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The hot debate, Fuji and Sony
  
 
kesava
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


VeniceBeach wrote:
Anyone comparing the top Fuji glass to mediocre Sony glass based on the popular wall chart internet lens test sites rather than using the gear will have little to no real idea about quality or IQ.

High end Fuji glass is great and many Fuji lenses have a lovely rendering. Fuji also makes some amazing and light lenses such as the incredible 50/2 WR. And, when Fuji says a camera and lens are weather resistant they are far more likely to actually be so than Sony.

OTOH, I find high end Sony glass to be generally very strong and, often, a
...Show more

I agree, the best camera in the world, is the one you have with you. I just haven't found the right compromise with either system in lenses and features that makes me want to pick up one camera over the other yet. When I walk out of the door in the morning, I look at both, puzzled and torn.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:27 PM
kesava
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


notherenow wrote:
Your title is "The hot debate......"

If I added my 24 1.4 FD L to my A7s and used that as my third lens, the A7s and 55 1.8 and 85 1.8, with the adapter, I would be about 200g heavier than the XT-2 with 16 1.4, 35 1.4 and 56 1.2.

I would have a stop more isolation with the 24 1.4 than the 16 1.4, about a half a stop more isolation with the 55 1.8 against the 35 1.4 and the 85 1.8 would be about the same for isolation as the 56 1.2. If I chose a
...Show more

I'm not a working photographer anymore. I am sure if I was, I would jump on the A7 and have every lens I could afford. For right now, it's dad work and satisfying my own artistic ambitions. I don't think there'd be any question with the MC-11 adapter and EF lens lineup considering the access to L lenses. For people who pick up a camera to get put food on the table or earn income, there's little to no reason for them to choose the fuji.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:31 PM
kesava
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Mystik wrote:
Yeah. The flip-side is that Sony pretty much abandoned the casual shooters that initially bought into the a7 system because it was a smaller, cheaper system...both on the FF and aps-c side. Sony has set their sights on dethroning the DSLR giants and are pushing the envelope in terms of performance, but the cameras and lenses keep getting bigger and more expensive. I'm happy with it because Sony basically meets all of my needs, but I can see why others might feel alienated by Sony these days. The aps-c side of things with Sony is pretty dismal IMO. The bodies
...Show more

If I were shooting weddings still, I'd be 100% sony. Dark reception halls and dim churches! yay!!!
The original allure, as you pointed out, was that I wanted a small system with good lenses. Fuji and Sony both broke into the market around the same time. They both had and still have promise. The rich ecosystem of Canon and Nikon really spoiled me.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:42 PM
Charlie N
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
This is just personal preference, but the photos from the voigt have far more character, better bokeh, faster, the 1.8. It's sitting in the box right now ready to go back. It's really a shitty lens. I havent seen one good review of the lens. Even canon's 50mm was better than this by a country mile. That's my opinion YMMV.

The Fe 50 generally gets poor reviews on AF but optics. Mostly resolved with firmware updates.

I suggest you do an analysis on both lens since you have them, shoot into busy background and see which handles bokeh better. Check for spectacular highlights. Look at color neutrality. Measure exposure, is the 40 really faster? I know it has a wider aperture, but does it transmit the same amount of light? How does it render skin tones? Voigtlander definitely has a tint.

Canon's nifty fifty has awful bokeh as well as lower contrast.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:54 PM
justruss
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
What was the defining moment that made you choose?


Hmm, not sure there was a single defining moment, to be honest.

I LOVED my 5D2 (and 35L), and it served me incredibly well over the years on assignments around the globe. It was reliable, I enjoyed bringing it up to my eye to shoot, and it simply delivered. The two factors driving my desire to change were: i) normal upgrade cycle of seeking better files to work with, better tonality, better characteristics like noise contorl and color rendition, and ii) a desire for something smaller and lighter.

But at the time, Canon didn't have something that felt worth the outlay. The 5D3 didn't really change much in terms of IQ, and AF (the major improvement) wasn't really an issue for me.

So I decided to experiment with mirrorless. The X-E1 fit the bill for size perfectly (I loved the form factor). Resolution was a step down, but it punched above its weight for a lot of reportage styles. AF was good enough for many things, but a step down in many ways from the 5D2. Lenses were lovely. But it never replaced my 5D2 for my paid work, instead coming along as a backup/secondary, and filling a role as my primary personal setup. In some situations I preferred the IQ to the 5D2, but often the 5D2 was better for me. It really had a weakness for landscapes, and as a prime shooter I love extra resolution. The downside was also that I was supporting two systems-- batteries, color science, rendering, accessories. It's notable, however, that many images I shot with the Fuji made it into print-- including that cover. But I never felt comfortable picking it up as the primary without having my 5D2 in tow.

Then came the 5Ds(r), which almost kept me with Canon. I really didn't want to give up the size of the Fuji, but one of my major goals (resolution) was improved. But I hesitated because of the bulk/price/lack of major DR upgrades. I toyed with picking up an A7r, but its shortfalls were too major-- and I didn't want to step down from the functionality I'd come to rely on with Canon.

Then came the A7rII-- and it seemed to fit the bill with just the right compromises, and just the right advantages. It was smaller, less bulky, higher resolution, and represented a dramatic improvement to DR and tonal separation and color accuracy. I added this instead of a 5Ds(r), and used it on a few assignments first alongside my Canon kit, then on its own.

My conclusion to sell the Canon and Fuji kits were based on experience: I simply always chose to pick up the A7rII for paid AND personal work. So, after some months, I said to myself, "What's the point of letting those other systems sit on the shelf collecting dust and losing resale value. I just don't use them-- let's sell."

Sure, the A7rII has some issues (some things function more slowly, AF isn't quite at the speed of top DSLRs-- but for me (and my needs) it simply blows away the competition when it comes to the full package. Camera size comparisons don't do service to what it means to reduce bulk. Sure, it might not be thaaaaat much smaller in its largest dimensions compared to a DSLR with normal and longer lenses-- but carry and handle and pack and shoot the two kits for a couple weeks and I think you'll notice that bulk (volume + dimensions) makes a MAJOR difference.

In addition, the lens options where I live (primes between 18mm and 85mm) are incredible. The Batis 18mm is insanely good. The FE 28 is a killer budget option (not great, some issues, easily worth the price of admission-- a workhorse). And the Batis 85mm keeps delivering winners for me and my editors.

Bottom line: My work simply got better, the amount of effort that went into my work went down (thanks DR, resolution), and the act of shooting, once I got used to and customized it-- surpassed any previous shooting experience for me. The camera disappears into the background more than Canon ever did. Fuji never did... (fun, exciting) handling of Fuji stole the spotlight from the actual transparency of shooting, for me.

I'd love double the resolution, faster AF, a more intuitive menu system, and a couple ergonomic tweaks (heavier dials, slightly re-jiggered button placement). But in the nearly 2 years I've owned this camera it's only grown on me. That's a new experience. Usually my excitement peaks after 6 months to a year. Not this time... it's still peaking.



Edited on Jul 26, 2017 at 12:57 PM · View previous versions



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:54 PM
Mystik
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
If I were shooting weddings still, I'd be 100% sony. Dark reception halls and dim churches! yay!!!
The original allure, as you pointed out, was that I wanted a small system with good lenses. Fuji and Sony both broke into the market around the same time. They both had and still have promise. The rich ecosystem of Canon and Nikon really spoiled me.


There's a window of opportunity in the mirrorless realm that Canikon has been neglecting....and the mirrorless space can be segmented into two broad categories.

-small/affordable
-leveraging the performance advantages of mirrorless cameras + top quality sensors

Fuji claimed the first segment, Sony claimed the latter.

The ecosystem of Canikon's DSLR offerings don't necessarily translate to the mirrorless space.....particularly since adapted DSLR lenses can be adapted to any system. You need solid native lens offerings to be successful here....and Sony/Fuji have built significant leads in their respective spaces.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:55 PM
kesava
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Mystik wrote:
There's a window of opportunity in the mirrorless realm that Canikon has been neglecting....and the mirrorless space can be segmented into two broad categories.

-small/affordable
-leveraging the performance advantages of mirrorless cameras + top quality sensors

Fuji claimed the first segment, Sony claimed the latter.

The ecosystem of Canikon's DSLR offerings don't necessarily translate to the mirrorless space.....particularly since adapted DSLR lenses can be adapted to any system. You need solid native lens offerings to be successful here....and Sony/Fuji have built significant leads in their respective spaces.


Very True!



Jul 26, 2017 at 01:08 PM
drewmey
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Mystik wrote:
the mirrorless space can be segmented into two broad categories.

-small/affordable
-leveraging the performance advantages of mirrorless cameras + top quality sensors

Fuji claimed the first segment, Sony claimed the latter.


This is a perfect description. I don't think there are many (sane) people arguing that the Fuji system has superior quality or that it offers more features. The reason I ended up going with the Fuji system was simply by evaluating my needs (separating them from my desires) and then comparing them to the options.

Because I considered both and still chose Fuji, I think it makes perfect sense to compare these two. It is plausible that one would pick either of the two systems in a given scenario. There is no true "best".

After selling my Canon equipment, I decided on a budget just under $3k USD. This immediately put the a7Rii out of the question. When stepping down to the a7ii, I was seeing no resolution advantage of going FF Sony over the Fuji system. After thinking about my photographic interests, I decided that depth of field wasn't really that big of a deal to me. I also never shoot concert, event or any high ISO scenarios. With those purely personal items in mind, the playing field somewhat levels, as each system still has minor advantages over the other.

For some, size is of the utmost importance. For others cost to performance ratios are the most importance. Overall image quality is most important for many on gear forums but we can't forget that no one person's needs exactly match another's.

EDIT: For reference, I was able to obtain a Fuji X-T2, Power Grip, 10-24 f4, 23mm f2, 35mm f2 and 50mm f2 for $2,700 by purchasing some used items here on FM. To put that into perspective, that is less than a new a7rii body only! If I had more money (or could justify spending it let's say), I probably would have gone with Sony FF.


Edited on Jul 26, 2017 at 02:35 PM · View previous versions



Jul 26, 2017 at 01:27 PM
mttran
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Mystik wrote:
There's a window of opportunity in the mirrorless realm that Canikon has been neglecting....and the mirrorless space can be segmented into two broad categories.

-small/affordable
-leveraging the performance advantages of mirrorless cameras + top quality sensors

Fuji claimed the first segment, Sony claimed the latter.

The ecosystem of Canikon's DSLR offerings don't necessarily translate to the mirrorless space.....particularly since adapted DSLR lenses can be adapted to any system. You need solid native lens offerings to be successful here....and Sony/Fuji have built significant leads in their respective spaces.


+1, dslr system is dying. Its mirror AF/AE platforms are unreliable. dslr build and maintenance cost do not add up for both consumer and manufacture in the long run. Canikon is in trouble for this transition if they don't act soon.



Jul 26, 2017 at 02:22 PM
GMPhotography
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony



Hobbyists needs are far different than any Pro type work. Which gives you many more options to consider but also can drive you crazy on the amount of choices too. Fuji does a great job on there gear and with regular updates to there systems makes life even better. They have great glass and I know many Pros that have them as there sidekick cameras. Both of my assistants have them and main system for one is Sony and the other Canon. I said this many times I envy the hobbyists as you get options that I may not as a working Pro. Lot to be said about that
drewmey wrote:
This is a perfect description. I don't think there are many (sane) people arguing that the Fuji system has superior quality or that it offers more features. The reason I ended up going with the Fuji system was simply by evaluating my needs (separating them from my desires) and then comparing them to the options.

Because I considered both and still chose Fuji, I think it makes perfect sense to compare these two. It is plausible that one would pick either of the two systems in a given scenario. There is no true "best".

After selling my Canon equipment, I decided
...Show more



Jul 26, 2017 at 02:33 PM
 

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Gunzorro
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


I'm still straddling three fences: Sony FF, Canon FF and Nikon FF. The weakest from a system perspective is the Nikon D800e with little option to hoist Alt lenses and certainly no Canon FD or EF lenses. BUT, the Nikon imaging is amazing and works excellently with certain Nikon and Zeiss lenses (180/2.8 ED AIS comes to mind).

The Canon 5DsR is still an amazing beast of an image maker at 51MP. And Canon has many of my favorite lenses not found by other makers and incredible relatively inexpensive lenses such as 35/2 IS.

The Sony is most versatile and nimble for physical size vs IQ. Several features like IBIS for all lenses, magnified manual focus, and adaptability to almost all previous SLR and DSLR lenses makes it an amazing package. The a7R and a7R2 sensors are pretty impressive.

A crop sensor line or specific camera doesn't even tick my first most essential box: to attain FF or larger sensor size. So, everything from Fuji except their new (expensive!) medium format offering is out. And that comes from a Fuji fan from the large format days.


The main strengths of the Sony a7 system that Fuji APS-C can't compete with:

Adaptability of Canon EF mount lenses via electronic adapter
IBIS
Magnified EVF for manual lens focusing
36+MP
FF sensor

For me, the Fuji doesn't reach the basic bar of FF, so all else is moot. If I wanted a non-DSLR APS-C at this point, it would be a Sony 6300/6500 to take advantage of my Loxia and other Sony-mount lenses.

A better comparison for me would be between the a7R2 and the Fuji and Pentax MF models, but there price is the winner for the Sony (and
Canon 5DsR).



Jul 26, 2017 at 02:36 PM
drewmey
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Gunzorro wrote:
A crop sensor line or specific camera doesn't even tick my first most essential box: to attain FF or larger sensor size.


Not trying to be mean, but I feel this comes across as a little bit of an ignorant statement (and I have read many of your posts and don't consider you an ignorant person).

Sensor size should not be a "tick box". Maybe depth of field is, or SNR of the sensor or many other qualities that lead you to FF over something smaller. But choosing FF simply BECAUSE it is called FF sounds a little elitist and misinformed.



Jul 26, 2017 at 02:49 PM
GMPhotography
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


OT just a piece of advice I taught many workshops both Medium Format and smaller format and best advice I can give us get to one system know it extremely well. I be seen more people trying to juggle different systems in the field and struggle badly with constantly trying to play gear games instead of shooting the moment at hand. You have to get to a point where everything is simple and you don't have to think tech and gear but just concentrate on the shot. okay off the motivational talk but make life easy folks. Get a system and make it work for you not the other way around


Jul 26, 2017 at 02:50 PM
GMPhotography
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Damn iPhone can't spell worth shit


Jul 26, 2017 at 02:51 PM
drewmey
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Gunzorro wrote:
A better comparison for me would be between the a7R2 and the Fuji and Pentax MF models, but there price is the winner for the Sony (and
Canon 5DsR).


With your previous statements about crop sensor's, why would we consider full frame? Sony FF doesn't even hit the most essential tick box of MF. Measly FF sensor users... Only joking but you should get the point.



Jul 26, 2017 at 02:51 PM
farfisa
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


This was a hotter debate than I thought it would be.


Jul 26, 2017 at 03:51 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
No, I think people mostly cross shop these two cameras systems. I don't believe sensor size has a lot to do with it. Resolution stopped mattering for most practical uses 10 mega pixels ago. I sold my canon system to get a small capable system. When the A7 came along, we hoped that small beautiful lenses would follow from. But instead they came out with awesome lenses that were huge and expensive.


I didn't mean to say that comparing entirely different camera formats was irrelevant. I just think that for the sake of consistency, it may be a better idea to compare similar systems. There are many applications that benefit from full frame, others APS-C or different formats. It really depends on your needs as a photographer.

For example: when shooting wildlife or birds and limited by distance, a crop sensor (with more pixels) could be a better option than bigger sensors. It's a trade off that sometimes makes sense, gaining with more detail in exchange for some SNR.
For landscapes, better SNR is important for the shadows and in many cases, choosing full frame or even MF could be a better choice for this application.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no right or wrong camera. I use them all depending on what I'm shooting.

Having said that, It's amazing how much APS-C sensors have improved. Basically there are very small trade-offs in dynamic range and SNR. Noise levels are only a bit more than a stop behind full frame. Some brands are better than others but you get my point.

Best,
Fred



Jul 26, 2017 at 03:57 PM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Points taken! And well played, my friend!

I apologize if I come across as elitist. I guess I am elitist when it comes to my imaging ideals and how to best attain them within my budget. Everyone needs to draw their own line in the sand (or not!).

I would surely change my tune if I ran into an affordable APS-C sensor with great IQ, say something like 50MP with terrific DR and lens support. Still, I would be up against carting around these bulky lenses designed for FF that I've accumulated, like the TS-E which could never give me the AOV I'd like to enjoy at the wide end, such as from 17 TS-E. Until that day, I rule out the smaller sensor as a solution for me, although it might work well with appropriate lenses as a personal travel kit for me.

I have been seeing some great images on the Sony APS-C thread, so who knows? Maybe I'll cave in one of these days! (Haven't had APS-C since Canon 60D or Nikon D7000, but still love my little Canon G1X.)

I think it's my keyboard making me seem snooty and elitist! A clever worker always keeps an abundance of tools around to blame in time of need.

drewmey wrote:
With your previous statements about crop sensor's, why would we consider full frame? Sony FF doesn't even hit the most essential tick box of MF. Measly FF sensor users... Only joking but you should get the point.




Jul 26, 2017 at 04:00 PM
Mathieu18
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


GMPhotography wrote:
Damn iPhone can't spell worth shit


You need a new system Guy!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.



Jul 26, 2017 at 04:02 PM
kesava
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Gunzorro wrote:
I'm still straddling three fences: Sony FF, Canon FF and Nikon FF. The weakest from a system perspective is the Nikon D800e with little option to hoist Alt lenses and certainly no Canon FD or EF lenses. BUT, the Nikon imaging is amazing and works excellently with certain Nikon and Zeiss lenses (180/2.8 ED AIS comes to mind).

The Canon 5DsR is still an amazing beast of an image maker at 51MP. And Canon has many of my favorite lenses not found by other makers and incredible relatively inexpensive lenses such as 35/2 IS.

The Sony is most versatile and
...Show more

That 58mm 1.4 for Nikon is beast. But I could never get used to their controls. That would make a hard decision.
What does the extra MP afford you and what situations would you use them for?
I don't see this as a better or a non comparison field when someone doesn't need the the system for work. And even then, it's a convenience thing. I did decent work with a Canon 10D and I bet you could do better than me. I've come to the realization that for me, FF vs APC doesn't matter as much as comfort and fit. With all of the technology packed into these modern cameras... (keep in mind that the professional level camera 10 years ago was 8fps, and like 12mp, and was huge... Canon 1D)... the photo is the photo. I don't disagree that the Sony system is superior in many ways.
I snuck into a cross burning in Lafayette TN for some PJ work I was doing. All I had was a 80-200 2.8 on a 20D and boy did I have to crop that crap down because I wasnt getting any closer, but till this day, is one of my fav PJ shots. It would have been even easier if I had the MP of the A7R2 and I could have stayed further away. But I still got the shot. My contention is that while Sony has the great glass, it's expensive and bulky. With adapters and witchcraft, EF lenses are as fast on the A7 as they are on the Canon bodies... But at that point... Does the size and convenience of mirrorless become less of an issue? And I argue this because mirrorless was marketed as a smaller, compact alternative to large bulky bodies.




Jul 26, 2017 at 04:05 PM
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