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The hot debate, Fuji and Sony
  
 
kesava
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Mystik wrote:
I shoot at high ISO a lot. End of discussion for me.


Concerts? What ISO? For work or recreation? Do you print them or is it for web use?
Really curious.



Jul 26, 2017 at 04:17 AM
notherenow
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
I introduced my observations. Other's chose to debate it. I purposefully left out sensor size and ISO rating because EVERY other comparison has it. It's been beleaguered and in my opinion, not a reason most people need a camera.
You're absolutely right, those lens equivalents are so similar and that's the problem. That's the smallest glass will get for the A7 at that aperture. but that's also the fastest the glass can be for Fuji and you can't get any more isolation than that. However, you can adapt a 58mm 1.2 rokkor for the sony and BOOM magic... but now
...Show more

Your title is "The hot debate......"

If I added my 24 1.4 FD L to my A7s and used that as my third lens, the A7s and 55 1.8 and 85 1.8, with the adapter, I would be about 200g heavier than the XT-2 with 16 1.4, 35 1.4 and 56 1.2.

I would have a stop more isolation with the 24 1.4 than the 16 1.4, about a half a stop more isolation with the 55 1.8 against the 35 1.4 and the 85 1.8 would be about the same for isolation as the 56 1.2. If I chose a lighter lens for my 24mm then I could easily have less weight.

And of course with the Sony's there are dual sensor modes as well.


The first generation A7 series cameras are also smaller in two dimensions than the XT-2.

I love using my 85 1.2 on my Sony (and also on APSC and M43), likewise I loved using my FD L 50 1.2 on lots of cameras and my Canon EF 100 f2 on lots of systems (fast AF on M43 for a 200mm FF angle of view). Those lenses are now not going to be used so often (on my Sony) due to how good the 55 and 85 Sony lenses are.

See you can pick and choose with anything.

My smallest lens that I can fit on my A7s would actually still be smaller than the XT-2 without any lens in two dimensions and weigh around 30gms more. Not something I would want to use but I CAN do it.

I also shoot a LOT at high ISOs including concerts and am often at 25600 and above.

The beauty of the A7s is I don't HAVE to use fast lenses but can use whatever lenses I want, fast and slow or stop down when I want. My favourite lens for that is the large and heavy Canon 17 f4 L TS-E.


Edited on Jul 26, 2017 at 04:45 AM · View previous versions



Jul 26, 2017 at 04:35 AM
Charlie N
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
My voigtlander is my fastest and smallest lens for FF. Theres no reason we couldn't have gotten a small quality 35/2 or they could have engineered their 50mm 1.8 better cause its shit


you really think voigtlander outclasses the cheapo 50?

no way does it outresolve the 50

50 gives much cleaner bokeh

sharpness probably a wash wide open, 50 stronger stopped down.

50 likely has a better T stop rating. The T stop value of the voigtlander wasnt very good from what I recall.

While the 50 is bulkier, it's actually lighter than the 40.

40's vignetting is too much wide open, borderline unusable.

40's sunstars are perfect

When it comes to fuji compared to sony,
imatest scores show the 50 on FF is stronger than the XF 35 f1.4, and the 55 in another league compared to both.

fuji's 10-24 only 100g lighter than sony's 16-35, and equivalent to a stop lower total light output. Sony imatest scores much higher.

fuji 16-55 f2.8 vs sony 24-70 f4, while most of sony folks consider the sony a dog, it's still scores better than the fuji, any focal length and comparable aperture. it also weighs LESS by 200g

fuji 1-55 f2.8-4 vs sony 28-70 f3.5-5.6, again, sony's bottom of the barrel lens, stronger than the fuji based on imatest. Sony is only a little larger and a little lighter, fairly comparable size.

two lenses that dont truly have comparable equivalents, the XF 18 f2 and FE 35 f2.8. similar size, sony the better optic by far.

XF 16 f1.4 compared to the batis 25 f2.... Batis much better optic

XF 56 f1.2 compared to FE 85 f1.8..... you should know the pattern by now....

those are about as apples to apples as it gets, and the sony's on FF sensor simply outclass fuji.

once you start comparing "Big" sony lenses, you're no longer comparing apples anymore, they simply cannot be matched by any fuji offering.



Jul 26, 2017 at 04:41 AM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


What is this? Troll-feeding season?


Jul 26, 2017 at 04:46 AM
justruss
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


BrandonSi wrote:
I did the same thing, though I gave Fuji a shot. I liked my XT-1 and the glass was good, but couldn't get used to APSC. Went to Sony after about 4 months of Fuji, and haven't looked back.. that was ~3 years ago.


Similar story:

5D2 > added Fuji XE-1 > added A7rII > sold 5D2/X-E1.

The whole process lasted about 18months, with ~6 months of overlap between all three cameras being used side-by-side (and countless in-print publications with all three cameras, including a glossy mag cover for the Fuji).

There was no comparison in the end-- for me. The A7rII is something I still use and marvel at.



Jul 26, 2017 at 05:03 AM
karlkrum
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


you can't really compare crop to FF, you should compare to the a6500. Sony has next level auto focus, things like eye tracking, facial recognition, cutting edge sensor technology, IBIS, etc.


Jul 26, 2017 at 05:13 AM
psy501
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


..maybe thats just me, but i very much prefer the ergonomy of the fujis..(ok, i prefer the looks also, but thats secondary)..

..that said i own a a7r and a7rII and love them since i jumped on sony in 2013..

..in my dreams d have the sony technics wrapped in a fuji ergonomical camera..

..never gonna happen, so i stick with sony as the output is really really on top..



Jul 26, 2017 at 06:33 AM
VeniceBeach
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Anyone comparing the top Fuji glass to mediocre Sony glass based on the popular wall chart internet lens test sites rather than using the gear will have little to no real idea about quality or IQ.

High end Fuji glass is great and many Fuji lenses have a lovely rendering. Fuji also makes some amazing and light lenses such as the incredible 50/2 WR. And, when Fuji says a camera and lens are weather resistant they are far more likely to actually be so than Sony.

OTOH, I find high end Sony glass to be generally very strong and, often, a good reason to use Sony cameras in and of themselves.

As I said, I sold my Fuji gear. Kept my A9 and Sony glass. And often shoot now with a GH5 and some sweet Pana/Leica DG glass.

Best IQ? . Which camera is in my hand?

-Bill



Jul 26, 2017 at 08:53 AM
Mystik
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


kesava wrote:
Concerts? What ISO? For work or recreation? Do you print them or is it for web use?
Really curious.


Weddings/events. I also shoot a lot of posed portraiture and I like the aesthetic of fast apertures on FF sensors



Jul 26, 2017 at 10:10 AM
GMPhotography
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Im just a Full Frame guy so its all Sony and i need Mpx for a lot of work. I had a Fuji and liked it a lot but I had this very bad pattern effect going from the sensor. Long time ago though. They make nice gear just not for me being a working Pro.

I won't argue points for either of them its a matter of preferences.



Jul 26, 2017 at 10:34 AM
 

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sebbe
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Dear kesava

It's true most people would not recognize the difference of sensorsize within their personal photography. But this does not mean it can be ignored in a comparison.

A bigger sensor comes with the disatvantages of a higher weight, bigger size and more money. On your comparison list this has influence on 3 of 6 points ("size", "lenses", "value"). The points "AF" and "features" are indirectly influenced.

Therefore one point will be left for a fair comparison regardless of the sensorsize. It's "controls". Talk about that and no one will disturb your thread with the issue "sensorsize".





Jul 26, 2017 at 11:12 AM
kesava
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Dont be that guy. Either contribute or move on.


Jul 26, 2017 at 12:04 PM
TheEmrys
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Not sure why you think 56/1.2 = 85/2.1 on a ff body. Its an 85/1.7. Half stops are 1, 1.2, 1.4, 1.7, 2..... So the one stop difference takes us to f/1.7.

And an 85/1.7 sure can get just one eye in focus. As can my 56/1.2.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:04 PM
drewmey
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


karlkrum wrote:
you can't really compare crop to FF, you should compare to the a6500. Sony has next level auto focus, things like eye tracking, facial recognition, cutting edge sensor technology, IBIS, etc.


There's no rules in this stuff. You can and should compare anything to anything. Compare a point and shoot to medium format for all I care. If you fail to compare things like this, many many many many people will end up with a system they don't need.

We're on a gear forum, so lots of people want and generally utilize having a full frame. But depth of field and high ISO aside, APS-C works for most all people. Few people print large or take advantage of FF outside of depth of field and high ISO.

Why should all those people who don't need it waste money and use their gear less because it is larger and "annoying" to them? (not the case for me, but I hear it)



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:08 PM
kesava
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


Charlie N wrote:
you really think voigtlander outclasses the cheapo 50?

no way does it outresolve the 50

50 gives much cleaner bokeh

sharpness probably a wash wide open, 50 stronger stopped down.

50 likely has a better T stop rating. The T stop value of the voigtlander wasnt very good from what I recall.

While the 50 is bulkier, it's actually lighter than the 40.

40's vignetting is too much wide open, borderline unusable.

40's sunstars are perfect

When it comes to fuji compared to sony,
imatest scores show the 50 on FF is stronger than the XF 35 f1.4, and the 55 in another league compared to both.

fuji's
...Show more

This is just personal preference, but the photos from the voigt have far more character, better bokeh, faster, the 1.8. It's sitting in the box right now ready to go back. It's really a shitty lens. I havent seen one good review of the lens. Even canon's 50mm was better than this by a country mile. That's my opinion YMMV.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:08 PM
kesava
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


TheEmrys wrote:
Not sure why you think 56/1.2 = 85/2.1 on a ff body. Its an 85/1.7. Half stops are 1, 1.2, 1.4, 1.7, 2..... So the one stop difference takes us to f/1.7.

And an 85/1.7 sure can get just one eye in focus. As can my 56/1.2.

You're right. Bad calculation on my end. But I was being sarcastic. Not all fast lenses are the best lenses and not all of the best lenses are fast lenses.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:14 PM
kesava
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


GMPhotography wrote:
Im just a Full Frame guy so its all Sony and i need Mpx for a lot of work. I had a Fuji and liked it a lot but I had this very bad pattern effect going from the sensor. Long time ago though. They make nice gear just not for me being a working Pro.

I won't argue points for either of them its a matter of preferences.


I think that's what it ultimately comes down to. I started out film, went APC with the 20D... had APC till the 5D came out and then stuck with that series until I quit and then switched to Fuji. The allure of the full frame had me curious for a long time. Im glad I picked it up. Not so glad I started this thread lol.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:17 PM
kesava
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


sebbe wrote:
Dear kesava

It's true most people would not recognize the difference of sensorsize within their personal photography. But this does not mean it can be ignored in a comparison.

A bigger sensor comes with the disatvantages of a higher weight, bigger size and more money. On your comparison list this has influence on 3 of 6 points ("size", "lenses", "value"). The points "AF" and "features" are indirectly influenced.

Therefore one point will be left for a fair comparison regardless of the sensorsize. It's "controls". Talk about that and no one will disturb your thread with the issue "sensorsize".



I don't think it needs to be ignored, but if you need a big sensor, there's going to be a clear line in the sand. If you need really fast glass... again... clear line in the sand. I decided to touch on the more ethereal aspects of these two systems. The one's that had me debating which to pick up



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:20 PM
Mystik
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


GMPhotography wrote:
Im just a Full Frame guy so its all Sony and i need Mpx for a lot of work. I had a Fuji and liked it a lot but I had this very bad pattern effect going from the sensor. Long time ago though. They make nice gear just not for me being a working Pro.

I won't argue points for either of them its a matter of preferences.


Yeah. The flip-side is that Sony pretty much abandoned the casual shooters that initially bought into the a7 system because it was a smaller, cheaper system...both on the FF and aps-c side. Sony has set their sights on dethroning the DSLR giants and are pushing the envelope in terms of performance, but the cameras and lenses keep getting bigger and more expensive. I'm happy with it because Sony basically meets all of my needs, but I can see why others might feel alienated by Sony these days. The aps-c side of things with Sony is pretty dismal IMO. The bodies are crippled ergonomically, and the lens offerings are really lacking. It's pretty clear where Sony's priorities are, and if smaller/cheaper were my priority, I'd be looking at Fuji too.



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:21 PM
kesava
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · The hot debate, Fuji and Sony


justruss wrote:
Similar story:

5D2 > added Fuji XE-1 > added A7rII > sold 5D2/X-E1.

The whole process lasted about 18months, with ~6 months of overlap between all three cameras being used side-by-side (and countless in-print publications with all three cameras, including a glossy mag cover for the Fuji).

There was no comparison in the end-- for me. The A7rII is something I still use and marvel at.


What was the defining moment that made you choose?



Jul 26, 2017 at 12:24 PM
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