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The hot debate, Fuji and Sony
  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.30 #1 · p.30 #1 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


I MP resolution terms, a 46MP full frame sensor is going to be capable of producing more of it than a 24MP 1.5x cropped sensor. Simply cannot argue that fact.

In some situations that difference is an important thing. For example, it is important to my tripod-based landscape photography. (I didn't choose Sony, but I do choose to use a 51MP full frame system for that.)

In other situations, it isn't an advantage or at least not enough of one to negate some of the advantages (at least in the eyes of some photographers) of the smaller, integrated Fujifilm system. While its resolution cannot equal that of a higher MP full frame system, it is quite good. (I've pointed out before — and shared a scan, though without any response — that I can consistently produce excellent 20" x 30' prints from the 24MP Fujifilm system.)

YMMV.



Sep 30, 2017 at 05:21 AM
mttran
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p.30 #2 · p.30 #2 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


It's all about choices but an open system is always a better choice to grow/tailor our specs whenever/whatever we need it. To me, there is nothing out there better than (F)E mount platform where the desire Sensor Size/DR/AE/AF/Video/Weight/etc.... can be perfectly & natively integrated to archive the best IQ performance for every available lenses from most MFGs. Mirrorless (sony) object oriented soft techs and multi-level hardware supports from E mount platform has changed my view about how camera and lenses supposed to work universal way these days. We, photographic community should thank for this possible choice and remember not to handcuff ourself to any manufacture classification direction like we had in the old days.


Sep 30, 2017 at 09:37 PM
chez
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p.30 #3 · p.30 #3 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Mttran, that is so true. I use my Sony outfit as a very light travel setup with a lens like the Sony 35 2.8 and then I can turn around and use my Canon mount Zeiss lenses for tripod based landscape photography. What I really enjoy is the ability to just take one system with me when traveling and be able to use that system as a light street camera one day and a high resolution, high quality landscape camera the next day. I don't need to bring along two different systems ( one for street and one for landscape ) or bring one and compromise either my street or landscape photography.

The ability to use so many different lenses on the Sony system should not be overlooked. It is one of the main strengths of the system IMHO.



Oct 01, 2017 at 01:58 PM
mttran
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p.30 #4 · p.30 #4 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Harry, we've been in this road before as many times in FM canon forum. Most of us know mirror less on common platform is the best approach to advance the current video camera technology. Manufacture and consumer will benefit from this unique engineering globalism movement as many of optical phenomenon constraints, incomparable mechanical constraints, unnecessary hardware-software implementation, SQA and maintenance cost will be finally removed for good. Just give some stubborn hardcore folks more times to understand & appreciate all the best science and economical stuffs that Sony and 3rd parties have done to/for photo-video-graphic community.

Maybe, we will hit the jack box when most MFGs are steering their machines toward the goal of fast, accurate, autonomous mirror less robotic movement to reduce 50% of the camera video cost for us as their consumer. Whoever will be the first on this movement will control this segment market for a long long time.



Oct 01, 2017 at 05:49 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.30 #5 · p.30 #5 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


^^^
There is an old expression concerning limited perspectives: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Do you realize that the "hot debate" of this thread is between two mirrorless camera companies," and not remotely about comparing mirrorless and DSLR systems?

As an enthusiastic user of both mirrorless and DSLR camera systems, it seems plain to me that if one's perspective is limited to only one of these — in this case, apparently mirrorless — every discussion topic starts to look like an opportunity to flog the mirrorless versus DSLR thing once again, even if the topic at hand is not remotely related to that issue.

If you want to "go there," I urge you to start a new thread on the "DSLR versus mirrorless" topic and have at it with others who want to join that debate — rather than hijacking this thread focusing on the relative merits of two wonderful and popular mirrorless systems.

Make sense?



Oct 01, 2017 at 08:02 PM
mttran
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p.30 #6 · p.30 #6 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


gdanmitchell wrote:
^^^
There is an old expression concerning limited perspectives: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Do you realize that the "hot debate" of this thread is between two mirrorless camera companies," and not remotely about comparing mirrorless and DSLR systems?

As an enthusiastic user of both mirrorless and DSLR camera systems, it seems plain to me that if one's perspective is limited to only one of these — in this case, apparently mirrorless — every discussion topic starts to look like an opportunity to flog the mirrorless versus DSLR thing once again, even if the topic at hand
...Show more

No, this is nonsense. Are we discussing video camera products or something else that I am not aware of. If we do then why differentiate the term in common output products. They all have the same application, haven't they. What we have here is a pure cost and performance discussion based on debatable multiple platforms in engineering application. Why create more bias when we already have plenty of them from you for years.



Oct 01, 2017 at 08:10 PM
philip_pj
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p.30 #7 · p.30 #7 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


'It is one of the main strengths of the system IMHO.'

Sony, from the start of a7 series, had several system level advantages that were not just 'unique in format' but positioned them for the eventual success risk takers deserve in open markets, a success they are just now seeing grow to full fruition.

1. EVF technology and its array of cutting edge focus aids resurrected a huge number of full-frame manual focus lenses, rehabilitating them to their full former splendor - a huge win for photographers if not for camera users. They suit people more interested in learning how the artistic tools of the past could describe the present and future in different and alluring ways, using often superior lenses.

2. The concomitant destruction of the 'lens ring fence' - 'handcuff yourself to any manufacture classification' - by which users are largely deprived of choice and forced to use OEM product which they must then fall in love (or at least tolerate) as part of any body/system preferences they may have - an onerous 'package deal'. Paradoxically, this move removed brand loyalty to a great extent because you now had a sensing platform (many referred to Sonys as digital backs) decoupled from the lens choice which is rightly the prerequisite of the artisan / practitioner, not the camera manufacturer.

It all appealed greatly to people who won't shill with their dollars for any particular lens maker. This 'lens universality' strengthened the consumer's hand greatly while degrading the relative power of makers whose business model imprisoned their users in a closed system of lens poverty - while enriching themselves.

Canon and Nikon have both passed 100 million units (lenses) in their respective systems.

The third unmatched attribute was size, weight, portability, pack size, carry on capability. A DSLR plus 24-70 zoom could be replaced by two bodies and 2-3 higher performance lenses with tremendous benefits for redundancy, quality of output, usability, versatility. And, vital to Sony's market aspirations, FUN. A move to Sony signaled a willingness to reengage as a photographer - with a greatly enhanced array of controls, aids, tools, techniques - and the sparkling array of lenses now within easy reach.

Add to that Sony's lead in electronics, commitment to sensor tech, willingness to produce various bodies for the range of photographic needs and sheer productivity, and it's easy to appreciate why long-established and savvy 3rd party lens makers are so willing to come on board the FE format. Soon, Zeiss, CV and Sigma will all be directing their new age optical expertise towards..well, us. Sony users will be the beneficiaries of the latest and greatest small-moderate, high utility lenses.

So, you now had the choice of any lens you want to use, on the dominant format they were designed and made for; cutting edge EVF aids; small form factor and the future orientation. No one else does it, they all stumble on one or more criteria. No one has yet even stood up as a serious competitor in this niche. These are the cornerstones their market success is founded upon.



Oct 01, 2017 at 09:20 PM
mttran
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p.30 #8 · p.30 #8 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


^^^ Sound like "uncommon children of common mother" theme. Sony, it's all good and work for me


Oct 01, 2017 at 10:38 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.30 #9 · p.30 #9 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


mattran, I'm going to be polite and try to reply to you objectively this time.

Please just take a look at the subject of the thread: "The hot debate, Fuji and Sony." Then you can also go back through the thread and see what it is about.

This thread has nothing to do with DSLRs. Nobody here is arguing with you or anyone else about DSLRs. Everyone here likes mirrorless cameras and thinks they are a good thing.

The entire thread is about comparing two camera systems that are both mirrorless. Both use Sony sensors. Each has pluses and minuses and each might be more or less desirable depending on your personal photographic perspectives. But, again, both are mirrorless and both rely on Sony sensors. There is nothing to argue about here in that regard.

We get it that you are very passionate about Sony, believe me. I'm not arguing with you about that. Over and over and over and over I have written that Sony makes fine cameras, and I have pointed out (in this thread!) that even the excellent Fujifilm mirrorless cameras use (mostly) Sony sensors.

You are arguing about something that no one else here is arguing about. It isn't related to the discussion in this thread.

We all like mirrorless cameras — that's what both the Fujifilm and Sony systems are.

We all understand that Sony makes fine sensors — Sony sensors are used in both the Sony and Fujifilm cameras that are the subject of this thread.

Are you understanding what I'm saying yet?

I suppose that you might consider steering this back to the relevant question of whether there are lens advantages on either platform. Or, stated more dispassionately, what might the pluses and minuses be for photographers regarding the two lens options?

Some feel that the ability to use a wide variety of third party lenses via adapters is a really great thing. Those who believe that will likely find that the greater adaptability of the Sony mirrorless system is very attractive. Others aren't interested in that and find that the excellent Fujifilm lenses are pretty much exactly what they way, and they'll may find Fujifilm's offerings more compelling.

And, as has been discussed in this thread at length, the question of the importance of the higher MP full frame sensor system is relevant. Here, again, there are fine reasons to conclude that the answer is "yes, I need a 46MP full frame sensor," or "no, the 24MP 1.5x cropped sensor is ideal for how I will use the camera." Among those coming to either conclusion are excellent photographers doing serious work.

Thanks.

Edited on Oct 02, 2017 at 05:29 PM · View previous versions



Oct 01, 2017 at 10:55 PM
Tony B
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p.30 #10 · p.30 #10 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


gdanmitchell wrote:
^^^
There is an old expression concerning limited perspectives: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Do you realize that the "hot debate" of this thread is between two mirrorless camera companies," and not remotely about comparing mirrorless and DSLR systems?

As an enthusiastic user of both mirrorless and DSLR camera systems, it seems plain to me that if one's perspective is limited to only one of these — in this case, apparently mirrorless — every discussion topic starts to look like an opportunity to flog the mirrorless versus DSLR thing once again, even if the topic at hand
...Show more

No hot debate for me unless one includes Leica & Olympus. Both of which I would choose before Sony. The sensors are another matter.



Oct 01, 2017 at 11:14 PM
 

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mttran
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p.30 #11 · p.30 #11 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


gdanmitchell wrote:
mattran, I'm going to be polite and try to reply to you objectively this time.

Please just take a look at the subject of the thread: "The hot debate, Fuji and Sony." Then you can also go back through the thread and see what it is about.

This thread has nothing to do with DSLRs. Nobody here is arguing with you or anyone else about DSLRs. Everyone here likes mirrorless cameras and thinks they are a good thing.

The entire thread is about comparing two camera systems that are both mirrorless. Both use Sony sensors. Each has pluses and minuses and each might
...Show more

Gdan, please read again my last couple posts. Did I mention anything the way you just wrote. Maybe you still live in those old days when we've had some system implementation disagreement. BTW, FF vs APS-C debate had been resolved by Nikon long ago, why bother to repeat.



Oct 01, 2017 at 11:23 PM
charles.K
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p.30 #12 · p.30 #12 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


No hot debate here either Just use the system you prefer.

I have used Agfa Optima, Nikkormat FTN, Olympus OM-2, Hasselblad and Nikon F1 with film, then Sony Mavica, Canon 350D, 550D, 10D, 20D, 5D, 5DII, Leica M9/M240/Monochrom, Olympus OMD, Sony RX1, RXr, RX100, A7r, A7s, A7II, A7rII, Fuji Xpro2, XT2, X100F and Nikon D810, D750 and now D850 alongside my Samsung S8+ when I need to capture a quick image.

I am brand and sensor size agnostic and really depends on your end needs as a photographer. Also it will depend very much if you interested in casual shoots, amateur, landscapes, traveling, people or a working professional. All of our interests are so diverse the discussions become trivial and our choices in our preferred system/s will also be diverse.



Oct 01, 2017 at 11:46 PM
chez
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p.30 #13 · p.30 #13 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Where DSLR's come into this discussion is when the mirrorless system is not capable of meeting all the photographer's shooting needs, like in Dan's case where the Fuji mirrorless system needs to be supplemented with a full frame DSLR system for fine landscape work. It's exactly this condition where I find the Sony mirrorless system leaves the Fuji behind...it does very well for fine detailed landscape work with the goal of large prints. As well the Sony system can be used very successfully as a light travel setup...thus really not requiring a DSLR system at all. That to me is the biggest advantage of the Sony mirrorless system...there are so many options available to the system that you can morph the system to your needs.


Oct 02, 2017 at 12:02 AM
ediblestarfish
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p.30 #14 · p.30 #14 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


I can't seem to find an option to add better ease of use into the Sony cameras. :P The controls and dials on my A7RII felt lackluster and sparse. The menu system was even worse than I expected. The IBIS was not as effective as I thought.

If not for being the sole option of FF mirorrless on the market I would never have considered Sony from the start. Likewise, Sony APS-C E mount I never felt was an option, and without any particular senor or lens advantage, felt it was a questionable choice, except for video.

I would love to have the super shortcut ability and IBIS that the EM-1 Mk.2 has. The video options and touch menus that the GH5 possess. The plethora of analog switches the X-T2 gets with small & well priced weathersealed lenses which have aperture rings...

...with a Sony FF sensor. But it's not an option.

So I had to make a decision for now. Not the future, or possible expansion--I really have no budget for that. For taking pictures the way I do, at this moment, right now, I have the X-T2, a few lenses, and some accessory gear. Nothing else.

If I need to change in the future I think it's fine, it will simply cost some money to trade in my gear for the next best thing that comes along. It is not a life long promise to go with any system.

But going through my recent uploads I don't think there's a particular advantage that going FF would really, noticeably improve. You can feel free to point out any pictures that would be much better if you like.



Oct 02, 2017 at 12:34 AM
Charlie N
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p.30 #15 · p.30 #15 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


gdanmitchell wrote:
I MP resolution terms, a 46MP full frame sensor is going to be capable of producing more of it than a 24MP 1.5x cropped sensor. Simply cannot argue that fact.

In some situations that difference is an important thing. For example, it is important to my tripod-based landscape photography. (I didn't choose Sony, but I do choose to use a 51MP full frame system for that.)

In other situations, it isn't an advantage or at least not enough of one to negate some of the advantages (at least in the eyes of some photographers) of the smaller, integrated Fujifilm system. While its
...Show more

if canon produced a small mirrorless with the 5Dsr sensor with matching lenses, you'de be all over and ditch the fuji.

To many of this forum, Sony IS that system. Considering you already listed your Fuji gear, the Equivalent is similar in price and even smaller, and of course that IQ..... No need to invest in two systems, single batter charger, true backup system. About all you can grasp at this point are subjective in nature.

fwiw, no one cared about the scan because it had no point of reference.



Oct 02, 2017 at 04:15 AM
leighton w
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p.30 #16 · p.30 #16 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


chez wrote:
Where DSLR's come into this discussion is when the mirrorless system is not capable of meeting all the photographer's shooting needs, like in Dan's case where the Fuji mirrorless system needs to be supplemented with a full frame DSLR system for fine landscape work. It's exactly this condition where I find the Sony mirrorless system leaves the Fuji behind...it does very well for fine detailed landscape work with the goal of large prints.


How does the Fuji GFX fit into this?



Oct 02, 2017 at 09:47 AM
chez
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p.30 #17 · p.30 #17 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


leighton w wrote:
How does the Fuji GFX fit into this?


Too big and bulky for travel photography. Still need two systems...even if both have the Fuji name on them. I do just fine with an A7R2 based system for both my travel and landscape photography with my backup camera either an A7R or A6000.



Oct 02, 2017 at 12:18 PM
frezeiss
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p.30 #18 · p.30 #18 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


leighton w wrote:
How does the Fuji GFX fit into this?


Actually, having Sony FF mirrorless and GFX at the same time makes sense. One has better speed, rounder lens lineup and portability while the GFX is for the specialized stuff. The GFX system will be more interesting is faster lenses are available on the system. Anyways the GFX is too pricey for most people.



Oct 02, 2017 at 12:40 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.30 #19 · p.30 #19 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


frezeiss wrote:
Actually, having Sony FF mirrorless and GFX at the same time makes sense. One has better speed, rounder lens lineup and portability while the GFX is for the specialized stuff. The GFX system will be more interesting is faster lenses are available on the system. Anyways the GFX is too pricey for most people.


The GFX actually has lenses with quite good shallow depth of field and light gathering capabilities and can be adapted for even more. The GFX also has the same advantage of Sony FF in that you can use a lot of non-native lenses with it. In fact, if you have Sony FF and the GFX, as I do, then you can even get lenses that work on both systems but have a different character and look on each. As an example the Leica R 80 f/1.4 is a very nice portrait lens on Sony FF, but is a superfast normal lens on the GFX (the equivalent of a 58 f/1.0) and it covers the GFX sensor beautifully. As far as the GFX being expensive, it is, but the price of the system varies dramatically depending on what lenses you buy for it. There are some amazing deals on lenses that can be adapted for the GFX.
For me the strength of the GFX is that I think it is the best portrait system available and if you want a robust and flexible system for portraits it can add to any system. If it were added to a Fuji APS-C kit, it would have the advantage of a similar approach to shooting and layout of the camera and menus. Many people would find that attractive and I think you could neatly divide the uses so that for work where you didn't need speed of shooting and didn't need to schlep the gear too far, then the GFX is the ticket and for everything else the APS-C system would be used.
The division for me with Sony FF really is the same. I use the GFX when I don't have to worry about schlepping the gear and the Sony FF when I do. I would appreciate the similar controls of a Fuji APS-C system, but I appreciate the sensor of the Sony more.



Oct 02, 2017 at 01:44 PM
mttran
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p.30 #20 · p.30 #20 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


philip_pj wrote:
'It is one of the main strengths of the system IMHO.'

Sony, from the start of a7 series, had several system level advantages that were not just 'unique in format' but positioned them for the eventual success risk takers deserve in open markets, a success they are just now seeing grow to full fruition.

1. EVF technology and its array of cutting edge focus aids resurrected a huge number of full-frame manual focus lenses, rehabilitating them to their full former splendor - a huge win for photographers if not for camera users. They suit people more interested in learning how the artistic
...Show more

+1, I am waiting for A7Riii/A9R and all the A9 retrofits except the crazy frame rate and this can last a decade long for my needs. All my canon L primes will be natively happy more than ever with this body.



Oct 02, 2017 at 02:47 PM
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