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Archive 2017 · D850 High ISO Performance?

  
 
CanadaMark
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Mark_L wrote:
Why? That camera was announced in June 2015!


Yeah I think the chances are slim to none for that one. Even if they did use it, it would be significantly revised. Most likely an exclusive all new sensor, just like what they did for the D500 contract with Sony.



Jul 25, 2017 at 11:05 AM
elkhornsun
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · D850 High ISO Performance?


I have the D810 and the D750 and the D810 has such poor autofocus performance that I use it only with stationary subjects or landscape photography.

All cameras involve compromises. The D5 provides very high ISO capabilities and high fps capture rates but it does so with the use of expensive XQD memory cards and a 20.9MP sensor.

Something that I believe is being overlooked is that ultra high ISO capabilities are of value in only a very tiny number of situations and for a very small group of niche shooters. I can see a pro sports shooter wanting 1/2000s at f/4 with their telephoto lens and with the lighting levels requiring a very high ISO setting.

I have never been in a situation where I needed more than ISO 6400 and shot with film for decades where ISO 160 Ektachrome was as good as it got.



Jul 25, 2017 at 11:54 AM
blutch
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Yes. Good points. If I could afford a D5, I could sorely use it. The D750 has served me VERY well in these extreme low light situations. I want to upgrade for other features, but can't afford to lose the low light functions.

Thanks for your comments

B



Jul 25, 2017 at 12:00 PM
ccihon
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · D850 High ISO Performance?


My D810 autofocuses quite well - only can compare it to Canon 1Ds series, and it compares favorably. Same logic you used for high ISO could be used for super AF too - not everyone needs it, and I too shot film - you can always push process that E-6! - anyway, we were also focusing manually in those days. Focus was only as fast as you were - and some were quite good.

Seriously, though - I shot some sports with the D810 and 70-200 and have few missed focus images. I find the combo hunts around indoors in low light, maybe? Is that the focus weakness you are seeing? The rumor mill suggest D850 AF same system as D5.



Jul 25, 2017 at 12:02 PM
Lauchlan Toal
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · D850 High ISO Performance?


elkhornsun wrote:
I have the D810 and the D750 and the D810 has such poor autofocus performance that I use it only with stationary subjects or landscape photography.

All cameras involve compromises. The D5 provides very high ISO capabilities and high fps capture rates but it does so with the use of expensive XQD memory cards and a 20.9MP sensor.

Something that I believe is being overlooked is that ultra high ISO capabilities are of value in only a very tiny number of situations and for a very small group of niche shooters. I can see a pro sports shooter wanting 1/2000s
...Show more

I think the group of people who find the D810 AF too poor for moving subjects is even smaller than the group of people who shoot above ISO 6400.

Personally, I run into high ISO situations fairly often. Shooting pretty much anything at dusk is going to put me in that range, and football games in many highschool stadiums are too poorly lit for ISO 6400 (unless you drop your shutter speed to 1/100). And I've made due with the D610 AF for that, so even the D800 would be an upgrade there.

But I do agree that the D750 has better AF than the D810, and the D5 is better still. And yeah, plenty of people don't shoot at ISO 8000+. Still, AF improvements and IQ improvements will both be very welcome in the D850, hopefully Nikon can pull off an impressive camera that doesn't have any weird issues.




Jul 25, 2017 at 12:02 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Just to level-set, here is a D750 vs D810 High ISO comparison I did a while ago:

D750 vs D810 High ISO Comparison

And my video comparison:




Jul 25, 2017 at 12:30 PM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · D850 High ISO Performance?


elkhornsun wrote:
I have the D810 and the D750 and the D810 has such poor autofocus performance that I use it only with stationary subjects or landscape photography.


If it's half as bad as you describe, it sounds like your D810 is defective or might need a trip to Nikon. A good number of users here including myself have no issues with the D810 and fast action and/or BIF. The only way you're getting a truly huge step up is with the CAM20K system. The D750 has better low light AF performance than the D810, the rest is very similar or the same, including the processor driving it all.

The most annoying thing about the D810 when I got it was my hit rate was now so high, I always had so many identical images to delete until I got used to just shooting less and trusting the camera.



Jul 25, 2017 at 12:31 PM
Zach-55
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Then something is very wrong with your D810 or your technique or both.
I am using my D810 for pro-shooting equestrian, show jumping tournaments, both outdoors and indoors with great results, so your statement about poor AF performance of D810 sounds to me very strange and out of place.

elkhornsun wrote:
I have the D810 and the D750 and the D810 has such poor autofocus performance that I use it only with stationary subjects or landscape photography.





Jul 25, 2017 at 01:18 PM
blutch
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · D850 High ISO Performance?


snapsy wrote:
Just to level-set, here is a D750 vs D810 High ISO comparison I did a while ago:

D750 vs D810 High ISO Comparison

And my video comparison:



I was really hoping Snapsy would chime in on this one. When can you do it for the D850?

To my eye, the D750 wins hand down at every ISO shown.

B



Jul 25, 2017 at 08:48 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · D850 High ISO Performance?


blutch wrote:
I was really hoping Snapsy would chime in on this one. When can you do it for the D850?

To my eye, the D750 wins hand down at every ISO shown.

B


The D750 definitely wins in shadow noise but keep in mind that by ISO 12,800 the amount of midtone noise ("shot noise") reduces the number of situations where either camera produces usable photos. Certainly there will be cases where the photos will still be usable.



Jul 25, 2017 at 09:28 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · D850 High ISO Performance?


philber wrote:
PP, from memory, there was an article where Sony were said to have stated that they wouldn't sell their best sensors to other camera makers. Sony themselves then said that their position had been misstated and that they would sell Nikon etc... their best sensors.


Ok I didn't see that but I thought what they said didn't make sense. The sensor division is not the same as the camera division and their investment in fabs means they need contracts like Nikon's to help with viability. Having said that the rumors, which admittedly could all be BS, have been saying a 45-46MP sensor from Nikon. Will they be designing a scaled up D500 sensor. To me the jump from 36MP to 42MP doesn't quite fit with Nikon's statement yesterday that the D850 will be high res and high speed. I suspect Nikon might like to get closer to the Canon 5Ds in resolution while soundly trouncing it on speed. Mind you if they wanted to offer say A9II performance with a 42MP sensor and D5 AF, I won't be complaining.



Jul 26, 2017 at 04:23 AM
dugaut
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Ok I didn't see that but I thought what they said didn't make sense. The sensor division is not the same as the camera division and their investment in fabs means they need contracts like Nikon's to help with viability. Having said that the rumors, which admittedly could all be BS, have been saying a 45-46MP sensor from Nikon. Will they be designing a scaled up D500 sensor. To me the jump from 36MP to 42MP doesn't quite fit with Nikon's statement yesterday that the D850 will be high res and high speed. I suspect Nikon might like to
...Show more

The last sentence is about what we don't quite have yet. The A-Mount of the Sony A99II is its achilles heel. I've used my 5DSR for slower sports (vs 1DXII or D5) and I love the ability to crop to different compositions in post.

8 fps on the D850 and somewhere in the 40s for MP and that would really entice me. I'm not betting on the 8 fps though.




Jul 26, 2017 at 04:39 AM
reggieb
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Mark_L wrote:
Why? That camera was announced in June 2015!


Still probably the best FF sensor on the market. There haven't been revolutionary jumps in some time in the sensor market.

Pixel Perfect wrote:
Impossible, Sony has already stated that sensor will not be sold to third parties, earlier this year. The rumors fwiw say Nikon is developing a 45-46MP sensor, no doubt SOny will fab it, but its a Nikon design I assume with a lot of Sony tech. Claims of improved DR and noise, but then again it could all be BS.


I believe that what actually happened was a product manager for their line of cameras said that their best sensors would be exclusive. That is someone with a horse in the game who doesn't have the authority to make such a decision, and I believe it was contradicted by others later. Either way, I don't buy it.

CanadaMark wrote:
Yeah I think the chances are slim to none for that one. Even if they did use it, it would be significantly revised. Most likely an exclusive all new sensor, just like what they did for the D500 contract with Sony.


Go ahead and "revise" it, it won't be significantly improved, but I'd bet Nikon wants to shoot for something with slightly better base DR, as that is their MO for this line. That sensor would outperform the "scaled up" D500 sensor as many seem to feel they're going to use. Right now, newer isn't automatically better for sensors.



Jul 26, 2017 at 06:56 AM
blutch
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · D850 High ISO Performance?


snapsy wrote:
The D750 definitely wins in shadow noise but keep in mind that by ISO 12,800 the amount of midtone noise ("shot noise") reduces the number of situations where either camera produces usable photos. Certainly there will be cases where the photos will still be usable.


Snapsy - I mostly shoot people from a distance. I would love to see a test like this between the D750 and D810 on a person's face shot with a telephoto lens from a distance in crappy light. How do you think it would come out? At what point would the D750 look better? ISO 3200??

I think I will try to do this kind of test next week. Any suggestions on how to do it technically?

B





Jul 26, 2017 at 09:06 AM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · D850 High ISO Performance?


reggieb wrote:
Go ahead and "revise" it, it won't be significantly improved, but I'd bet Nikon wants to shoot for something with slightly better base DR, as that is their MO for this line. That sensor would outperform the "scaled up" D500 sensor as many seem to feel they're going to use. Right now, newer isn't automatically better for sensors.


If you recall the D3 --> D3s, there was quite a significant improvement from that revision. That being said, I also believe they will have something all-new. They will most likely contract something exclusive from Sony a la D500.

I'm more interested in their "range of new technologies"...hopefully at least a few of them are actually new and impressive.



Jul 26, 2017 at 09:20 AM
snapsy
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · D850 High ISO Performance?


blutch wrote:
Snapsy - I mostly shoot people from a distance. I would love to see a test like this between the D750 and D810 on a person's face shot with a telephoto lens from a distance in crappy light. How do you think it would come out? At what point would the D750 look better? ISO 3200??

I think I will try to do this kind of test next week. Any suggestions on how to do it technically?

B


I don't think you'll see much difference at ISO 3200, even in the darkest tones. Here's a link I generated using dpreview's image quality widget. I specified D750 vs D800, ISO 3200, low-light, and equalized to the same resolution:

D750 vs D810, ISO 3200, Low-Light, Equalized Resolution



Jul 26, 2017 at 10:06 AM
Mark_L
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · D850 High ISO Performance?


reggieb wrote:
Still probably the best FF sensor on the market. There haven't been revolutionary jumps in some time in the sensor market.


I'm hoping it'll have a new one not yet on the market after all the time since then, especially if they plan to give it a mid-life tart-up like D800 to D810. It'll be out of date when it hit the market and then the A7rIII will come out with some of the A9 tech and eat it for breakfast.



Jul 26, 2017 at 11:30 AM
reggieb
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · D850 High ISO Performance?


Mark_L wrote:
I'm hoping it'll have a new one not yet on the market after all the time since then, especially if they plan to give it a mid-life tart-up like D800 to D810. It'll be out of date when it hit the market and then the A7rIII will come out with some of the A9 tech and eat it for breakfast.


Sensor tech hasn't been marching forward very quickly for quite some time. It remains the #1 sensor by DXO's estimate, and the D800E is sitting at 5th place, announced 5 years ago. DXO might not be the end-all be-all, but it can at least give you a rough idea of sensor performance.

So assuming you at least agree that DXO's sensor scores aren't complete trash, you have to come to the realization that sensors, while still advancing, are advancing much more slowly under today's technology paradigm then they were 10 years ago. Given this, until some new sensor tech is out, I'd rather they save money by using an existing FF sensor, and put their focus on features like focus peaking, FF readout for video, video AF, etc.

CanadaMark wrote:
If you recall the D3 --> D3s, there was quite a significant improvement from that revision. That being said, I also believe they will have something all-new. They will most likely contract something exclusive from Sony a la D500.

I'm more interested in their "range of new technologies"...hopefully at least a few of them are actually new and impressive.


Agree wholeheartedly with that last line.



Jul 27, 2017 at 10:39 AM
SoundHound
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · D850 High ISO Performance?


There's only so much Salami. You can slice it various ways. The D850 will not be optimized for lowest light, Hi(est) ISO and fps that's been done with the D5. The D5 gives up low ISO DR for approx a 1/2 stop better highest ISO.

The D5 goes 12/14 fps at 21 mP with a large data pipeline. If you keep the premium data pipeline and double the mP to 42 then halve the fps to 7. The D850 will optimize the low ISO DR just like the D800/810. As for not needing above ISO 6400 step inside to dim stage lighting.



Jul 28, 2017 at 06:44 AM
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