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Archive 2017 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?

  
 
Isaacheus
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


So, just got photoshop and have been playing around with stacking and blending. It is very obvious that images that were never a reality can be easily created (not very well by myself yet, but the idea is there). With this in mind, where does a picture become an image/art rather than a true photo?

I know in the end it doesn't really matter, unless I was trying to pass it off as a true account of the scene, but it does kinda feel like cheating when you take the sky from one location and stick it on the foreground of another. Fun to play around with nonetheless



Aug 22, 2017 at 07:08 AM
schlotz
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


Not that it matters, but it's more like 'pandora's box'. According to the dictionary, "...a process that generates many complicated problems as the result of unwise interference in something."

That said, for me it's an exercise in a never ending 'gray area'. Just how far to go in the process. Virtually most of us sharpen for example, so the box is already open.



Aug 22, 2017 at 07:28 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


Picasso vs. Rembrandt ... both were image makers (as are we), yet there was clearly a difference in what they chose to do with their brushes.

Many purists (I once was one, decades ago) would suggest that the moment you do anything after it comes out of the camera, it is no longer a true photo. Imo, the salient difference is whether you are using your camera as a "recording" tool ... or an "image making" tool. Personally, I use it for both.

In the end, your image stands on its own merits ... which still is a process that involves both capture & processing (photo finishing). The amount and style of processing can range between none @ raw, to minimal @ standard(s), to creatively mild to creatively wild.

Your pic, your call.



Aug 22, 2017 at 07:38 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


I try to do what's necessary, and usually not more. Sometimes it's simply resize and sharpen for the output medium. Sometimes it's multiple images with extensive layering, with local exposure, colour, and sharpening/blur adjustments, and more. I try to get as much as possible done in the camera, but that won't stop me from taking photos that I know will need a lot of work. For example, I prefer to use a perspective-correcting lens, rather than correct perspective in PP, but that doesn't prevent me from taking photos that will need perspective adjustments, when I don't have a shift lens with me.


Aug 22, 2017 at 07:47 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


I think there is no clear boundary. Meaning that it is subjective - where the lines between photography and digital art diverge.

I consider it subjective because each of us has his or her own ideas and tastes.

I am conservative - having come from a documentary tell-it-like-it-is, press background.

Though I appreciate many forms of digital art it is not something that interests me as I do not have the patience, or the inclination.



Aug 22, 2017 at 07:48 AM
MintMar
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


RustyBug wrote:
(snip)
Many purists (I once was one, decades ago) would suggest that the moment you do anything after it comes out of the camera, it is no longer a true photo.
(snip)


You must have been a big purist then! :-) I still consider it a true photo still if it's a single image and I am applying simple stuff to it as a whole - curves, levels, exposure correction, white balance...




Aug 22, 2017 at 08:01 AM
melcat
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


Isaacheus wrote:
... unless I was trying to pass it off as a true account of the scene


Define "passing off". Is it passing off if the image is sitting in a landscape exhibition with no other commentary? Posted online in a forum or Flickr? Hanging in a fine art gallery?

I've certainly seen images in the past manipuilated in a way that most people here would call "not manipulated" that bore no resemblence to the original scene. It used to be the norm to put pumped-up Velvia shots in travel brochures, to the point that tourists started complaining that real life was a letdown. As photograohers, we could extrapolate back to what it was really going to look like, but the general public could not.

On the other hand, there are many cases where comping doesn't mislead, or corrects something misleading that happened to be in the original shot. But many publications have strict rules forbidding it.

There is no straightforward answer to your question. My own practice is either to manipulate a small amount so that it tends to reality, or manipulate in such a way it's obvious - to someone who knows me personally well enough to guess whether I "would have done that". If I do something unexpected outside those limits, I would be "passing off". Ultimately, you have to manage your viewers' expectations such that you maintain whatever trust you want to maintain with them.




Aug 22, 2017 at 08:25 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


It has gotten a fairly big grey zone especially now with digital. Photos always have been manipulated, also back in the film days. I try to post-process as limited as possible with digital files, but I normally apply a tonal adjustment curve to the RAW file and change a bit saturation values. Sometimes straightening the horizon level a bit for landscape shots. I rarely do cropping in general digital files.

For digitized film shots, PP is even more simple - brightness/contrast adjustment with removal of a few little dust specks, that's it for B&W. For digitized color film slides or negatives, additional slight saturation adjustments depending on the film used.

I have never been a fan of applying a number of layers in PS for post processing other than using layers in designated filter software plugins. If one thing in photography bothers me, it is too much required post processing which I find boring to do.



Aug 22, 2017 at 08:40 AM
ggreene
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


For me I draw the line at photojournalism. That's a type of photography that really should be about accuracy and not someones artistic expression. Problem is there are so many ways to fudge it that it's a very slippery slope.

There's a fair amount of hypocrisy among photojournalists as well. They have no problem with in camera processing but are vehemently against external software processing that does the same thing.




Aug 22, 2017 at 08:53 AM
justruss
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


It's subjective, of course.

But in my opinion much of it comes down to three basic criteria: What are the expectations of the medium/display context? How closely does the image adhere to the visual (not emotional, symbolic, etc.) composition as seen through the eyes? How is the image described/categorized?

I come at this from a journalistic background. I'm OK going as far as removing dust on sensor/lens, adjusting curves/white balance/color, and even more localized dodging/burning in order to achieve a realistic 2D version of 3D content as seen/processed through my eyes/brain. If in real life the shadows weren't crushed, I don't feel bad bringing them up to a reasonable (subjective alert) level to result in an image that better matches what I saw than what the RAW file and default settings of the converter brought out.

But will not clone in/out or composite or change colors to what I'd like but what wasn't there. I have submitted auto-merged, stitched panos to editors with massive captions clarifying how the shots were taken (hand held in immediate series) and how they were combined (auto-merged and checked at 100% for errors); I don't think any of these images have made it to print.

I think there are shifting cultural expectations for what photography means as baseline. For instance, I don't think that expectation includes photo-shopping a cat into a plate of spaghetti and passing it off as "what actually happened in real life." That's the baseline. But go ahead, show that cat=spaghetti image if you clearly label/explain/establish that what you've done is composite to create a photographic-based illustration or creation.

When in doubt, I ask my editors.

The subjective, and harder part, is finding that line where it's not clear how far things go: Do I bring up the shadows to what I could see through my processed-eye-brain image even if in photographic form that looks somewhat artificial or fake? Or do I leave the shadows crushed because that's more like what the capture medium looks like and we've come to expect? I guess this shifts over time, with technological and cultural changes-- but it's a fine line.



Aug 22, 2017 at 08:57 AM
Vancouver47
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


I look at it from a different perspective. We're just correcting Adobe RAW.


Aug 22, 2017 at 08:58 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


MintMar wrote:
You must have been a big purist then! :-) I still consider it a true photo still if it's a single image and I am applying simple stuff to it as a whole - curves, levels, exposure correction, white balance...



Chromes ... What Ya Shot Was What Ya Got.

But, even chromes required processing ... just that they mostly stuck to the "standard" processing to achieve the film's designed profile. (Cibachrome) print had some latitude from there, but nothing like the darkroom latitude of B&W negative film.

So, digital was envisioned such that we could all be our own film profile designers ... and thus, here we are ... and then some.

Realism vs. Fantasy vs. Interpretative ... the more things change, the more they stay the same ... Van Gogh, Picasso, Rembrandt. Nothing's new in the decisions we make regarding the images we produce, just different tools for doing so.




Aug 22, 2017 at 09:52 AM
Jim McCann
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


Every magazine I write and photograph for has their own "guidelines" for contributors to follow. One, in particular, is a magazine with a long history and huge circulation, and they require un-processed images. Well, how does one accomplish that with a digital camera shooting RAW images? It left me shaking my head for a few issues, but then I could notice obvious processing in the images they were publishing. I just prefer to do as little as possible in Lightroom and it works for me.


Aug 22, 2017 at 10:42 AM
rdeloe
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


Some people use cameras to make photographs they consider to be a relatively literal interpretation of something in the world. They are trying to capture a moment in time, in a particular place, and they're trying to represent it according to their artistic or professional judgement. I think these are "photographs". Other people use photographic images as raw materials for creating what I call "photoart". Jerry Uelsmann is an example of a visual artist who created images by combining digital negatives. John Paul Caponigro also creates photoart, but using digital techniques.

For me, it's about intent. If you're combining images or adding things to images, but you're presenting the result as a literal "photograph", then you've crossed an ethical line. Not that long ago Steve McCurry was embroiled in a controversy over where this line was in his work. Here's an interesting take on his work, with before-and-after pictures: https://petapixel.com/2016/05/06/botched-steve-mccurry-print-leads-photoshop-scandal/

The line between photographs and photoart is usually clear (especially if the artist is transparent about what he or she is presenting). However, the line between acceptable and unacceptable manipulation of an image is far from clear. Importantly, "acceptability" is a contextual and ethical question, not an artistic one. We need to be free to express ourselves artistically through photographs, and sometimes this means manipulating what the camera recorded (on film, or with a digital sensor). And this is an ages-old question by the way.

I used to be a film photographer and I did my own printing (black and white). I promise you that many black and white photographers and printers heavily manipulated the negative (at the exposure and development stages, and after development), and the print (through exposure, dodging, burning, etc.)

* Have a look at this story about the iconic Kent State Massacre photograph and the missing pole: http://petapixel.com/2012/08/29/the-kent-state-massacre-photo-and-the-case-of-the-missing-pole/ It's a case of removing distracting things from a negative through scratching them off!

* I also like the example of how Ansel Adams' interpretation of Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico changed over the years. The sky above the town became progressively darker -- and less like the actual scene -- with each iteration. This is all fair game: Adams was exploring his artistic vision, and that vision changed over the decades. http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/features/grant/ansel-adams-moonrise-hernandez-8-31-11.asp

As others have said, it's complicated. In my own work, I just try to be clear about my intent. I'm not a photojournalist. I make fine art black and white prints. They reflect my interpretation of the scene; they're not meant to be a literal photographic record for forensic purposes.




Aug 22, 2017 at 11:20 AM
Pixphatic
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


IMHO ... the moment a particular shot is completed in the camera and the 'gate' is closed, be it from the films or from the digital sensors, and the shutter goes up, the 'taking' part of a 'photograph' ends.Rest all, falls under the purview of ' making of a photograph'. BUT everything falls under 'photography'.
Even from slightest of straightening and cropping to excessive digital manipulations.., all falls under the ' making'. As some of friends have already made the point... these 'making' elements were there long before the digital era. We all know about photo-montage, super-imposition, blending, dodging, burning. These had been the dark-room techniques for ages. But they were specialist jobs, where few exhaled. With the advent of digital era, they have just become somewhat 'En Masse' and many accomplished with superlative performance.

The individual's style, the client's needs will determine the magnitude of editing. Also the genre of the photography impacts the level of 'editing', e.g. photo-journalism, wild-life and nature, candid street photography might qualify for a minimalist approach. Others might require more extensive processes.

So the question is not only subjective, it is dynamic as well. What is excess today, might be necessary tomorrow and vice versa.

Having said that, it seems the 'making part' of photography is slowly taking over the 'taking part' of photography. I guess the 'paradigm shift' is happening..... or already have happened.

My 2 cents.





Aug 22, 2017 at 11:37 AM
tuantran
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


RustyBug wrote:
Chromes ... What Ya Shot Was What Ya Got.


Don't forget about people putting filters in front to change the look, color, texture, mood, etc. It then becomes less pure.



Aug 22, 2017 at 12:39 PM
Sy Sez
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


Photographic imaging "manipulation" goes back to the "wet-Darkroom"; & since a Camera cannot capture what the human eye can perceive, processing to bring it closer to that "reality" can be thought of as a correction.

Digital just makes it easier, & with more options.

Faithful Documentation demands ethics of "Corrections" to insure a realistic portrayal.

Images for display, weather portraits, Nature, Landscapes etc. have the same "Poetic license" as any artistic endeavor.



Aug 22, 2017 at 12:43 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


For me it's the final image that matters, not how you achieved it.

We have wonderful tools I could only have dreamed of when I started, I will use them as necessary. I'm not precious about it. I've also learned to shoot with later processing in mind, it's just makes life easier.

YMMV

P.S. this doesn't have anything to do with Canon gear, just saying



Aug 22, 2017 at 01:04 PM
campy
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?


What if you take multiple stock photos and created one photo and passed it on as yours. Would that be dishonest or is the final creation all that counts?


Aug 22, 2017 at 01:41 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Where does the photography end, and editing take over?



campy wrote:
What if you take multiple stock photos and created one photo and passed it on as yours. Would that be dishonest or is the final creation all that counts?


That would be copyright theft
My post assumes the photographer made the images themself



Aug 22, 2017 at 01:52 PM
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