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First Sony Impression
  
 
chez
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
An assistant holding a $20 reflector panel. Where's my prize


Yeh cool. So you bring along an assistant with you to say Marrakech just in case you encounter a great street scene that is backlit by the strong Moroccan sun?

Try again.



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:38 PM
sungphoto
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · First Sony Impression


chez wrote:
Yeh cool. So you bring along an assistant with you to say Marrakech just in case you encounter a great street scene that is backlit by the strong Moroccan sun?

Try again.


So you're asking for a solution that applies to every possible situation? Come on let's not be silly.

If someone paid you to take photos in Morocco, they can probably afford to pay a local kid a few bucks to hold a reflector. Better that then wreck an image by going HDR and lifting shadows by 100, but that's just my opinion.

The A7rii has a great sensor, but let's not make it out like it's some sort of magic camera. Taking a good photo is about problem solving and making decisions, and in certain cases I'd rather blow some of the highlights in order to make sure a subject is properly exposed without a ton of noise added in post. There's no free lunch



Oct 03, 2017 at 11:56 PM
philip_pj
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · First Sony Impression


Your prize is the phony facial expression on anyone unfortunate enough to have this attention and gear in their face.

'the Canon 85 f1.8'

Give Sony and Zeiss a chance, the system has to make do with four fabulous 85mm lenses, and Sony execs were still in high school when the mediocre 85/1.8 was released by Canon back in 1992. Canon are lucky to still have the tooling in the modern age. Still, who can blame them when users buy purely on the name, oblivious to what has happened in optics these past 25 years. Even their vaunted 85s are old, old.

But now, a 'Halley's Comet' once in a lifetime event: a new Canon 85mm. And only a mere $1600, the faithful will love it. It's a 14/11 monster at 950 grams, guess Sigma has been eating their lunch too long. And it's consumer friendly: 'Fluorine coatings on the front and rear surfaces help reduce fingerprints and smudging.'

Consumer ignorance never gets old if you have enough market power. Sony et al are geared for the leading edge enthusiast market, not the vagaries of the mass market. Which is probably why we see these kinds of threads here, inexplicably absent from the old companies' forums.

Maybe they need some 'last impressions of Canon' threads.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:00 AM
sungphoto
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · First Sony Impression


Mystik wrote:
Awesome. Tell us about your giant landscape sized reflector



I don't shoot landscapes, but from what I understand it's generally better to bracket shots and blend the exposures in post - which is a far better usage of post processing than taking one image and crossing your fingers that everything in it is exposed correctly.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:02 AM
Mystik
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
I don't shoot landscapes, but from what I understand it's generally better to bracket shots and blend the exposures in post - which is a far better usage of post processing than taking one image and crossing your fingers that everything in it is exposed correctly.


Except bracketing introduces artifacts, and anything in motion (including anything blowing in the wind) will be blurry.

There is no crossing your fingers that everything is exposed properly. Using the EVF and Zebras its easy to see how the exposure will look in the viewfinder.




Oct 04, 2017 at 12:09 AM
chez
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
So you're asking for a solution that applies to every possible situation? Come on let's not be silly.

If someone paid you to take photos in Morocco, they can probably afford to pay a local kid a few bucks to hold a reflector. Better that then wreck an image by going HDR and lifting shadows by 100, but that's just my opinion.

The A7rii has a great sensor, but let's not make it out like it's some sort of magic camera. Taking a good photo is about problem solving and making decisions, and in certain cases I'd rather blow some of the
...Show more

Well the beauty of a camera that has extended DR...you can choose to make use of it or you can still shoot with reflectors if it makes sense. A camera with limited DR just does not give you as many degrees of freedom, resulting in either a compromised image or compromised compositions.

I see extended DR very much the same way as high ISO abilities...after all we all managed taking photos with ASA 400 film and using flash...right.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:17 AM
sungphoto
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · First Sony Impression


Mystik wrote:
Except bracketing introduces artifacts, and anything in motion (including anything blowing in the wind) will be blurry.

There is no crossing your fingers that everything is exposed properly. Using the EVF and Zebras its easy to see how the exposure will look in the viewfinder.



Yup, like I mentioned before - there's no free lunch. Pushing a file by 4 stops and 100+ shadows also introduces artifacts. If you're getting blur in an image because your shutter speed is too low, then it's going to have blur in a single image as well as a bracketed one...

That said, I'm no landscape shooter so again whatever you're happy with. I think for anyone shooting people though, saying you have to shoot an A7rii in order to get to a proper exposure in post in a backlit image is utter nonsense.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:17 AM
Jman13
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
It is unfortunate that Sony doesn't have a lenses comparable to the Canon 85 f1.8, 50 f1.8 STM, 35 f2, 24-70 f4 L IS in terms of price and quality.


The Sony FE 85mm f/1.8 is more expensive the Canon version, but it's also a better lens. It's really an exceptional optic for the price, and competitive with the very best 85s out there (of any speed). Exceptionally sharp right from f/1.8, pretty good bokeh, and an overall very good look. A bit of CA, but better controlled than on the Canon 85.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:18 AM
sungphoto
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · First Sony Impression


Jman13 wrote:
The Sony FE 85mm f/1.8 is more expensive the Canon version, but it's also a better lens. It's really an exceptional optic for the price, and competitive with the very best 85s out there (of any speed). Exceptionally sharp right from f/1.8, pretty good bokeh, and an overall very good look. A bit of CA, but better controlled than on the Canon 85.


I'd agree the Sony FE 85 f1.8 is an exceptional lens, but having owned both I'd say they aren't that far apart in terms of sharpness, CA, and AF speed, especially when you consider the Canon 85 f1.8 can be had for about $200 used and a little bit more than that refurb from Canon with warranty. In other words - the Sony FE 85 f1.8 is not a 3 times better lens



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:23 AM
Jman13
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
I'd agree the Sony FE 85 f1.8 is an exceptional lens, but having owned both I'd say they aren't that far apart in terms of sharpness, CA, and AF speed, especially when you consider the Canon 85 f1.8 can be had for about $200 used and a little bit more than that refurb from Canon with warranty. In other words - the Sony FE 85 f1.8 is not a 3 times better lens


Well, it's not exactly fair when you consider a refurb or used price vs. the brand new price of a lens. It's also a very, very old lens design, so Canon has paid for the R&D many times over...



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:29 AM
 

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sungphoto
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · First Sony Impression


Jman13 wrote:
Well, it's not exactly fair when you consider a refurb or used price vs. the brand new price of a lens. It's also a very, very old lens design, so Canon has paid for the R&D many times over...


I'd say it's fair when the consumer benefits

Don't get me wrong - I loved my FE glass, and it was a little painful selling all of it, but I was always irritated by the price point. I mean come on - E mount sony zeiss 24 f1.8 is a great piece of glass, but it's still massively overpriced for what it is - compare to a relatively new lens like the Canon EF-M 22mm f2, which is exceptional, small, light and $250 new and a mirrorless lens.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:36 AM
chez
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
I'd say it's fair when the consumer benefits

Don't get me wrong - I loved my FE glass, and it was a little painful selling all of it, but I was always irritated by the price point. I mean come on - E mount sony zeiss 24 f1.8 is a great piece of glass, but it's still massively overpriced for what it is - compare to a relatively new lens like the Canon EF-M 22mm f2, which is exceptional, small, light and $250 new and a mirrorless lens.


Canon 11-24 f4 --- $2,800
Sony 12-24 f4 --- $1,700

And to boot, the Sony 12-24 delivers better images.



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:45 AM
Mystik
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Yup, like I mentioned before - there's no free lunch. Pushing a file by 4 stops and 100+ shadows also introduces artifacts. If you're getting blur in an image because your shutter speed is too low, then it's going to have blur in a single image as well as a bracketed one...

That said, I'm no landscape shooter so again whatever you're happy with. I think for anyone shooting people though, saying you have to shoot an A7rii in order to get to a proper exposure in post in a backlit image is utter nonsense.


Well the beauty of the Sony sensors is the ability to push up to 4 stops and lift the shadows aggressively without noise or artifacts. Also, contrasty light usually means fast shutters speeds. A single shot at a fast shutter speed will not have motion blur. Blended shots at fast shutter speeds will.




Oct 04, 2017 at 01:48 AM
sungphoto
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · First Sony Impression


Mystik wrote:
Well the beauty of the Sony sensors is the ability to push up to 4 stops and lift the shadows aggressively without noise or artifacts. Also, contrasty light usually means fast shutters speeds. A single shot at a fast shutter speed will not have motion blur. Blended shots at fast shutter speeds will.



Personally, I'm not a fan of pushing a file by 4 stops unless I can help it, but skin tones are a different beast than landscapes. I think that's the fundamental difference we're talking about here, and I'd say in that sense I could see why landscape photogs love the A7rii.

There's no way I would bet the success of a paid shoot on pushing a file to those extremes though. My personal work totally because only I care if I screw up a shot, but I'm in the "getting it right in camera" camp.



Oct 04, 2017 at 02:16 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · First Sony Impression


sung, landscapes are a total bastard at times, either so flat the histo occupies just 25% of the range, or with huge contrast and subject brightness range. The Sony sensors got seriously good (DR, noise) with the a99, the first of the fine grain noise pattern. One reason people like them for shadow recovery is the pleasant look of the noise. And there are definitely cases where users need to push the RAWs hard, from both ends.

You may not believe it, but the sensors are nevertheless a serious benefit for extreme shooting, where people must shoot ambient light. Paradoxically, it was Canon's poor shadow recovery noise behaviour that led s/w apps to get better fast at dealing with it, in a generic sense. We Sony users got a double gain, one from Sony, one from Canon (via Adobe et al).



Oct 04, 2017 at 07:34 AM
telyt
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
An assistant holding a $20 reflector panel. Where's my prize


won't work here




Edited on Oct 04, 2017 at 10:14 AM · View previous versions



Oct 04, 2017 at 10:12 AM
Arka
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · First Sony Impression


brian_f2.8 wrote:
Yesterday I had some time to kill so I went into Best Buy. Sure enough, I made my way back to the camera section for fun. Im a Leica, Nikon, Fuji fan(in that order). I never really used Sony but I will say I was impressed with the camera. I played around with an A7s? It was a nice camera, light weight and the FX must be really nice to have the extra information when editing.

What I didnt like and maybe some Sony users can help me understand is, why so expensive? I saw the price of a 24-70 and
...Show more

Dude, you're a Leica fan first. You should be accustomed to expensive lenses. What does the 24-90 f/2.8-4 and 50mm f/1.4 for the SL cost again?

Sony lenses are expensive but not extraordinarily so given the dSLR competition (and are a bargain compared to new Leica optics). One thing that I like about the Sony system, though, is the ease with which you can use Leica lenses, particularly small M lenses. I use Summilux 35 and 50mm M-mount lenses with a TechArt Pro autofocus adapter and have been pretty happy with the performance - it's smaller than my previous M240 setup, but with AF, better high ISO performance, and incredible speed.



Oct 04, 2017 at 10:14 AM
Mystik
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
Personally, I'm not a fan of pushing a file by 4 stops unless I can help it, but skin tones are a different beast than landscapes. I think that's the fundamental difference we're talking about here, and I'd say in that sense I could see why landscape photogs love the A7rii.

There's no way I would bet the success of a paid shoot on pushing a file to those extremes though. My personal work totally because only I care if I screw up a shot, but I'm in the "getting it right in camera" camp.


I actually shoot a lot of portraits and find the DR extremely useful for shooting in natural light without the need for reflectors or off camera lights. Don't get me wrong I have strobes and reflectors that I use when necessary (mostly creative reason), but the need for them has diminished quite a lot. Also, in really bright midday light (which I sometimes have to shoot in), even my strobes don't have enough power and reflectors bother my subject's eyes. Beyond that...jacking with reflectors and off camera lights disrupts the flow of the shoot. I prefer to do without them as it keeps me and my subject in a good rhythm of shooting and posing.

Shot last weekend....mid afternoon shoot

Screen Shot 2017-09-25 at 9.58.34 AM by Carlo Alcala, on Flickr




Edited on Oct 06, 2017 at 02:46 AM · View previous versions



Oct 04, 2017 at 12:12 PM
sungphoto
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · First Sony Impression


philip_pj wrote:
sung, landscapes are a total bastard at times, either so flat the histo occupies just 25% of the range, or with huge contrast and subject brightness range. The Sony sensors got seriously good (DR, noise) with the a99, the first of the fine grain noise pattern. One reason people like them for shadow recovery is the pleasant look of the noise. And there are definitely cases where users need to push the RAWs hard, from both ends.

You may not believe it, but the sensors are nevertheless a serious benefit for extreme shooting, where people must shoot ambient light. Paradoxically,
...Show more

I don't doubt the bench tests - I just am in the camp of getting it right in camera over doing a lot of post, so I haven't noticed a benefit in terms of shadow recovery going between Canon and Sony. I think I've pushed a file that much once in the past year, and that was just a personal shot I took during manhattan-henge last year (with an a7rii and batis 85 f1.8).

The funny thing about noise is that some people like Sony noise, but I always thought it looked very digital. I much prefer the iso noise on Canon sensors as it looks more "organic" like film grain.

It's a great sensor but it's not a miracle worker, and again there's no free lunch. When you artificially boost shadow and exposure in post you will start to expose artifacts that may not have been apparent in the very under-exposed original image like color shift, color contamination and tint from reflective sources, and you will start to introduce noise regardless.

Try under-exposing a photo by 4 stops when your client is watching your tethered images pop up


Edited on Oct 04, 2017 at 04:58 PM · View previous versions



Oct 04, 2017 at 04:37 PM
chez
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:
The funny thing about noise is that some people like Sony noise, but I always thought it looked very digital. I much prefer the iso noise on Canon sensors as it looks more "organic" like film grain.


Trouble with that “organic noise”, whatever that even means, is you have to also take those very inorganic blotchy colour banding that Canon is quite infamous for.



Oct 04, 2017 at 04:55 PM
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