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Archive 2017 · An uncomfortable truth

  
 
Lauchlan Toal
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · An uncomfortable truth


I agree, while Canon certainly isn't the most innovative company in the world, their latest cameras like the 1DXII and 5DIV have been very solid and competitive in most ways with other brands. Even their crop sensor cameras like the 80D and T7i are pretty decent for what they are. I don't think any of those cameras necessarily blow away the competition, but neither are they blown away by the competition.

Which is perhaps why the 6DII is getting so much negative discussion. Canon had just begun to fix their DR deficit and add 4k to cameras, then suddenly it's like they time travelled back to 2013 to get the tech for the 6DII. The 6D to 6DII jump is more akin to what you'd expect in the yearly entry level APS-C camera update rather than a multi-year update of a fairly high end camera (sure, it's no 5D, but pros definitely use the 6D).

And that's not to say no one will buy the camera, or that it's a bad camera. It seems like it is a step up from the 6D, and it's still cheaper than the 5DIV so for some people it'll be a great option. It just seems like you should be getting a bit more for your money, considering the other cameras Canon's been putting out.



Jul 24, 2017 at 04:52 PM
Aztatlan
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · An uncomfortable truth


garyvot wrote:
An objective look at the dynamic range of the 5D4 sensor would put it slightly behind that of the Sony A7R II (therefore, quite good). The D810 (the assumed "direct competitor") is a stop or more better than both because it has a base ISO of 64, not because of some other inherent superiority.



Not quite right. There certainly is "some other inherent superiority" in the D810 sensor (at least as pertains to dynamic range) aside from ISO64. Yes, ISO64 is part of it but if we work backwards we can assess that only 0.5 stops of the 1.2 stop advantage it holds over the 5DIV is due to the lower base ISO.

D810 offered a 0.5EV improvement in DR over the D800E (which used a base ISO of 100) which leaves an inherent 0.7EV DR advantage for the base sensor. I acknowledge this isn't overly significant (although by the time you get up to 1.2 stops it starts becoming so) but it is disingenuous to suggest that the lower base ISO is the sole reason the D810 outperforms the 5DIV on this particular metric.



Jul 24, 2017 at 05:19 PM
gfiksel
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · An uncomfortable truth


Aztatlan wrote:
Not quite right. There certainly is "some other inherent superiority" in the D810 sensor (at least as pertains to dynamic range) aside from ISO64. Yes, ISO64 is part of it but if we work backwards we can assess that only 0.5 stops of the 1.2 stop advantage it holds over the 5DIV is due to the lower base ISO.

D810 offered a 0.5EV improvement in DR over the D800E (which used a base ISO of 100) which leaves an inherent 0.7EV DR advantage for the base sensor. I acknowledge this isn't overly significant (although by the time you get up
...Show more

Well, but isn't it that 5d iv outperforms d810 at ALL ISOs from ISO200 and up? https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Nikon-D810___1106_963



Jul 24, 2017 at 05:32 PM
bootster
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · An uncomfortable truth


Lauchlan Toal wrote:
I agree, while Canon certainly isn't the most innovative company in the world, their latest cameras like the 1DXII and 5DIV have been very solid and competitive in most ways with other brands. Even their crop sensor cameras like the 80D and T7i are pretty decent for what they are. I don't think any of those cameras necessarily blow away the competition, but neither are they blown away by the competition.

Which is perhaps why the 6DII is getting so much negative discussion. Canon had just begun to fix their DR deficit and add 4k to cameras, then suddenly it's
...Show more

The camera is a semi-redesign with the tilt/flip/touch screen, more pixels, and it adds dual pixel AF. It has a new sensor, many more focus points, all cross type, almost doubles the frames per second (a huge plus to almost any any shooting style), has a much faster buffer for continuous shooting, has a 4K time lapse, adds bluetooth capability and some more things that are valuable extras like a stereo instead of the 6D's mono mic and a tad bit better battery life. The price is also lower than the 6D as the $2,000 then would buy more than it does now.

That being said, I know there's the discussion on the DR, but I'm a hobbyist, and I am pretty sure that the 26 vs 20 MP will make enough of a difference in quality that I won't miss the disputed DR range, if in fact that hold true in the end. I just see this as a more user friendly, better quality (it has better weather sealing than the 6D) camera for the advanced hobbyist. I guess people who are pixel peepers and thorough technology inspectors may scoff at the small discrepancies. I'm sold on the ergonomic upgrade and the faster frame rate and buffer, most of all.


I've said this before, and I can honestly say that every new offering from Canon will take a beating in it's lead up to release, and when it hits the streets, it will be flying off the shelves. The people who overlook the plain, obvious advantages are the ones who will lose out, as the ability to now have the same tilt/flip/touch screen interface on all of my cameras will add to the ease of changing between shooting the 80D and this new camera. It will be so nice not to be trying to chimp the screen, only to be dumbfounded by the fact that my 6D doesn't react to the touch factor that this feature alone has me really psyched to get this new camera in my gear bag.

Edited on Jul 24, 2017 at 05:43 PM · View previous versions



Jul 24, 2017 at 05:39 PM
arbitrage
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · An uncomfortable truth


Aztatlan wrote:
Not quite right. There certainly is "some other inherent superiority" in the D810 sensor (at least as pertains to dynamic range) aside from ISO64. Yes, ISO64 is part of it but if we work backwards we can assess that only 0.5 stops of the 1.2 stop advantage it holds over the 5DIV is due to the lower base ISO.

D810 offered a 0.5EV improvement in DR over the D800E (which used a base ISO of 100) which leaves an inherent 0.7EV DR advantage for the base sensor. I acknowledge this isn't overly significant (although by the time you get up
...Show more

Along with the DXO data posted above, there is also photonstophotos data that shows the only D810 advantage is at the extra 2/3rds stop lower ISO. At ISO 100 they are almost identical and other than a little blip by the 5D4 at ISO 120 the 5D4 is better for the rest of the ISO range. So yes it is the lower base ISO that makes ALL the difference and at ISO 100 they are equal or 5D4 is better.

The A7R2 is the better DR camera from ISO 100 onwards but equal in ISO 160 through ISO 500. And again the D810 is only better in the area of its lower base ISO.












Jul 24, 2017 at 05:42 PM
molson
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · An uncomfortable truth


Milan Hutera wrote:
The only two problems with 5DIV are the price and poorly implemented 4K.


The price is the only reason I don't own one at the moment... that and the fact that used ones are scarcer than hen's teeth.



Jul 24, 2017 at 05:45 PM
CW100
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · An uncomfortable truth


bootster wrote:
The camera is a semi-redesign with the tilt/flip/touch screen, more pixels, and it adds dual pixel AF. It has a new sensor, many more focus points, all cross type, almost doubles the frames per second (a huge plus to almost any any shooting style), has a much faster buffer for continuous shooting, has a 4K time lapse, adds bluetooth capability and some more things that are valuable extras like a stereo instead of the 6D's mono mic and a tad bit better battery life. The price is also lower than the 6D as the $2,000 then would buy more than
...Show more

right, Canon is definitely outselling the competition ... cuz the image quality ... the lens ??

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless/



Jul 24, 2017 at 05:46 PM
bootster
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · An uncomfortable truth


CW100 wrote:
right, Canon is outselling the competition ... cuz the image quality ??

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless/


I don't know where you got the idea from me that the camera was going to be selling well due to image quality. Perhaps you quoted the wrong post? I didn't say the image quality was going to be better per se, just that it will be a better image as far as pixel size and resolution go. It's called context. You have to read things in context.

And don't edit to add things.



Jul 24, 2017 at 05:54 PM
CW100
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · An uncomfortable truth


bootster wrote:
I don't know where you got the idea from me that the camera was going to be selling well due to image quality. Perhaps you quoted the wrong post? I didn't say the image quality was going to be better per se, just that it will be a better image as far as pixel size and resolution go. It's called context. You have to read things in context.

And don't edit to add things.



!
you're the one editing things !

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:10 PM
CW100
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · An uncomfortable truth


molson wrote:
The price is the only reason I don't own one at the moment... that and the fact that used ones are scarcer than hen's teeth.


right, definitely price .... but I don't care about 4K video
www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:14 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · An uncomfortable truth


Eric Mastilak wrote:
https://fstoppers.com/critiques/disappointment-after-disappointment-what-wrong-canon-188893



"Sony A6300
Sony A7r2
Ziess 55mm f1.8
Ziess 16-35mm F4
Sigma 30mm F1.4 Contemporary DC DN
Sony 80mm f1.8
Canon 70-200mm f2.8L
Sigma 150-600
Sigma MC-11"



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:19 PM
bootster
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · An uncomfortable truth


CW100 wrote:
!
you're the one editing things !

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless


Your right, on my original post I typed "that that", and changed it to "that this". Some edit, huh. I sense we have a disgruntled member in our midst. You edited your post in time to miss the marker, but you edited it, all the same.



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:20 PM
CW100
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · An uncomfortable truth


bootster wrote:
Your right, on my original post I typed "that that", and changed it to "that this". Some edit, huh. I sense we have a disgruntled member in our midst. You edited your post in time to miss the marker, but you edited it, all the same.


!
you're probably the disgruntled poster in "our" midst !

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:22 PM
Eric Mastilak
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · An uncomfortable truth


I sold all of my Canon gear after shooting Canon for 15 years. I had a 5D4 up until few months ago. I still think Canon makes great gear, but for me as a hobbyist I found the Sony made more sense. Look at the pictures I have posted over the years 99% of them are with Canon gear. So I fail to see your point of posting the gear I use.


Jul 24, 2017 at 06:24 PM
bootster
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · An uncomfortable truth


molson wrote:
The price is the only reason I don't own one at the moment... that and the fact that used ones are scarcer than hen's teeth.


The 5D Mk IV is all over craigslist, if you want to deal with scammers. I was surprised to see them, and then I realized that it was a camera that a lot of people were flooding the sites with. Beware of the 5D Mk IV on CL. Not that I was looking to buy one. I have my preorder in for a 6D Mk II and couldn't be happier!



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:36 PM
PetKal
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · An uncomfortable truth


gdanmitchell wrote:
"Sony A6300
Sony A7r2
Ziess 55mm f1.8
Ziess 16-35mm F4
Sigma 30mm F1.4 Contemporary DC DN
Sony 80mm f1.8
Canon 70-200mm f2.8L
Sigma 150-600
Sigma MC-11"


Awlright, this is starting to resemble the good old days: Dan the Man is back.
I wish some more of my old friends would join in such as Chez and MTTRAN.

Incidentally, Dan, I find your post to be cryptic somewhat. What is that list of gears meant to suggest ?

Edited on Jul 24, 2017 at 06:42 PM · View previous versions



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:41 PM
Paul Mo
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · An uncomfortable truth




Scoobert wrote:
NOOOOO Not the truth.
Canon apologist can't handle the truth.For proof of this see the poster right above mine.


Erroneous assumption Scoobert, as you don't know me from a bar of soap.



Jul 24, 2017 at 06:41 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · An uncomfortable truth


PetKal wrote:
...I believe Canon dSLRs are becoming increasingly boring, uninspired and expensive.
They have lost my trust, and they have lost my dSLR purchase money...


I feel so lucky that I get to spend my retirement using a camera like my 5D3 or 5D4 or 80D with lenses like the 16-35f4, 24-105f4, 100L, 100-400 II or 55-250! I can go anywhere and shoot anything and bring home magnificent images under almost any humanly endurable condition. Things are so much better than in my Kodachrome days. I feel so lucky that I have a 27" 220 PPI display to view my images and bring back all the rich detail and memories - better than I could have seen with my aging eyes.

I feel really badly for those who don't realize how good they have it. Who don't appreciate that cameras are so good they can take any old Rebel and take a wonderful image. Those who are looking for just one more stop of DR, 'cus that will make all the difference. Those who will never be satisfied with what they have and who think the next miracle is just around the corner.

It was cooler today and the beer tasted so good! Life is good! What would Stillfingers say?




Jul 24, 2017 at 07:27 PM
molson
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · An uncomfortable truth


bootster wrote:
The 5D Mk IV is all over craigslist, if you want to deal with scammers. I was surprised to see them, and then I realized that it was a camera that a lot of people were flooding the sites with. Beware of the 5D Mk IV on CL. Not that I was looking to buy one. I have my preorder in for a 6D Mk II and couldn't be happier!



Like I said, used ones are very scarce...



Jul 24, 2017 at 07:43 PM
Bloom
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · An uncomfortable truth


The OP is a loser and he uses a loser camera system that's why he posted that garbage on a popular form I don't read the Nikon form or Sony or alternative because they are all losers


Jul 24, 2017 at 07:50 PM
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