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Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?
  
 
Isaacheus
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Hi everyone,

Currently running with a 6d, but looking to upgrade as it's fairly old and I'm wanting better iq in a main camera.
I'll keep the 6d for timelapse with whatever option I go with, but I'm not seeing any easy options in the canon camp; I'm shooting landscape and astro typically, with my two biggest wants being a tilt/flip screen and better DR/noise control.

The 6d mk2 isn't looking like the answer I had hoped it would be with the low iso performance (i'm regularly finding low iso dr limiting on the current 6d and often unable to hdr with timelapse and longer exposures) but the tilt screen looks great. High iso on the 6d is pretty good, but if there are improvements from another camera, I'd be keen on that.

The 5dmk4 fits a number of things, for a substantial cost increase, but doesn't have a tilt screen.
The 5dsr isn't great for higher exposures from what I've seen, and the dr doesn't look like that much of a step from the 6d?

So, what do people use here, and where do you find limitations with the current set up? If anyone has used the wifi function on the 5dmk4 instead of a tilt screen, how do you find the battery life/usability?

I'm also looking at adapting lenses to something like a sony ar72 rather than going with canon, but changing systems is slightly off putting, and there are other drawbacks here, battery life and the star eater issue still being a problem etc. Are there any other benefits on the canon system that I'd miss if I shifted?



Aug 06, 2017 at 10:06 AM
AlexDROP
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Greetings.
Looks like 5D4 is the only option in EF mount camp as Sony a7x cameras have more limitations than you desired.
Framing a shot via a mobile device screen is less battery consuming than I expected. And with a hot shoe or a tripod holder it is convinient enough.

Coming Nikon D850 will fullfil your demands if changing systems is an option.



Aug 06, 2017 at 10:55 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I agree with Alex: with Canon bailing on putting their latest sensor tech in the 6D II, you'd might as well see how right the rumors are on the D850.


Aug 06, 2017 at 01:19 PM
garyvot
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


The best full frame cameras for landscape work having both high resolution and high dynamic range at low ISO are going to be from either Nikon or Sony.

Of the two, only the Sony allows you to use EF lenses. I think many Canon shooters have acquired A7R / A7R II cameras for just this reason.

In Canon, the 5D4 is pretty close to the Sony DR performance if 30Mp is satisfactory for what you shoot. The Nikon is better than both because it enjoys a base ISO advantage of 64.

There are reports that 6D Mark II shadow recovery is improved considerably by shooting at ISO 50 rather than 100. Usually that means compromising highlights, but some posts here have suggested that may not be the case for this body. I think we need to see some more specific testing.

There are, of course, several techniques for managing dynamic range beyond raw sensor trickery, including fill flash, graduated NDs, and HDR exposure stacking.



Aug 06, 2017 at 05:37 PM
AlexDROP
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


garyvot wrote:
There are reports that 6D Mark II shadow recovery is improved considerably by shooting at ISO 50 rather than 100. Usually that means compromising highlights, but some posts here have suggested that may not be the case for this body. I think we need to see some more specific testing.


I've performed a little test recently with my 6D (original) and now I can state two things:
1) shooting at ISO 50 kills highlights a bit (2/3 EV I suppose - so you should UNDERexpose for 2/3 EV for not exceeding ETTR and getting HL clipping) but at the same time ISO 50 makes deep shadows almost noiseless a-la Nikon style (no pattern noise, no blotches, etc.) It's a very convenient technique if you must bracket anyway.
2) in-camera long exposure NR filter ADDS noise drastically as well as canon famous pink tint in deep shadows. Keep LENR disabled forever!

I made my judgments on exposures of 3-10 sec. at ISO 50/100/800 after converting raws in ACR with +2EV/-100%HL/+100%SDW recovery settings.



Aug 06, 2017 at 07:09 PM
Isaacheus
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Thanks for the replies, and unfortunately they seem to confirm my suspicions.

I guess I'll have to hope Sony fixes the star problem with the next a7 camera if I want to keep using my ef lenses, otherwise Nikon is looking like the only real option. I'd expect to get a better response from the Nikon forum, but what is their 16-35mm f4 equivalent like?



Aug 06, 2017 at 08:31 PM
AlexDROP
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Nikon option of 16-35 is not very positively reviewed. It is more weak on the wide end than Canon as I may judge on samples over internet. Check samples on DPR taken with D810 (and 16-35) in Iceland and review of the lens on slrclub.com
Nikon 18-35/3,5-4,5 is praised more than 16-35 considering price factor.

Edited on Aug 07, 2017 at 10:16 AM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2017 at 08:43 PM
Jimi3
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I switched from the 5d2 to A7rii and am loving it. Started out with all canon lenses, and DR is amazing - I basically never have to shoot hdr anymore. Well, rarely. paired with light lenses it saves a ton of weight for hiking. Battery life is not great, but they're small and it's manageable to carry spares. If switching batteries is not an option during time lapses, you can run the camera off an external pack.

For Astro, the star eater issue is a problem, though it seems like it should be an easy firmware fix for Sony, so I'm hopeful that it will be addressed.



Aug 07, 2017 at 07:50 AM
Isaacheus
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


This option is appealing, as I have a few L and Art lenses, do you have any battery packs you recommend?
The star eater issue is the main reason I haven't looked too seriously at the sonys just yet, I had thought it was sorted with a recent update but it seems this isn't the case yet

The d850 looks good, will have to see what the full specs are. Not enjoying the idea of buying all my lenses again so much. Pity the Pentax K1 doesn't have art lens support as that's basically everything I'm wanting



Aug 07, 2017 at 08:29 AM
Mashuto
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I'm in the same boat. But I really like my canon glass (16-35 /f, 24-105 mkI, and 100-400 mkii) and I am not super keen on the idea of selling everything to switch to nikon (which would still im sure cost an extra few thousand dollars just to get back to parity, not to mention that the D810, and upcoming 850 are in another price class by themselves). And I not super thrilled to use an adapter. But as a hobbyist, I am not rushing out to spend the money anyways, just a shame there aren't a lot of better landscape options out there right now. The 5D4 seems to be better for DR, but you lose out on at least one very handy feature for landscapes, the screen, and for me personally its more camera than I want to spend on.

garyvot wrote:
There are reports that 6D Mark II shadow recovery is improved considerably by shooting at ISO 50 rather than 100. Usually that means compromising highlights, but some posts here have suggested that may not be the case for this body. I think we need to see some more specific testing.

There are, of course, several techniques for managing dynamic range beyond raw sensor trickery, including fill flash, graduated NDs, and HDR exposure stacking.


If that truly is the case then DR should actually be better and that would essentially mean ISO 50 is native on the 6DII, right? Because that would then essentially become base ISO with better DR and everything we have read or seen so far has been incorrect.

In the meantime, I bracket and blend on my 6D and it works well. But having the ability to get it in a single shot and not worry about the difficulties of bracketing or worry about movement in the frame would be nice. And nice enough that for everything else the 6DII has that I want, without the DR it has made my decision very difficult. So I will wait to see until some real verified tests start coming out.

---------------------------------------------

AlexDROP wrote:
I've performed a little test recently with my 6D (original) and now I can state two things:
1) shooting at ISO 50 kills highlights a bit (2/3 EV I suppose - so you should UNDERexpose for 2/3 EV for not exceeding ETTR and getting HL clipping) but at the same time ISO 50 makes deep shadows almost noiseless a-la Nikon style (no pattern noise, no blotches, etc.) It's a very convenient technique if you must bracket anyway.


I bracket almost all the time anyways, so if I have to bracket, I wouldnt mind having less to work with in the highlights some of my bracketed images if it meant I could push the shadows harder if need be. Does it really make that much of a difference in noise patterns (or lack thereof) on the 6D?



Aug 07, 2017 at 04:14 PM
 

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IndyFab
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


5Div now or the 5Dsr when the new sensor is added to that one, but that's when and if, seeing what they did to the 6DII


Aug 07, 2017 at 06:27 PM
rstoddard11
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


I like my 6D a lot and would be looking to update my glass with some high end primes before changing bodies. Currently if I was forced at gunpoint to buy a new body for landscape, I'd be seriously considering a Nikon D750.

I shoot a lot of low light landscape in the forest and am often above ISO 400-800 range so DR at lower ISO has not been an issue for me. I do wish the 6D were better on paper at ISO 100-400 but it hasn't affected my shooting and I rarely try to bump up shadows for shots in good light at lower ISO.

I have heard of this Sony star eater thing, but am wondering if anyone knows if that is an issue when shooting JPEG only or does it also apply to RAW?



Aug 07, 2017 at 06:54 PM
AlexDROP
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


rstoddard11 wrote:
I have heard of this Sony star eater thing, but am wondering if anyone knows if that is an issue when shooting JPEG only or does it also apply to RAW?


These concerns correspond mainly to raw shooting with Sony cameras. Yes, it applies to raws.



Aug 07, 2017 at 07:38 PM
AlexDROP
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Mashuto wrote:
If that truly is the case then DR should actually be better and that would essentially mean ISO 50 is native on the 6DII, right? Because that would then essentially become base ISO with better DR and everything we have read or seen so far has been incorrect.

True base ISO of 6DII (and any other Canon FF camera) is 100. Shooting ISO L (ISO 50 eqv.) clips highlights - so it is not base ISO.

Mashuto wrote:
I bracket almost all the time anyways, so if I have to bracket, I wouldnt mind having less to work with in the highlights some of my bracketed images if it meant I could push the shadows harder if need be. Does it really make that much of a difference in noise patterns (or lack thereof) on the 6D?

Yes, it makes noticeable difference. I tested ISO 50 in terms of long exposures with my x1000 ND filter to find out ways not to buy a new 13-stops ND filter
So using ISO L for this type of shooting and capturing multiple shots for blending in PS later can save me 120-150$. Shadows are much cleaner even after +2EV push.



Aug 07, 2017 at 07:44 PM
charlyw
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Mashuto wrote:
But having the ability to get it in a single shot and not worry about the difficulties of bracketing or worry about movement in the frame would be nice.


The question you need to answer is the number of times that you get away without bracketing if you got about 1 stop advantage - and if you can judge beforehand that bracketing isn't necessary anyway and if you know for sure that the underexposed areas of your photo (basically all of the important midtones) don't suffer too much anyway in willingly botching exposure to "save" areas of your photo that don't carry information anyway...



Aug 07, 2017 at 09:07 PM
therealthings
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


If your budget allows it. The p645z or fuji gfx will check all your boxes. In terms of iq and dynamic range. The gfx takes canon ts-e lenses with an adapter.


Aug 07, 2017 at 09:17 PM
Mashuto
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


AlexDROP wrote:
True base ISO of 6DII (and any other Canon FF camera) is 100. Shooting ISO L (ISO 50 eqv.) clips highlights - so it is not base ISO.

Yes, it makes noticeable difference. I tested ISO 50 in terms of long exposures with my x1000 ND filter to find out ways not to buy a new 13-stops ND filter
So using ISO L for this type of shooting and capturing multiple shots for blending in PS later can save me 120-150$. Shadows are much cleaner even after +2EV push.


I was responding specifically to the rumor that the 6DII could do ISO 50 essentially without any real change to the highlights. Of course in that case, base ISO would essentially be less, so I am dubious of that.

My other question though, is how is shooting ISO 50 any different than purposefully overexposing your shot by a stop or so? You lose the highlights and have cleaner shadows, the only difference is that it comes in essentially digitally reduced by a stop or so, right? Because its not truly a lower ISO, its just pushed digitally right?

---------------------------------------------

charlyw wrote:
The question you need to answer is the number of times that you get away without bracketing if you got about 1 stop advantage - and if you can judge beforehand that bracketing isn't necessary anyway and if you know for sure that the underexposed areas of your photo (basically all of the important midtones) don't suffer too much anyway in willingly botching exposure to "save" areas of your photo that don't carry information anyway...


Yes I know a lot of people make a bigger deal out of this DR thing than it probably needs to be. But that doesnt make it any less important. I dont always need that extra stop or two, but it would be one of those things that would be nice to have, and if I had the option of working off a single image, I would take it every time over the need to bracket. And if shadows pushed cleaner, then that would be great.



Aug 07, 2017 at 10:06 PM
Jimi3
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?




Isaacheus wrote:
This option is appealing, as I have a few L and Art lenses, do you have any battery packs you recommend?
The star eater issue is the main reason I haven't looked too seriously at the sonys just yet, I had thought it was sorted with a recent update but it seems this isn't the case yet

The d850 looks good, will have to see what the full specs are. Not enjoying the idea of buying all my lenses again so much. Pity the Pentax K1 doesn't have art lens support as that's basically everything I'm wanting


I haven't run my camera off a pack, so I can't make specific recommendations. But I believe there are two options - you can use a USB battery pack through the USB port, or you can get something that connects with a dummy battery if the USB connection is otherwise occupied. Here are some options :
http://briansmith.com/external-battery-sony-a7-a7r-a7s-ii/



Aug 08, 2017 at 01:08 AM
Jimi3
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Also, some of the guys in the Sony forum have recently started a change.org petition to Sony asking that they give us the option to turn off the star eater algorithm, and I'm hoping they'll listen. Who knows? They've actually responded in the recent past to user's requests regarding weird quirks such as most FE lenses focusing stopped down - they issued a firmware update fixing that problem a little while back.


Aug 08, 2017 at 01:12 AM
dhachey
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Landscape upgrade options from the 6d?


Isaacheus wrote:
Hi everyone,

Currently running with a 6d, but looking to upgrade as it's fairly old and I'm wanting better iq in a main camera.
I'll keep the 6d for timelapse with whatever option I go with, but I'm not seeing any easy options in the canon camp; I'm shooting landscape and astro typically, with my two biggest wants being a tilt/flip screen and better DR/noise control.

The 6d mk2 isn't looking like the answer I had hoped it would be with the low iso performance (i'm regularly finding low iso dr limiting on the current 6d and often unable to hdr with timelapse
...Show more

I faced the same dilemma not long ago. I went with the Sony A7R2 with a Metabones V5 adapter. The Sony 42 MP sensor is probably the best out there. I use my Canon EF 16-35mm F4L IS for landscapes, and kept the Canon gear for wildlife and nature work. At some point I plan to add a couple of native Sony lenses, like the new 12-24mm.




Aug 08, 2017 at 05:17 AM
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