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First Sony Impression
  
 
sungphoto
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · First Sony Impression


chez wrote:
Trouble with that ďorganic noiseĒ, whatever that even means, is you have to also take those very inorganic blotchy colour banding that Canon is quite infamous for.


I literally explained what I mean by organic noise in my post?

I have never had issues with color banding with my canon sensors, but again I don't routinely need to push a file by 4 stops.



Oct 04, 2017 at 05:02 PM
Mystik
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
It's a great sensor but it's not a miracle worker, and again there's no free lunch. When you artificially boost shadow and exposure in post you will start to expose artifacts that may not have been apparent in the very under-exposed original image like color shift, color contamination and tint from reflective sources, and you will start to introduce noise regardless.



See the screen capture I posted. It's a 4 stop push and some shadow lifting. None of those artifacts you speak of exist.

Pushing the exposure has no bearing on things like color casts from reflective sources...those exist regardless. Pushing the exposure 4 stops is a uniform push. Lifting shadows aggressively uncovers a lot of unwanted detail...which is why I push the overall exposure (which is a uniform push) aggressively, and lift the shadows less aggressively.

The key things that pushing the exposure does is allow you to preserve the highlights without having any bearing on the mid-tones and shadows. With sufficient dynamic range, the shadows and mid-tones look the same way after a 2+ stop push in post as they would if you used an EC of 0 in camera, but the highlights maintain all of the tonal detail you saw in the field.



Oct 04, 2017 at 05:17 PM
sungphoto
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · First Sony Impression


Mystik wrote:
See the screen capture I posted. It's a 4 stop push and some shadow lifting. None of those artifacts you speak of exist.

Pushing the exposure has no bearing on things like color casts from reflective sources...those exist regardless. Pushing the exposure 4 stops is a uniform push. Lifting shadows aggressively uncovers a lot of unwanted detail...which is why I push the overall exposure (which is a uniform push) aggressively, and lift the shadows less aggressively.

The key things that pushing the exposure does is allow you to preserve the highlights without having any bearing on the mid-tones and shadows. With sufficient
...Show more

I think for your personal work, the only thing that matters is that you're happy with the image and what it looks like post-processed, which is why I didn't comment on what you posted.

I personally would prefer not to post-process an image as heavily, as to my taste it looks somewhat unnatural and over-processed. And I don't really understand the need to retain every highlight detail in a completely out of focus background.

When it comes to issues with the subject and color castes, artifacts etc - if your subject is captured 4 stops under-exposed in the field, then you might not notice them until you get the files loaded into your computer and spend an hour doing post on it (the EVF is great for reviewing images but unless you're tethering on location, you're not going to be able to see what the image will look like it until you get it back home).

And yes I agree those color castes, artifacts etc will exist regardless of whether the subject is properly exposed or underexposed, but pushing a file by +50 to 100 shadow detail and +4 exposure will amplify those color castes and noise because you essentially artificially amplifying the exposure. That's what I mean in terms of not being comfortable pushing any file to that degree, regardless of whether it's a sony one or a canon one, for client work. I also like to spend more time shooting than in front of a computer, and if I had to spend a bunch of time post-processing an image to get it to the point where I liked it, I would probably go get a day job again.

When you're in the field it's also nice to give some positive reinforcement by showing the subjects the photos you're taking - if you're doing for example an engagement shoot with people that aren't used to having their photos taken, showing them 4 stop underexposed photos will generally not be confidence inspiring to them.



Oct 04, 2017 at 05:42 PM
Mystik
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
And yes I agree those color castes, artifacts etc will exist regardless of whether the subject is properly exposed or underexposed, but pushing a file by +50 to 100 shadow detail and +4 exposure will amplify those color castes and noise because you essentially artificially amplifying the exposure. That's what I mean in terms of not being comfortable pushing any file to that degree, regardless of whether it's a sony one or a canon one, for client work. I also like to spend more time shooting than in front of a computer, and if I had to spend a bunch
...Show more

Actually pushing the exposure doesn't amplify anything you wouldn't see if you took the shot at EV0 in camera. There's a concept of ISO invariance that applies to newer sensors, including the ones from Canon. Basically, the only difference between taking a shot at EV 0, and taking it at EV -4 and pushing the exposure 4 stops is the amount of tonal detail in the highlights that is preserved. The mid-tones and the shadows remain unchanged. Lifting the shadows will often bring out unwanted details because that is not a uniform push of the exposure, but this is different from pushing the exposure value uniformly.

Note the settings on the shot (ISO50, 12,800s). Piss-poor time of the day to shoot but that was the time they wanted to schedule. She was sitting in the shade so there was a lot of contrast between her and the background. Had I not exposed for the highlights, the entire background would have been blown out to white, but if you consider that natural then so be it.

I show my clients photos on my camera all the time, and have no issues providing raws when asked for them...but they understand that the images on the back of the camera and the raw files are 'unfinished' and have no issue with it. In this day in age its well understood that digital post processing is part of the compositional process.




Oct 05, 2017 at 12:47 AM
brian_f2.8
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · First Sony Impression


Directly from Sony Pro Services.


Oct 05, 2017 at 01:40 AM
philip_pj
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · First Sony Impression


'never had issues with color banding with my canon sensors'

'Canon shooters have adapted to its shortcomings by bracketing and exposing images to the right (ETTR). It's usually unnoticeable in good light if you don't start playing with the shadows too much in post. But, even perfectly exposed shots in high contrast lighting will have *color* and luma noise in the shadows when pushed one or two stops. To make matters worse, you might even find some *banding or visible horizontal and vertical line patterns*'

'The Sony A7R has impressive signal to noise ratio (SNR) at low ISO and has higher dynamic range. There's tons of detail in the shadows. I pushed the shadows several stops without any hint of *color noise*.'

http://www.fredmiranda.com/A7R-review/
(asters are mine from Fred's review, for emphasis)

ISO invariance (ISO-lessness):
http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/is-the-d810-isoless/



Oct 05, 2017 at 03:10 AM
Sirfishalot
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · First Sony Impression


I still shoot my Canon 1DX (ver1) in addition to my Sony A7RII which I've only had for a few weeks. I've had the A7II before that for about a year. I was previously under the impression that the A7RII would be close in noise performance to the 1DX. I'll be shooting a concert this weekend and debating which camera to take, not really having used the 7RII in low light before. Did a quick test this evening to check the noise and I was really surprised by the huge difference.
Both were taken with the 70-200/2.8L II at 70mm, f2.8 at ISO 128000.
1DX image on the left, A7rII on the right.

JayT







Oct 05, 2017 at 04:25 AM
sungphoto
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · First Sony Impression


philip_pj wrote:
'never had issues with color banding with my canon sensors'

'Canon shooters have adapted to its shortcomings by bracketing and exposing images to the right (ETTR). It's usually unnoticeable in good light if you don't start playing with the shadows too much in post. But, even perfectly exposed shots in high contrast lighting will have *color* and luma noise in the shadows when pushed one or two stops. To make matters worse, you might even find some *banding or visible horizontal and vertical line patterns*'

'The Sony A7R has impressive signal to noise ratio (SNR) at low ISO and has higher dynamic
...Show more

Yup the Sony has a great sensor, you're preaching to the choir on that.

And I never said Canon sensors are immune to banding, re-read what I posted.

Seriously, you guys are acting like I'm insulting your mothers or something.



Oct 05, 2017 at 04:43 AM
mttran
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · First Sony Impression


I choked A7R with 50L1.0 at high noon in hot CA summer time and here is 100% crop of Wide DR shadow noise test look like - amazing clean: http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7589/16848729598_13f7150e91_o.jpg



Oct 05, 2017 at 04:47 AM
philip_pj
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · First Sony Impression


Just dealing with the statement and reasonable implications to be drawn from it, readers see your quote at the page top.

I think what it is, is that you and a lot of Canonistas quite reasonably figure that IF you work around the (older) Canon sensors' - shall we say - shortcomings with flash, assistants etc, all is well, and that is the trad event pro take on things. I simply want to indicate that (i) many people need to lift shadows in the course of their very different work, and (ii) the market leader has fallen badly behind the newcomer and that makes a serious difference to the end result for these folks. And how about that ISO invariance, how good is that? I never rated ETTR highly, O/E too risky and flaky highlights afterwards.

If you are the market leader, people form certain expectations of high performance. Reputations are built over years and decades, and lost in a very short period, and that is what is happening to Canon - they grew very complacent, with old sensor tech and an ancient prime lens range. Given lead times it's a slide that is hard to arrest. Then, their Mickey Mouse effort at MILC thus far. It might fool the uninformed consumer demographic for a while, but not people here. The company might yet rise phoenix-like, but who'd put money on it?



Oct 05, 2017 at 06:12 AM
 

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sungphoto
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · First Sony Impression


philip_pj wrote:
Just dealing with the statement and reasonable implications to be drawn from it, readers see your quote at the page top.

I think what it is, is that you and a lot of Canonistas quite reasonably figure that IF you work around the (older) Canon sensors' - shall we say - shortcomings with flash, assistants etc, all is well, and that is the trad event pro take on things. I simply want to indicate that (i) many people need to lift shadows in the course of their very different work, and (ii) the market leader has fallen badly behind the
...Show more

Huh? I own Canon, Sony and Fuji. I shot with primarily Sony gear professionally for a couple years before I switch back to Canon for my professional kit, and have put hundreds of thousands of frames through them.

Striving to get it right in camera isn't working around any specific camera's shortcomings, it's a business requirement. Saying that I'm suggesting using some sort of reflector, strobe, etc to get a proper exposure in camera rather than spending an hour in post dodging and burning a single image is in my opinion being a good photographer, rather than an excellent photoshopper. But apparently we have a difference in opinion on that.



Oct 05, 2017 at 06:32 AM
chez
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Huh? I own Canon, Sony and Fuji. I shot with primarily Sony gear professionally for a couple years before I switch back to Canon for my professional kit, and have put hundreds of thousands of frames through them.

Striving to get it right in camera isn't working around any specific camera's shortcomings, it's a business requirement. Saying that I'm suggesting using some sort of reflector, strobe, etc to get a proper exposure in camera rather than spending an hour in post dodging and burning a single image is in my opinion being a good photographer, rather than an excellent photoshopper. But
...Show more

Not different opinions...but maybe different photo conditions. There are many situations where you CANNOT stage a shoot with assistants holding reflectors in your efforts to "get it right in the camera". I'm going to be wandering the tight streets of Fes where I won't have anything with me but a camera. The bright sun with deep shadows in those streets will be challenging and you bet I'll need to lift shadows in post...no two ways around it. Won't have an assistant with me to bail out my camera.



Oct 05, 2017 at 01:02 PM
mttran
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · First Sony Impression


Why limited scenes with wide DR, shoot away with better sensor is always a pleasant. Don't we all want a tool with lesser lights constraint. I moved to Sony camp after couple boat and train trips to and from HaLong bay where the sun was always in front of me and my canon DSLR has failed me big time. My earlier A7R shadow lift sample was about 4 stops and still look pretty and this definitely helps to handle those WDR cases.

Edited on Oct 05, 2017 at 02:35 PM · View previous versions



Oct 05, 2017 at 02:19 PM
sungphoto
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · First Sony Impression


Or you could find and see the light (I mean isnít that one of our biggest pursuits?), donít shoot at noon on a bright sunny day, frame and compose differently so you donít have to lean on post processing as heavily.

If you havenít heard of him, an amazing Sony shooter, Ira Block has some great tips on proper composition and finding the right light in conditions like yours. I was privileged to see the images from his soon to be released book a couple years ago, printed large, and you rarely see massively high contrast in his work

chez wrote:
Not different opinions...but maybe different photo conditions. There are many situations where you CANNOT stage a shoot with assistants holding reflectors in your efforts to "get it right in the camera". I'm going to be wandering the tight streets of Fes where I won't have anything with me but a camera. The bright sun with deep shadows in those streets will be challenging and you bet I'll need to lift shadows in post...no two ways around it. Won't have an assistant with me to bail out my camera.




Oct 05, 2017 at 02:28 PM
mttran
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Or you could find and see the light (I mean isnít that one of our biggest pursuits?), donít shoot at noon on a bright sunny day, frame and compose differently so you donít have to lean on post processing as heavily.

If you havenít heard of him, an amazing Sony shooter, Ira Block has some great tips on proper composition and finding the right light in conditions like yours. I was privileged to see the images from his soon to be released book a couple years ago, printed large, and you rarely see massively high contrast in his work



But what happen when i have a beauty on a platform that I can't control with a challenge DR scene, packing my bag and come back for another 14000 miles trip to get a perfect lights ? there is a situation that we don't have the second chances, and this is exactly why i need a better tool than the current offer from canon. Stable AF and wider DR are two camera parameters that we all always need and none of my canon DSLRs hardly fully filled my requirement.


Edited on Oct 05, 2017 at 05:52 PM · View previous versions



Oct 05, 2017 at 03:10 PM
chez
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Or you could find and see the light (I mean isnít that one of our biggest pursuits?), donít shoot at noon on a bright sunny day, frame and compose differently so you donít have to lean on post processing as heavily.

If you havenít heard of him, an amazing Sony shooter, Ira Block has some great tips on proper composition and finding the right light in conditions like yours. I was privileged to see the images from his soon to be released book a couple years ago, printed large, and you rarely see massively high contrast in his work



You have no idea do you? Your entire photo experience has been artificial, ( assistants, reflectors, fill flash )...that's ok, but please don't go about spouting off to shoot only when you have good light. There are amazing photos to be taken with harsh light and shadows adding drama to the image. I understand you shooting Canon stay away from these scenes as they blow out the sensor, but I can definitely say you are missing out on great dramatic street images ( as life does continue to happen when the sun is high in the sky ) by shying away from midday.



Oct 05, 2017 at 03:46 PM
sungphoto
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · First Sony Impression


chez wrote:
You have no idea do you? Your entire photo experience has been artificial, ( assistants, reflectors, fill flash )...that's ok, but please don't go about spouting off to shoot only when you have good light. There are amazing photos to be taken with harsh light and shadows adding drama to the image. I understand you shooting Canon stay away from these scenes as they blow out the sensor, but I can definitely say you are missing out on great dramatic street images ( as life does continue to happen when the sun is high in the sky ) by shying
...Show more

You've found me out. I always walk around with a couple c-stands with strobes and a floppy when I'm taking photos of my nieces or a street scene in NY at high noon in natural light. It makes my camera bag a little big, but hey apparently my entire photo experience has been artificial.



Oct 05, 2017 at 04:10 PM
chez
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
You've found me out. I always walk around with a couple c-stands with strobes and a floppy when I'm taking photos of my nieces or a street scene in NY at high noon in natural light. It makes my camera bag a little big, but hey apparently my entire photo experience has been artificial.


Ok...you are right. The expanded dynamic range cameras are just for whoosies. "REAL" photographers either have an assistant to help control the light, or they make like a vampire and only shoot in nice light.




Oct 05, 2017 at 05:54 PM
sungphoto
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · First Sony Impression


chez wrote:
Ok...you are right. The expanded dynamic range cameras are just for whoosies. "REAL" photographers either have an assistant to help control the light, or they make like a vampire and only shoot in nice light.



It's a difference of opinion for sure and I never said the only way to deal with high contrast scenes is to use off camera lights and reflectors etc (though for me acting solo I can set up a strobe on location and set my exposure extremely quickly). It's one way to skin a cat - I'd prefer to use natural light, and find good light (which yes is still quite possible in even challenging conditions). I personally don't think it's a good idea to depend on pushing a file by 4 stops and shadows by 100+ on a regular basis, even on a camera that is capable of doing it. Just like I wouldn't jam on brakes with 40 feet from a wall knowing my car's braking distance at extremes is 40 feet. Getting it right in camera is the best route for me, and yes using better dynamic range where needed but if it's going to require a lot more time in post processing I bill the client for it. If your "creative approach" is to under-expose files by 4 stops on a regular basis, and then spend an hour on each photo dodging and burning it, that's fine if it's your personal work but you're going to have a hard time scaling that into a business. If that's not your aim, that's fine - but I'd rather spend more time behind a camera than in front of a computer.



Oct 05, 2017 at 06:09 PM
chiron
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · First Sony Impression


Sung--

Reading this analysis by Rishi Sanyal on iso invariance and the A7RII may help you to understand more fully the argument that Chez is making and why so many photographers value the ability to lift shadows without noise. See especially Sanyal's example of the girl on the horse on the beach.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7450523388/sony-alpha-7r-ii-real-world-iso-invariance-study



Oct 05, 2017 at 06:30 PM
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