Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

Archive 2017 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.

  
 
SoundHound
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


I shoot low light stage dance action in mixed/changing lighting. Of necessity I must use ME.

Up until now the D5 has had the Hi ISO edge on FF bodies. However, the A9 has several advantages:

1. Tighter framing (with two, native, zooms) with Sony's full frame AF sensor coverage.

2. Faster, more accurate ME. Changing exposures are seen in the EVF-no need to test shoot then LCD Chimp.

3. Quicker ISO changes.With the "wheel" set for ISO there's faster selection and more accurate ISOs.

4. 3.4 more mP (24.2 vs the D5's 20.8) for more pixel density and "cropablity."

5. Faster, Sony T2.8 zoom lenses, My 24-70 & 70-200 GMs are approx 1/4 T stop faster than various zoom Nikkors.

I typically shoot at 6400 and 12,800 ISO. So far, I find no practical A9 Hi ISO deficit, through my RAW workflow, compared to the Nikon D5. With more experience I would expect the A9 to surpass the D5 in, effective, Hi ISO image quality.

Of course the A9 bonuses of a silent, 20 fps shutter are game changing-for me.



Aug 18, 2017 at 10:27 AM
Holger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


SoundHound wrote:
I shoot low light stage dance action in mixed/changing lighting. Of necessity I must use ME.

Up until now the D5 has had the Hi ISO edge on FF bodies. However, the A9 has several advantages:

1. Tighter framing (with two, native, zooms) with Sony's full frame AF sensor coverage.

2. Faster, more accurate ME. Changing exposures are seen in the EVF-no need to test shoot then LCD Chimp.

3. Quicker ISO changes.With the "wheel" set for ISO there's faster selection and more accurate ISOs.

4. 3.4 more mP (24.2 vs the D5's 20.8) for more pixel density and "cropablity."

5. Faster, Sony
...Show more
What I am always suspicious about is, if a lens, e.g. the 24-70/2.8GM, has a T-stop equalling the F-stop. We don't know whether the manufacturer applies some gain internally to overcome brightness differences, as measured by DXO (including the sensor).




Aug 18, 2017 at 11:25 AM
SoundHound
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


These T stops were quoted from plublished DxO tests.

Yes, in a lagre multi element lens there is, obviously, measurable light loss. So, for me, the inescapable conclusion is that there would be extra glass-somewhere since the T stop coukd not equal the, marked, F stop.



Aug 18, 2017 at 12:18 PM
GabrielPhoto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


SoundHound wrote:
I shoot low light stage dance action in mixed/changing lighting. Of necessity I must use ME.

Up until now the D5 has had the Hi ISO edge on FF bodies. However, the A9 has several advantages:


Since when it had the high ISO edge? Just because it had the silly super high ISO setting does not mean it actually had the best high ISO performance. Many cameras like the A7S, A7Rii etc actually beat it
I think Tony Northrup did a test also pushing to those super high ISO and it was an eye opener.









Aug 18, 2017 at 12:24 PM
snapsy
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


Here's an ISO 25,600 comparison using dpreview's widget. Normalized resolution, low-light mode:

A9 vs D5, ISO 25,600, normalized resolution, Low-Light Mode



Aug 18, 2017 at 12:36 PM
ggreene
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


The D5 looks better to me at every ISO in that comparison. I never did trust DXO's sports value.


Aug 18, 2017 at 12:50 PM
CMYK Designs
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


The D5 has a lot less noise for sure....looks like the A9 may have a little more contrast?


Aug 18, 2017 at 12:54 PM
GabrielPhoto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


ggreene wrote:
The D5 looks better to me at every ISO in that comparison. I never did trust DXO's sports value.


If there is one thing I never trusted was the DPReview comparison tool. I used it before and is a mess of odd results but to each its own. I even pointed out several issues to them several times and they were looking into it but never saw anything happen so I just dont use it any more.
Anyways...I stand by my comment, the D5 has an awesome on paper high ISO rating..good for brochures.
Regards



Aug 18, 2017 at 01:35 PM
snapsy
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


GabrielPhoto wrote:
If there is one thing I never trusted was the DPReview comparison tool. I used it before and is a mess of odd results but to each its own. I even pointed out several issues to them several times and they were looking into it but never saw anything happen so I just dont use it any more.
Anyways...I stand by my comment, the D5 has an awesome on paper high ISO rating..good for brochures.
Regards


Dpreview's widget is the only one that matches physical exposures between cameras, which makes the results comparable. The only issue they've had in the past is getting focus perfect but it's pretty easy to evaluate if they got it right for a given camera by looking at the base ISO shots. The only other variable is that the "raw" images are displayed as processed through ACR, which can vary between cameras based on Adobe's differing camera profiles. Fortunately the widget allows the raws to be downloaded so anyone can do their own comparison using their raw processor of choice.



Aug 18, 2017 at 02:11 PM
SoundHound
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


I also never had any confidence in DxO's sensor ratings. I bought the D5 (and previous models) instead of the Canon equivalent regardless of the DxO ratings. Until the advent of the A9 Sony did not have a low light, sports action camera useful for me.

My results are just that-mine. However, I do believe that the improvements, such as more mP, have had an impact first in the Nikon D series (12.1, 18 and 20.8 mP) and now in the A9. Ditto, the expanded area AF sensors-first a modest 30% for the D5 and then the huge A9 full frame festival.

As for the DxO T stop ratings, in comparision to other brands of lenses, I have to believe they are useful. I still have two D5 bodies as back up in case some warts develop on the A9 but I really don't want to set ME with an optical VF/chimp my LCD anymore.



Aug 18, 2017 at 05:17 PM
osv2
Offline
• • • •
[X]
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


ggreene wrote:
The D5 looks better to me at every ISO in that comparison. I never did trust DXO's sports value.


so use the bill claff tool, for checking pdr... the a9 dominates at lower iso ranges, by a stop in some places, and they are pretty even from iso2500 on:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9

i think that bill has stated that pdr is a pretty good indication of what the iso will look like?




Aug 19, 2017 at 07:06 PM
ggreene
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


That's great but the comparison was at high ISO and that is where the D5 looks better to me across the board. Which is why the DXO low light sports value is a joke.


Aug 19, 2017 at 09:27 PM
RobCD
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


ggreene wrote:
That's great but the comparison was at high ISO and that is where the D5 looks better to me across the board. Which is why the DXO low light sports value is a joke.


It seems like you are trusting your interpretation of the comparison tool and too easily dismissing two other sources that don't agree with your interpretation. Bill Claff's results also disagree with your above conclusion that the D5 looks better across the board at high ISO. From what I've seen with comparisons like the dpreview tool is that some people seem to look mostly at noise and not so much the detail. Fuji has always been the biggest beneficiary of this because you can always see less noise and at the same time if you look you can clearly less detail when compared to other cameras using the same base sensor. A lot of people see the less noise but miss the less detail. I really don't know which of these different sources is closer to being right but I think it's too easy to think that our interpretation of the dpr tool should be trusted more than Bill Claff or DXO for that matter. I'm not saying that I believe your opinion is wrong though, just that dpreview might not be the definitive source either.



Aug 19, 2017 at 10:36 PM
ggreene
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


Oh, I'm sure DPR has it's flaws but past experience with DXO's low light sports value tells me it's not a good metric for high ISO.


Aug 20, 2017 at 08:23 AM
bclaff_too
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


osv2 wrote:
so use the bill claff tool, for checking pdr... the a9 dominates at lower iso ranges, by a stop in some places, and they are pretty even from iso2500 on:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Sony%20ILCE-9

i think that bill has stated that pdr is a pretty good indication of what the iso will look like?


Yes, at the bottom of the interactive Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) chart at PhotonsToPhotos is a sort-able table with a Low Light ISO figure stated as ISO and as stops (EV).
Unlike the DxOMark Sports score this is based entirely on dynamic range.
Note that like PDR the Low Light ISO is on a different scale than the DxOMark Sports score.

If you're curious to dig deeper into the DxOMark Sports score then see the DxOMark Sports Score Audit.



Aug 20, 2017 at 09:44 AM
snapsy
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


RobCD wrote:
It seems like you are trusting your interpretation of the comparison tool and too easily dismissing two other sources that don't agree with your interpretation. Bill Claff's results also disagree with your above conclusion that the D5 looks better across the board at high ISO. From what I've seen with comparisons like the dpreview tool is that some people seem to look mostly at noise and not so much the detail. Fuji has always been the biggest beneficiary of this because you can always see less noise and at the same time if you look you can clearly less detail
...Show more

Few things to keep in mind. First, comparing detail is only significant if one camera is suspected of performing noise reduction in the raws. Otherwise detail is a fixed quantity that is a function of megapixels, presuming each system has capable lenses. The differences in detail for most comparisons comes down to focus differences.

Another important factor is that the extra detail from a higher MP camera vs lower MP camera in most High ISO comparisons should be discounted. This is because they are usually shot on a tripod, which is necessary for repeatability but also unfairly favors a higher-resolution body because it discounts the fact that the higher MP camera would require a faster shutter speed to achieve its detail advantage, and this in turn would result in more noise that would equalize its High ISO detail advantage.



Aug 20, 2017 at 09:52 AM
RobCD
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


snapsy wrote:
Few things to keep in mind. First, comparing detail is only significant if one camera is suspected of performing noise reduction in the raws. Otherwise detail is a fixed quantity that is a function of megapixels, presuming each system has capable lenses. The differences in detail for most comparisons comes down to focus differences.

Another important factor is that the extra detail from a higher MP camera vs lower MP camera in most High ISO comparisons should be discounted. This is because they are usually shot on a tripod, which is necessary for repeatability but also unfairly favors a higher-resolution body
...Show more

Your above comments only reinforce my belief that DXO and sources like Bill Claff are at least equally valid and probably more so. Again, that's not to say that the dpr tool isn't useful, I think it can be when used with the other sources of information and your own experience. But if you stop for a minute and consider the comments you make here about selectively paying attention to detail only when you suspect in camera noise reduction in raws and what you're asking viewers to do to interpret what they believe they are seeing, I don't see how that tool can be considered more valid than other sources. If anything it seems like it would be less useful if you're counting on each person to notice differences in detail and then figure out if NR in raws might or might not be there and if focus might or might not be there and then to ignore higher resolution. And on top of this you're comparing different lenses as well.



Aug 20, 2017 at 11:30 AM
BlueBomberTurbo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


Oh, DXO...

Never trust their "scores". In ISO, a "score" needs to literally double to represent just 1 stop of visible improvement. The real data is in their graphs:

https://image.ibb.co/gfQCP5/d5_vs.jpg


https://image.ibb.co/fEMrHQ/d5_vs_2.jpg


Vs. Bill Claff in DR, I'd say if you added the smoothing DXO uses, the results would be pretty similar.

https://image.ibb.co/hCocrk/d5_vs_3.jpg



Aug 20, 2017 at 11:37 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


BlueBomberTurbo wrote:

Oh, DXO...

Never trust their "scores". In ISO, a "score" needs to literally double to represent just 1 stop of visible improvement. The real data is in their graphs:

https://image.ibb.co/gfQCP5/d5_vs.jpg


https://image.ibb.co/fEMrHQ/d5_vs_2.jpg


Vs. Bill Claff in DR, I'd say if you added the smoothing DXO uses, the results would be pretty similar.

https://image.ibb.co/hCocrk/d5_vs_3.jpg


But to equalize for the same size output you need to use the print tab instead of the screen tab. When you do the A7rII will do better than those two charts.



Aug 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM
SoundHound
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony A9 and Nikon D5 Hi ISO-practical comparison.


I have seen most of those charts, however my comparo was to indicate that, even giving the nod to the D5's Hi ISO efficiency, the A9 (the way I use it) had advantages to either equalize or overcome the, effective, Hi ISO of the "Queen of the Night."

Therefore, the value of my observations was not the Hi ISO of the D5/A9 but the various A9 features that I thought others might overlook in selection of a Hi ISO action camera.



Aug 20, 2017 at 11:50 AM
1
       2       end




FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.