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Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?
  
 
Isaacheus
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


RustyBug wrote:
Full articulating screen options include:
6D2
A99 II

Parial articulating screen options include:
K-1

Tilt only screen options include multiple:
Sony
Nikon

For dedicated max DR for landscape camera, the Pentax K-1 has merit that often gets overlooked. Best I know, it has the most ISO invariant sensor out there, and they skip out on the AA filter totally, without "pre-cooking" files like Sony, either. How the K mount glass fares for astro ... idk, but there is the additional astro mode that the K-1 has in concert with it's pixel shift functionality.

Obviously the Nikon & Pentax options require a different consideration regarding glass in the F
...Show more

Yeah, I had a serious look at the k-1, basically everything I'm wanting in a camera (realistically) but without the ef mount for my existing lenses. The biggest issue I've found is finding decent lenses for the k mount; doesn't look like sigma or tamron are bringing out their art/sp series (except for the sigma 35mm art) to the mount, and I haven't been able to find decent lenses by Pentax for what I'm wanting/ in my budget (high quality fast primes and strong wide angle zooms) If it had been a shorter flange mirrorless that allowed for ef lens adapters, I think this would be a great choice
---------------------------------------------

TeamSpeed wrote:
Isaacheus, have you considered just adding a new APS-C to your collection for the DR and flip screen capability you want, along with DPAF for anything else you do? It would be inexpensive to do so, and there are some nice lenses that work for WA work on a crop body.

For example at ISO 100, the SL2 has almost a FULL STOP more DR than the 6D2 and slightly less than 1 stop from the 6D, sitting right in the middle of the gap between the 6D and 5D4. If you want a larger body, the 80D then, and
...Show more

I do really like the sl1/2 series (mum has an 100d/sl1), but I've struggled with the optical af, nearly every time I've used it, just seems a bit hit and miss? The touch screen is great, and I really like dpaf, but it gets awkward holding the camera out in front to get af all the time. The real hesitation I have though is that I want to improve iq, and I don't think I'd be happy with the drop in high iso performance with a crop sensor. And the budget doesn't cover two new bodies. The outer dial button failed recently on the 6d, so changing aperture is a hassle, so I can't rely on keeping that for high iso either

---------------------------------------------

AlexDROP wrote:
I almost forgot I gave an opinion in this thread and was surprised to find it refreshed with newer posts.
The funny side of the dilemma of Isaacheus is that I'm facing the same atm. For two months since 6DII announcement I've been reading reviews of cameras and lenses, downloading raw files from various cameras to evaluate alt systems and upgrading paths.

Here are my findings from a travel photographer's point if somebody is interested (architecture, landscapes, long exposures, nightscapes, a bit of reportage):

1) Nikon: D750, 810 and new 850 are great, no doubt. 16-35 in F mount has two shortcomings: weaker
...Show more

Yeah, this about sums up my take on the options; for me the 5dmk4 also has a few cons in the lack of flip/tilt screen, and for the cost, the 4k, card speed, fps etc should have been increased; it just seems like it's at the bottom of that class? not that I think it's a bad camera (quite the opposite), but its hard to justify spending that much to feel like I'm settling. It's basically the same cost for the a7r2 with adapter (I know there are compromises with this too), or going to Nikon, I could pick up a d750 and a few lenses for about the same cost, and start building things up there.

Still deciding at this stage, tried a sony a7r2 out at the shops, was really slow to write an uncompressed raw to the card, which would make timelapses quite difficult, so nothings perfect. If canon could cut the 5dmk4 price by 1000 or so, I'd feel that would be worth my money




Sep 29, 2017 at 05:29 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Are you shooting landscapes or high DR scenes at high ISO? That would change things a bit.


Sep 29, 2017 at 09:34 AM
Isaacheus
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


TeamSpeed wrote:
Are you shooting landscapes or high DR scenes at high ISO? That would change things a bit.


Yeah, almost exclusively at this stage; landscape and astro (wide-field)



Sep 29, 2017 at 09:58 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Aren't those usually shot at low ISO, like below ISO 400? I am not sure what you can use in the Canon camp to get better DR past ISO 1600/3200?

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Canon%20EOS%206D,Canon%20EOS%206D%20Mark%20II

The Sony A7R2 just edges these out at the higher ISO, but not enough to switch systems for.

If you shoot below ISO 400, then you have many options, including the SL2. Your concerns for IQ would generally be moot at these ISO levels, allowing you to concentrate solely on DR options. Any late model camera from Canon, APS-C or otherwise, do great at low ISOs these days for IQ.



Sep 29, 2017 at 02:10 PM
Isaacheus
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Just checking that I follow correctly : most cameras of the same sensor size seem to have comparable dr in the higher isos, which I use for astro (1600,3200 etc) but I'm wanting to stick with full-frame for the noise aspect.

Landscapes typically are at lower iso (100-400), where most of canon's offerings, with the exception of the 6dmk2 would be an improvement. I'm really wanting a tilt screen for the landscapes and astro, so while the 5dmk4 seems to be a good choice sensor wise, it'd get frustrating having the same issue I have with the 6d. I've only got L glass, would it be worth buying crop glass to get the same angles and stick with Canon? I feel that I'd be better to just switch for a system that covers more of my wants, if I'm going to be buying new lenses again.

At least, that's where I am with what I've found in reviews etc

TeamSpeed wrote:
Aren't those usually shot at low ISO, like below ISO 400? I am not sure what you can use in the Canon camp to get better DR past ISO 1600/3200?

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%201D%20X%20Mark%20II,Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Canon%20EOS%206D,Canon%20EOS%206D%20Mark%20II

The Sony A7R2 just edges these out at the higher ISO, but not enough to switch systems for.

If you shoot below ISO 400, then you have many options, including the SL2. Your concerns for IQ would generally be moot at these ISO levels, allowing you to concentrate solely on DR options. Any late model camera from Canon, APS-C or otherwise, do great at low ISOs these days for IQ.




Sep 29, 2017 at 08:45 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Isaacheus wrote:
Yeah, I had a serious look at the k-1, basically everything I'm wanting in a camera (realistically) but without the ef mount for my existing lenses. The biggest issue I've found is finding decent lenses for the k mount; doesn't look like sigma or tamron are bringing out their art/sp series (except for the sigma 35mm art) to the mount, and I haven't been able to find decent lenses by Pentax for what I'm wanting/ in my budget (high quality fast primes and strong wide angle zooms) If it had been a shorter flange mirrorless that allowed for ef lens
...Show more


Yup, that pretty much nails exactly what I assessed with the K-1 ... I want it with a different mount.
Even Zeiss isn't doing much in the K mount, either.



Sep 30, 2017 at 02:15 AM
Flowernut
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I'm curious why none of the canon posts mention the 5Ds R. Is it because of the 5D iv?


Sep 30, 2017 at 02:10 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I'm happily using a 5DsR for my landscape photography. Yes, Sony sensors have a bit more dynamic range, but that is virtually never an actual impediment to my landscape photography. (I use a Sony sensor camera for my street and travel photography, but more due to the other features of that camera rather than than sensor.)

I notice an odd situation regarding the comparisons between the fine Sony options and the fine Canon options. In general, from a Canon perspective, it often strikes me as a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" issue, wherein some folks unreasonably diminish the capability of the Canon system and unrealistically exaggerate the capabilities of the Sony system. (To be clear, both have their pluses and minuses — it is just that these are not regarded in an entirely rational manner.)

Let's take dynamic range. First the number of situations in which the dynamic range difference between, say, the 5DsR and the A7rii determines whether or not you can make an excellent exposure is quite small. There are basically three possibilities:

1. The subject is well within the dynamic range capabilities of both systems. This is, by a great margin, the largest percentage of your photographs with any modern digital camera.

2. The subject's dynamic range is within the capabilities of one system but outside that of the the other. This is, by far, the least likely of the three possibilities — perhaps, arguably, a one-stop difference— and here the actual difference is likely to be a marginal one of degree rather than a hard limit of "won't work." And, in many cases, a different exposure decision will make it work.

3. The subject's dynamic range is outside the capabilities of both systems.This is the second-largest category, though still not a large one, and includes those extreme situations in which you might have 20 stops of DR in the scene — say the sun itself is in the frame and important subjects are backlit and in the shadows.

Second, regarding the exaggeration of differences, quite often subjects that folks imagine to be beyond the dynamic range capability of their system actually are not. While the precise limits (to the extent that "precise" is even the right word here) of systems do differ, many folks simply don't know how to expose and post-process to get the maximum image data out of their files and into a print.

In that regard, I've become quite amazed by how much detail I can get from shadow areas in 5DsR exposures. It was not that many years ago that we often relied on exposure blending in very high dynamic range scenes. (Back then I occasionally had to blend as many as three exposures with some extreme scenes.) To the best of my recall, I have not had to resort to exposure blending for a single image since I started using the 5DsR. Habits die hard, and I still bracket for safety reasons, but I invariably find that I can select a single of the images in post and recover plenty of shadow detail to make an excellent print.

Shadows that like this...







Are great if you know that you can easily make them look like this (they are supposed to be shadows), and the overall image look like the example lower on the page:







Or, if you are really going nuts, you make them not look like shadows at all — if I actually did this, the small photo of the scene below would look technically awful, with pure white sky and badly blown out mountains.







These are 100% crops from this scene, exposed this way on purpose — the unadjusted raw file. (Regarding crops, at typical screen resolutions you are looking at what is equivalent to small sections from a print that would be many feet wide.) Here is what the unadjusted raw file looked like.







With the intention of ending up with something more like what I saw:







I recently shared an illustrated article (https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2017/09/20/what-you-get-is-not-what-you-see) explaining how this has changed how I expose — specifically regarding the landscape photography the OP asked about. Basically, faced with high dynamic range scenes I always opt to protect the highlights, even at the expense of getting a raw file in which the shadows look essentially black — because I know that I can get fine detail out of those shadows in post.

I have many other examples of this, too. (Please read those that I'm sharing with an open mind before you tell me I'm wrong, only shoot unchallenging scenes, don't care much about image quality, am a Canon a "fanboy," or the other usual stuff. None of that stuff is true.)

https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/07/19/the-canon-5ds-r-dynamic-range-examples

https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/08/17/a-photograph-exposed-technique-and-interpretation-in-post

In the second linked example, I intentionally exposed this way...







Knowing that it would allow me to get this in my print...







There are plenty of reasons to choose Canon, Nikon, Sony, or other brands, and I know excellent photographers who shoot with all of them — some of whom use more than one. But the constant search for magical solutions through brand-switching and buying gear often seems to encourage us to magnify differences and ignore the need to learn more and hone our technique. You'd almost think sometimes that the lure of the Shiny New Thing looms larger than the actual photography... ;-)

Dan

Edited on Sep 30, 2017 at 05:36 PM · View previous versions



Sep 30, 2017 at 03:24 PM
AlexDROP
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


gdanmitchell wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to choose Canon, Nikon, Sony, or other brands, and know excellent photographers who shoot with all of them — some of whom use more than one. But the constant search for magical solutions through brand-switching and buying gear often seems to encourage us to magnify differences and ignore the need to learn more and hone our technique. You'd almost think sometimes that the lure of the Shiny New Thing looms larger than the actual photography... ;-)


Thanks, Dan. You put it so well.
I've recently asked a question about 5D4 and 5DSR differences in terms of MP and DR in the neighbouring thread. And it looks like you've already gave the answer, he-he.

AlexDROP wrote:
Are DR / shadow recovery capabilities taken into serious consideration when you decide which one to pick? Is it a strong differentiator between these two models?

I'm curious about DR factor cuz when ppl say 5DS(R) is for landscapes they unintentionally stress on MP importance over DR. OTOH speaking of Canon and Nikon cameras ppl stress on DR importance especially for landscapes. So for landscaping what is more important: MP or DR, and is DR fair enough in Canon cameras?

Personally me I shoot landscapes with 6D and it is fair enough for my shooting style and technique (I do bracketing and
...Show more



Sep 30, 2017 at 04:16 PM
Isaacheus
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


@ gdanmitchell
The 5dsr is a camera I gave a very hard look at initially when looking at new options; and I'll admit the amount of mp available does go a fair way to helping with it's slightly weaker dr than say the 5dmk4, as more NR can be used without damaging the overall iq

The two reasons I haven't gone this route are the high iso noise patterns, which from the files I've seen, are a little less ideal for astro shooting than my current 6d and the fixed screen, the lack of tilting on the 5d series has made them quite a lot less appealing as this is one of the usability issues I have with the 6d.

Looks to be a great camera for landscapes otherwise (and I quite like the 5dmk3 focusing for wildlife, and I believe this is a step up again?), but I suspect it'll be a step back for one of the main shooting situations I have, astro, and will still have the same screen limitation I'm trying to remedy.



Oct 01, 2017 at 08:52 AM
 

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gdanmitchell
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Isaacheus wrote:
@ gdanmitchell
The 5dsr is a camera I gave a very hard look at initially when looking at new options; and I'll admit the amount of mp available does go a fair way to helping with it's slightly weaker dr than say the 5dmk4, as more NR can be used without damaging the overall iq

The two reasons I haven't gone this route are the high iso noise patterns, which from the files I've seen, are a little less ideal for astro shooting than my current 6d and the fixed screen, the lack of tilting on the 5d series has made them
...Show more

No one camera will be ideal for all things. Just considering Canon, while the 5DsR is arguably optimized for subjects such as landscape, the 5DIV is more optimized for wildlife and higher ISO photography.

Consequently, unless you are going to use multiple systems you need to consider compromises — either you optimize for one thing and accept slightly less performance for others, or you compromise for all things and get good enough (which can be quite good) performance for all. Some folks really frustrate/paralyze themselves by hoping to find the camera that is perfect for everything.

Let me take that wildlife issue, for example. I shoot wildlife with my 5DsR, mostly migratory birds, often in flight and frequently in poor light. It is absolutely certain that I would get higher frame rates with a different camera and better low light performance in marginal early/late light conditions. But I also move continuously between wildlife and landscape modes when photographing these subjects.

It turns out that I can actually be quite successful at wildlife photography with this landscape photography camera, mainly by honing my tracking and shooting skills and by learning to make optimal use of the significant capabilities of this camera.

There is sometimes what almost seems to be a sense that cameras are binary —for example, either a landscape photography camera or a wildlife photography camera. In truth, cameras in both categories can do very good work in both. While a 5DsR is optimal in terms of system resolution for tripod-based landscape photography, one can clearly produce some excellent big prints with photographs made competently with a 5DIV. The opposite is also true — while the 5DIV might be more optimized for certain kinds of wildlife photography, the 5DsR can also do very will with that subject.

Dan








Oct 01, 2017 at 04:09 PM
RobDickinson
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


gdanmitchell wrote:
No one camera will be ideal for all things. Just considering Canon, while the 5DsR is arguably optimized for subjects such as landscape, the 5DIV is more optimized for wildlife and higher ISO photography.


I would argue the 5ds/r are optimised for studio shooting over much else. The DR is poorer than the 5d4 and yes it has more resolution but unless you print huge 30mp is plenty (tbh the difference between 30 and 50 is nothing compared to stitching anyhow).



Oct 01, 2017 at 08:03 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I shoot my 5D4 at 50Mpx all the time!


50Mpx Version

Almost 100% crop of the 8688 pixel on the long side... Oh well it was worth trying the resize in DPP anyways.




Oct 01, 2017 at 10:05 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


RobDickinson wrote:
I would argue the 5ds/r are optimised for studio shooting over much else. The DR is poorer than the 5d4 and yes it has more resolution but unless you print huge 30mp is plenty (tbh the difference between 30 and 50 is nothing compared to stitching anyhow).


I don't have DR issues with the 5DsR. (I've shared several articles on this issue in the thread here, but I'll repost them below. I encourage you to take the time to actually look at them. I think you'll find them interesting.)

I do print quite large, frequently in the range of 30" on the long side and sometimes larger. I have sold/licensed images that have been reproduced at up to 30' (not 30") wide in commercial applications. (Those were stitched, but I'd rather avoid that in my typical photography.)

Certainly at 5DsR could be a fine tool for studio shooting, it is also aimed at and quite often chosen by landscape photographers.

This is not meant to knock the fine 5DIV, nor to say that it cannot also produce rather large prints with excellent quality. After all, many of us managed to do that with 12MP and then 21MP. Yet, we also moved on when tools that were more effective for our work became available — some to the 5DIV and some to the 5DsR and some to completely different tools.

Dan

Articles concerning some real world DR performance metrics with the 5DsR:

https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/08/17/a-photograph-exposed-technique-and-interpretation-in-post

https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/07/19/the-canon-5ds-r-dynamic-range-examples

https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2017/09/20/what-you-get-is-not-what-you-see

Bonus link: A fun 5DsR resolution example:

https://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/07/17/fun-with-the-canon-eos-5ds-r



Oct 01, 2017 at 10:44 PM
RobDickinson
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I've had the 5dsr several times I know how it shoots.

Plenty of resolution but I prefer the sony/a7r(2) files, they are more workable.



Oct 01, 2017 at 10:53 PM
RobDickinson
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?




Its better than some canons, worse than others, but still firmly in the old school camp.



Oct 01, 2017 at 11:00 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


^^^
Did you read my illustrated examples of 5DsR and dealing with real world DR stuff?

There is no question that the Sony sensors achieve higher DR scores than the 5DsR. The question is what difference it makes and in what circumstances. That is what I write about.

Take a look, if you have a moment. The links are higher up on this page.

Regarding...

RobDickinson wrote:
I've had the 5dsr several times I know how it shoots.

Plenty of resolution but I prefer the sony/a7r(2) files, they are more workable.


No problem with that. There are reasons for some photographers to prefer just about any brand and model for their work, and we find that different photographers prefer different systems for the same type of work. The value balance among the many important features of cameras is rather subjective, so it makes sense that we might come to different personal conclusions.

The odd thing to me is when folks who use a different system than the person with whom they are conversing start to insist that not only is their choice right for them, but that the other person's choice is wrong, often because that data prove that X is greater than Y. In fact, X may well be greater than Y. But A is sometimes less than B, and E equals E, and F is found on one, G on the other, and H on neither. Comparison are not one dimensional — and I suspect you understand this.

Or they seem almost entirely uninterested in actual photographic examples and case studies that call into question what they believe to be true. Rather than looking at these real world examples, they post more data and charts "proving" things that conflict with what we can see in photographs. That's quite frustrating.

Sometimes some go even further and suggest that the other person is not only wrong, but must also be wrong-headed in some way to come to such an objectively wrong conclusion. The stuff I hear includes that I don't care about image quality (I do), I'm ignorant (I'm not), I don't shoot in challenging conditions (I do), or that I'm willing to setting for inferior equipment (I'm not).

They just have a very hard time accepting that there can be more than one right answer to a question, and that there can be perfectly reasonable and even logical reasons for coming to a conclusion other than their own.

As I write regularly, there are smart, perceptive, talented, creative photographers producing outstanding photographic work of all types using equipment from Sony, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Fujifilm, Olympus, Hasselblad and a whole bunch of others, from film gear to smartphones. If one system were objectively superior in all important ways to the others, we would see that in photographs (we could look at them and say, "That is a Fujifilm photograph!") and photographers would flock to The Very Best System.

Somehow it doesn't work out that way in the real world.

YMMV. ;-)

- - -

I found your chart source: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Folks may want to read the explanation of these tests, including limitations of the used data sets.

To the extent that these data are useful, it is interesting to plug in a range of current cameras from high end crop sensor camera thought popular FF bodies and a couple of the newer miniMF bodies...

... and see how much they generally align (with a few outliers) along much the same general curve.


Edited on Oct 02, 2017 at 04:18 AM · View previous versions



Oct 02, 2017 at 03:58 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


RobDickinson wrote:
I've had the 5dsr several times I know how it shoots.

Plenty of resolution but I prefer the sony/a7r(2) files, they are more workable.


I agree. I shoot with 2 5DS bodies in the field and have often wished they had the Sony sensor. Would I always need and/or use the wider DR the Exmor sensor provides? No. (By the way, the difference in DR between the Sony & Canon 5DS sensors is more that “a bit” (pun intended) despite amusing contortions of Canon fanboys.) But more DR at the time of capture is always better than less. The 5DS is a superb body. However, the simple fact is that Sony leapfrogged over Canon in sensor technology and only recently is Canon playing catch up.




Oct 02, 2017 at 01:31 PM
Mikehit
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Rajan Parrikar wrote:
(By the way, the difference in DR between the Sony & Canon 5DS sensors is more that “a bit” (pun intended) despite amusing contortions of Canon fanboys.)



Why does anyone who disagrees have to be a 'fanboy'? This is becoming a quite pathetic way to stop further discussion (as in " you are clearly a blind fanboy so your pinion is not valid because you are so biased"). It may or may not be your intention but it has become so pervasive as to be the equivalent of stinking finger in the ears shouting "LA LA LA".

I agree with gdanmitchell's comments - the difference may be significant to some people in some situations, but (a) are applicable mainly at base ISO and (b) there are precious few occasions where the difference means getting the shot or not getting the shot, or bracketing and not bracketing. Even in my preferred genre of bird in flight, in bright sun the difference between glossy highlights on the top of the wing and detail in shadow under the wing is very often greater than even the Sony will permit. So buying decision comes down (as gdanmitchell says) to other factors.

A die-hard landscaper may well meet those situations more commonly than someone with wider variety of subjects, but in the grand scheme of things it does not mean they are not a minority.



Oct 02, 2017 at 04:16 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


At ISO 400 and after, the gap between Sony and the 5DSR narrows to under 1 stop. The 5D4, however, trades jab for jab with Sony at the low ISO.


Oct 02, 2017 at 04:33 PM
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