly this isn't
...Show more



Oct 06, 2017 at 03:10 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · First Sony Impression


I give up. Apparently you believe anyone that suggests proper shooting technique is getting it right in camera is a hopeless relic, whereas I think someone that relies on tech to save exposures on a regular basis is perhaps a bit misled, and generally unwise when youíre a professional photographer.

Ha suppose Iím also a troll now too in suggesting Ira Block is a decent photographer (in case you missed it I mentioned him because heís a Sony shooter) and that you could learn some things in terms of street photography from him.

Frogfish wrote:
Not sure what your obsession with Ira Block is all about but not everyone rates him as highly as you do. Like most photographers he's hit and miss (IMHO) and yes I have him and many others on Instagram so see their work as soon as posted.

I'm not sure which Fez(Fes) shot you're referring to but on Instagram he has a medina shot of a woman strolling down the street (severely blown highlights), a shot over the medina from a rooftop, a Jemaa el-Fnaa shot from Marrakech or of course you may be talking about one of the many
...Show more



Oct 06, 2017 at 03:30 PM
mttran
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · First Sony Impression


To get back to the tilte of this thread, beside better imaging sensor in every generation they've released, this is my view why I shoot sony (cross posted from other thread):

"It's all about choices but an open system is always a better choice to grow/tailor our specs whenever/whatever we need it. To me, there is nothing out there better than (F)E mount platform where the desire Sensor Size/DR/AE/AF/Video/Weight/etc.... can be perfectly & natively integrated to archive the best IQ performance for every available lenses from most MFGs. Mirror less object oriented soft techs and multi-level hardware supports from E mount platform has changed my view about how camera and lenses supposed to work universal way these days. We, photographic community should thank for this possible choice and remember not to handcuff our self to any manufacture classification, a worst dependent direction like we had in the old days"

I am now a free man to change my specs anytime any day of the weeks.


Edited on Oct 06, 2017 at 04:10 PM · View previous versions



Oct 06, 2017 at 03:55 PM
Frogfish
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
I give up. Apparently you believe anyone that suggests proper shooting technique is getting it right in camera is a hopeless relic, whereas I think someone that relies on tech to save exposures on a regular basis is perhaps a bit misled, and generally unwise when youíre a professional photographer.

Ha suppose Iím also a troll now too in suggesting Ira Block is a decent photographer (in case you missed it I mentioned him because heís a Sony shooter) and that you could learn some things in terms of street photography from him.



I already know he's a Sony shooter .... but a lot of his shots are posed and as I pointed out that shot of a woman in the Medina (the shot with massively blown highlights) would have hit my trash can within seconds, not been posted on Instagram !

As for your first paragraph .. where did I say that ? Clearly I didn't, I was simply talking about a sensor not anyone's technique(s). But do carry on, you're entertaining at the very least.




Oct 06, 2017 at 04:09 PM
Mystik
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Eh difference of opinion on proper photographic technique. You could have made that photo with a much less capable camera, but I suppose Iím so close minded that I donít understand the need to retain highlight detail in a completely out of focus background



I'm not saying it couldn't be made with a lesser camera, but it would involve a need for external lighting which I did not need to use. Photography is a creative process......there is no such thing as proper or improper technique as long as you can create the photo as intended....and the ETTR method can work just as well as lugging a bunch of lighting equipment around. You keep insisting that underexposing a shot in camera is somehow improper technique, and yes that is closed minded.

And tonal detail does matter to me when it comes to out of focus areas...if I wanted to shoot my subject without any context in the background, I would shoot in the studio. You throw the background out of focus to center the attention of the photo on your subject, but the details in the background are still important to provide context. And big blotches of overexposed white in the background not only do not provide context, they distract from the subject.



Oct 06, 2017 at 04:19 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · First Sony Impression


Frogfish wrote:
But do carry on, you're entertaining at the very least.



No really.



Oct 06, 2017 at 04:35 PM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · First Sony Impression


Ah sorry, I responded to the wrong person while sitting on the toilet lol.

As for Ira, I've seen his recent work printed about 4x6 feet, and it's stunning (the work he recently did in Cuba that will be in his upcoming book). If you look at his decades long career, I respect his work a lot more than weirdos like McCurry.

Frogfish wrote:
I already know he's a Sony shooter .... but a lot of his shots are posed and as I pointed out that shot of a woman in the Medina (the shot with massively blown highlights) would have hit my trash can within seconds, not been posted on Instagram !

As for your first paragraph .. where did I say that ? Clearly I didn't, I was simply talking about a sensor not anyone's technique(s). But do carry on, you're entertaining at the very least.






Oct 06, 2017 at 05:10 PM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · First Sony Impression


Again, for your personal work that's great, and my opinion doesn't matter.

From a professional standpoint, there are exceptions but generally you won't see anyone that makes a living with their work doing what you do (on a regular basis to make images).

Mystik wrote:
I'm not saying it couldn't be made with a lesser camera, but it would involve a need for external lighting which I did not need to use. Photography is a creative process......there is no such thing as proper or improper technique as long as you can create the photo as intended....and the ETTR method can work just as well as lugging a bunch of lighting equipment around. You keep insisting that underexposing a shot in camera is somehow improper technique, and yes that is closed minded.

And tonal detail does matter to me when it comes to out of focus areas...if
...Show more




Oct 06, 2017 at 05:14 PM
Mystik
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Again, for your personal work that's great, and my opinion doesn't matter.

From a professional standpoint, there are exceptions but generally you won't see anyone that makes a living with their work doing what you do (on a regular basis to make images).



Oh please get of your "professional photographer" high horse. No one cares about what methods we used to create a photo so long as they are happy with the end result.



Oct 06, 2017 at 05:19 PM
sungphoto
Online
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · First Sony Impression


Try your "method" while you have a client looking at your tethered images on a nice big monitor.

It's a great way to never get booked again by an agency

Mystik wrote:
Oh please get of your "professional photographer" high horse. No one cares about what methods we used to create a photo so long as they are happy with the end result.





Oct 06, 2017 at 05:27 PM
Mystik
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Try your "method" while you have a client looking at your tethered images on a nice big monitor.

It's a great way to never get booked again by an agency



Eh the only time I shoot tethered is in studio where ETTR doesn't apply. For outdoor shoots, yes I show clients the images on the back of the camera all of the time so they can preview, and no its never an issue because people in this day and age understand that there is a digital post processing phase that happens before the final product is delivered.



Oct 06, 2017 at 05:32 PM
1       2       3       4      
5
       6       end






FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4      
5
       6       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username     Reset password