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Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?
  
 
Trevorma
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Mikehit wrote:
So with weddings costing thousands of dollars the price of a photographer often takes the hit so who is to blame - the jobbing semi-pro or the client who doesn't know better and often doesn't care or doesn't do a proper balancing of risks?



Why are wedding costs skyrocketing? Who is to blame? The people who devalue photography.

It's simple. why? Do the flourists undercut one another until one does the gig for free just to have their name mentioned in the facebook post when the B&G post the event? Does the venue offer it's services for free cause it will bring in more people who attend that particular wedding? Is the catering free because the caterer is competing with others?

People who provide a service of any other kind for a wedding are getting paid. Photographers aren't cause as mentioned above when presented with free, the choice is almost made for the couple.

Same goes for a sports event, the venue is not free, the food at the concessions are not free.... yet photogs line up one after another to shoot the event for free in "hopes" of getting an image in the paper or a web post of their "work".

Folks won't understand what is going on until it hits THEIR day job. As I mentioned before the minute someone offers to do YOUR day job for free you will understand.





Jul 12, 2017 at 03:55 PM
dmacmillan
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


secondclaw wrote:
.

A while ago I and a fellow hobby photographer were approached by a Pro who complained about our attitude of giving away prints for free - as it erodes value of work that a professional photographer would try to sell.

So what do professional photographers here think?

I'd be interested in the circumstances under which you and your friend were approached by a Pro. I'd also like to know more about the Pro, how long this person has been doing professional photography, if photography is their sole source of income, what training/qualifications they bring to the table, etc. I think in this day and age the term "professional photographer" is practically meaningless. It certainly doesn't have the same meaning it did 30, 40, 50 or 75 years ago.

I spent 25 years in professional photography in one capacity or another. There were many years where my family's sole source of income was through my full time pro work. I have a B.F.A. in photography, which was a tremendous help in legal photography, since I had credentials to be an expert witness.

The world of professional photography has changed for more than just the typical mom and pop wedding/portrait photographer. I did primarily commercial/industrial work. There were a number of industries in my area, including the corporate headquarters of a large textile company, a Keebler Bakery, a huge cigarette manufacturing plant, a frozen foods warehouse complex, a large Proctor and Gamble Plant, a YKK zipper plant and several kaolin mines. I did work for all of them and almost all are no longer here.

The world has changed. You, your friend and others like you didn't bring on the decline of professional photography. I feel sorry for the "Pro" you mentioned, that attitude prevents them from seeing the true reality of the situation.



Jul 12, 2017 at 05:33 PM
chez
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Trevorma wrote:
Why are wedding costs skyrocketing? Who is to blame? The people who devalue photography.

It's simple. why? Do the flourists undercut one another until one does the gig for free just to have their name mentioned in the facebook post when the B&G post the event? Does the venue offer it's services for free cause it will bring in more people who attend that particular wedding? Is the catering free because the caterer is competing with others?

People who provide a service of any other kind for a wedding are getting paid. Photographers aren't cause as mentioned above when presented with free,
...Show more


Well if someone wants to work at my old job for free...have at it...but no one will. Sucks that photography is a hobby for many, relaxation or an art form where they love doing it for free. If you cannot successfully market your product against the onslaught of hobbiest...then it's time to move on. Simple as that. My local pub which makes one hell of a burger does not even blink when McDonalds puts on a two for one promotion on their burgers. The pub markets their service and experience and has zero affect by what's going on around them.

As far people's jobs going away due to technology or undercutting by shipping work offshore...that's been happening for many years now and millions of people have been affected by this, losing their jobs, entire factories closing down. Do you really think photographers have some unique situation here? open your eyes and you'll see it happening to people on your block.



Jul 12, 2017 at 06:08 PM
rw11
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


an amateur does not erode the value of work by a professional photographer, the amatuer simply exposes the fact that that value is less than the "pro" thinks it is

some pros will whine about this, others will exhibit and be remembered decades from now




Jul 12, 2017 at 06:22 PM
TheRoosta
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Great thread. Interesting perspective between the for's and against. Generating a lot of emotion. Maybe somebody has already alluded to this, but at the end of the day doesn't it just boil down to being a buyers market? In other words, clients or customers for photography services are making choices for themselves. It doesn't matter whether you are professional or an amateur, it's all about what the customer wants, and what they're prepared to pay for. There isn't a law that says you can't provide photographic services for free, or at a substantially reduced price, or for no margin. If the results are sub-standard, then the client made a bad choice, and if the client is discerning of quality they will be driven back to using professional services the next time around. Am I missing something?

Baby-boomers have had to re-invent themselves time and again because their chosen profession has stone-walled due to the world changing at a whirlwind pace (me included). I have empathy for photographic professionals. Their livelihood has been eroded by the ubiquity and availability of equipment and software tools to the 'average joe', such that fine works can be created with no formal training in photography whatsoever, achieved just through practice and freely available educational resources.

As hard as it is to accept the reality of free or subsidized work, it's wrong to berate those that do it. I often photograph special-needs events in my area, because there's barely enough funding to stage those events, let alone a budget to pay for professional photographers. I give my services and time for free. My photography is not professional-grade, but it's good enough for the parents of the kids that attend, and for the quarterly special-needs events publications. Does that make me a moron?



Jul 12, 2017 at 06:25 PM
Weasel_Loader
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
Well if someone wants to work at my old job for free...have at it...but no one will. Sucks that photography is a hobby for many, relaxation or an art form where they love doing it for free. If you cannot successfully market your product against the onslaught of hobbiest...then it's time to move on. Simple as that. My local pub which makes one hell of a burger does not even blink when McDonalds puts on a two for one promotion on their burgers. The pub markets their service and experience and has zero affect by what's going on around them.

As
...Show more

Well stated Chez!



Jul 12, 2017 at 06:27 PM
leethecam
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?




Folks won't understand what is going on until it hits THEIR day job. As I mentioned before the minute someone offers to do YOUR day job for free you will understand.




This is the crux of the whole thing.

To the people who say it's just market forces and we need to adapt or just move on and do something different... I wonder what that different thing is when we've spent our lives crafting what we do. I'm finding it very tight because clients tell themselves cheap is just as good, cheap offers the same guarantees and cheap does the job every bit as well.

And many of the clients don't have experience to tell what they're missing because it's the blind leading the blind. Many of my clients truly do believe that an i-Phone always delivers the same as me with a pro DSLR and a carefully placed set of Profotos. They themselves are cheap labour and they themselves are inexperienced enough to not know what "good" truly is.

I've been looking around for other opportunities which I am eminently qualified for - in buckets... but I'm told I'm not suitable, mainly because I can't / won't work for minimum wage. (Try doing a mortgage / pension / insurance on 20,000 in London at the age of 50 and see how you go).

The people who say pros should stop "whining" aren't faced with the same dilemma. They say they've seen it happen to others, they claim they would not whine. Take their staff jobs away tomorrow and replace them immediately with a cheap teenager, and see if they go home quietly. I'm thinking not.

I have no issue with an amateur doing a job and charging similar to what I would charge. Kudos to them if they can pull it off. But don't do my job without my responsibilities, and undercut me because you want a little entertainment over the weekend. (Wouldn't it be fun if I could do that to you...)


Jul 12, 2017 at 08:05 PM
mikekeating
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


I will also go along with the rise of digital photography as starting to "devalue" the field. But going one step forward, placing a camera on everyone's phone. This is the biggest killer of the photography business.

The other big killer is . . .photographers. When I am shooting an event I see people with their phones or the D3400 and kit lens trying to take pictures and will sometimes come over to me and strike up a conversation. I have no problem talking to people about photography, I like sharing information with other people that have the same interest as myself. Normally people respond that most photographers "snap" at them . . .now, if you try to strike up a conversation during the peak of action, I might "snap" at them, but if people approach at halftime or before a game I normally have no problem talking. Sometimes just giving one basic tip (get low, increase the shutter speed, etc) is all you need to share - no real big trade secrets there- and you have shaped people's opinion about yourself and the profession.

Now, the one issue I do have is this . . .people comparing photography to other professions, I think we had a carpenter as an example . . .no, not even close to the same. If someone showed up to a job site with pro grade tools offering to work for free, they would probably be thrown off the site by the foreman and have his tools stolen. There was another thread in which someone compared photography to being a physician, please.

As stated in this thread, education is key to being a good photographer (but actually going and practicing is a bigger key), but when you tell someone: read books, watch YouTube, read blogs, etc . . .you are not really doing a good job of painting the picture of the education needed for the profession. Can't really learn to be an iron worker in a high rise watching YouTube videos or be a physician by reading a blog.



Jul 12, 2017 at 08:06 PM
Trevorma
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


chez wrote:
My local pub which makes one hell of a burger does not even blink when McDonalds puts on a two for one promotion on their burgers. The pub markets their service and experience and has zero affect by what's going on around them.


Everyone keeps coming up with different examples...... but in the one above your example lacks in two areas.

1) The McDonalds burgers are FREE, and
2) They have set up a mini McDonalds right out in front of your local pub......

Look I am not a pro. I have a day job but I can, and do see what people shooting for free or next too nothing has done to the industry as a whole.......

My eyes are WIDE open... As I said earlier I am one "APP" or a "co-op", or an "intern" away from being out of a job, just like a lot of other folks who seem to think the issue is more about marketing then there being a "free" option.




Jul 12, 2017 at 08:46 PM
Mikehit
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


mikekeating wrote:
I will also go along with the rise of digital photography as starting to "devalue" the field. But going one step forward, placing a camera on everyone's phone. This is the biggest killer of the photography business.


What do you mean by 'devalue'? I contend it is a meaningless phrase.
Photography is done to create an image. In the 1950s a good skilled photographer would be able to tell you immediately what exposure settings to use in almost any situation where as an amateur would screw it up most of the time. We now have autometerng - has that 'devalued' photography'? Nope. It has widened the art to more people
and the thing that matters is the end result..
In the 1970s a skilled photographer could track a bird in flight. A non-skilled photographer could not. We now have AF - does that 'devalue photography'? Nope. The thing that matters is the end result.

The rise of ISO less photographers mean the skills in recognising and allowing for high contrast or widely varying conditions will soon be less demanding. No devaluing that I can see because what matters is the end result.

As for Photoshop....but very soon the skill will not be in capturing the image but your vision in how it is presented. I like to get an image right in camera but I am part of a dying breed and when I see an impressive image my first thought is not 'has it been photoshopped' but 'nice image'.

Times move on and the goalposts change.


mikekeating wrote:
Now, the one issue I do have is this . . .people comparing photography to other professions, I think we had a carpenter as an example . . .no, not even close to the same.


Don't be so precious.
Do the rise of power tools devalue the carpentry skills of the 1800s? Or just widen the opportunities to people who would love to make their own cabinet but do not have the time or the ability to learn how work wood to within a thousandth of an inch with a plane.
Different tools, different skills. It is directly analagous.




Jul 12, 2017 at 09:05 PM
 

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chez
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Trevorma wrote:
Everyone keeps coming up with different examples...... but in the one above your example lacks in two areas.

1) The McDonalds burgers are FREE, and
2) They have set up a mini McDonalds right out in front of your local pub......

Look I am not a pro. I have a day job but I can, and do see what people shooting for free or next too nothing has done to the industry as a whole.......

My eyes are WIDE open... As I said earlier I am one "APP" or a "co-op", or an "intern" away from being out of a job, just like a
...Show more

Well I truly believe it is about marketing and selling. Photogs had it easy for many years because the entry barrier to the profession was high. That had been erased with digital and phones. Now the hard part comes where you need to market and sell your services against the freeby's. If you can't do this you whine on the net and go out of business...maybe you should have not been in this business.

I know a couple of wedding photographers that are booked years out...how can this happen when uncle Joe is willing to shoot the wedding for free? Maybe they know how to run a business not just how to press the shutter.



Jul 12, 2017 at 09:33 PM
mikekeating
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Precious? Must be a UK thing. I am using the phrase "devalue" as it has been used previously in this thread. People have a camera on their phone, why pay for something that just goes on instagram / Facebook and will look fine one a 9.5 inch screen?

Power tools of today devalue the woodworking of 200 years ago? I don't know that you can make that comparison. I am not even sure that makes sense. Let me make it more direct. In London, there are a lot of old buildings, many older than my country. Many of these renovation projects (for the interior-will only allow craftsmen to use hand tools-if my tour guides of Windsor, Bath and London were accurate). These are highly skilled people and they will not even allow a rank amateur to set foot in the place. So power tools actually increased the value of people that knew what they were doing.

Just like in photography, I am not going to hold up my images to Lisa Holloway and say: See, just as good, no one can tell the difference.

However, you are proving one of my points with your response: photographers are partly responsible for the decline in their revenue. In my day job I have colleagues across the globe, and when we meet I bring my camera to photograph the cool cityscapes. Every now and again, I get asked for recommendations of people to photograph their families, I quietly look here on FM and pass along websites / names. I go by the images and the way they carry themselves here on the forum.



Jul 12, 2017 at 09:38 PM
walts.photo
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Everyone with a smartphone is a "photographer".

I value my amateur status. I'm not for sale.



Jul 12, 2017 at 10:41 PM
leethecam
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?






Well I truly believe it is about marketing and selling. Photogs had it easy for many years because the entry barrier to the profession was high. That had been erased with digital and phones. Now the hard part comes where you need to market and sell your services against the freeby's. If you can't do this you whine on the net and go out of business...maybe you should have not been in this business.



Ok, oh wise man... Here's a real world scenario that I've just had.

Offered work by a government dept but there is an amateur offering to do the same job for less than anyone could hire the basic kit for.

This amateur is not good. His images are technically poor, they lack any creativity.

The images are required for promotion of a lucrative event that generates a profit every year so there is budget to be had and it is a high profile event requiring specialist skills.

My potential client remarks that he's seen my work, had recommendations of me and says that I have a particular specialist skill in the field he needs covering. he also says that the amateur does not have any of these skills.

I am insured and the amateur is not - important in a public event don't you think? My potential client knows this and is aware of the fall-out if there was an issue. He is aware that I am fully covered in all respects.

I demonstrate that my turnaround times will be fast - very fast. Unlikely to get that from a guy know has a 9-5 job.

I even offer to reduce my rates by quite a bit to secure the job.

So... I'm better, I'm faster, I'm a proven entity, I have the skills for this job where the amateur does not, I am insured, (surely a requirement for a government job), and I pay my business taxes and can demonstrate a self employed status so not to raise any issues with the tax man.

The competition is not good, (proven by the very poor results I've seen from his efforts - and boy... they are bad...) he is not skilled in this field, he doesn't bring backups, if someone sues because they trip over his gear or gets bashed by his lens, then all hell will break loose because no insurance, and there's no proven track record.

The job is for a big event with a high public profile and the images are directly for promotion so they need to be excellent.

So tell me oh wise man - how would you have "marketed" yourself to get the job in this case.

Apart from cutting my costs so low that a person can't sustain a business model. (Sorry is that me whining again?)


Jul 12, 2017 at 10:45 PM
Daniel Smith
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


As one who has shot Sports on every level from NFL/NBA/MLB/F1 and Ind Cars to Tball kids in the park - all paid work, I saw the writing on the walls some years ago. Did not like it but reality is that "Good Enough" is what many settle for. Even Pro sports teams will do it at times.
After all, if you buy a camera you are a professional.
SI does not have Staff Photographers any longer.
Many newspapers do not have Staff Photographers any longer.

"Give the reporter a camera, they will get a picture" and you have "good enough" as the highest level in most cases. Mediocrity is not a problem for the Corporate managers as long as circulation and ads don't drop off fast.

When shooting High School amateur sports and selling images the Pro Sports Shooter reputation gave a leg up on competition at times. Same gear I shot John Elway with on Sunday I did JoeDoakes HS on Friday night and UofColorado on Saturday. HS - print sales after newspaper use. Sunday, shot one or two Pop Warner games in the morning before heading to the Stadium for the NFL game. Funny part was generally made more from selling prints from the Pop Warner game than from the NFL game. Learned early that anything sent to SI was held til they saw their own guys work - which had the effect of taking it off the market before the need was gone. Adjusted marketing accordingly.

Auto Focus, big fast glass and Guy With Camera all are just fine. Guy With Camera popping out 11x14 prints for $3 isn't. He doesn't care about or need to make a profit. Met two and had them in a seminar I was teaching where we went over the realities of marketing images. Sat down and worked out actual cost for prints based on expected sales per year. Turns out these guys lost more money the more prints they sold - taking into account insurance, replacement, repairs, mileage and cost to deliver prints. Yep, they are paying people to let them take pictures.

Watch "sports pro's" with the Digital Rebel bodies and cheapie zooms telling folks 'no need for big lenses' when the clients who get prints from both of us are saying "yours are so much better - but his cost 10%(or are FREE) of what you charge".

If it is a business, run it as a business. Know the costs and how much you have to charge, what the margins are and how you are going to put a percentage into IRA or savings or retirement and health insurance. If you don't you end up "paying people to let you take pictures".

As for newspapers? They go ever lower in pricing. Three I know have cut most freelancers off. "If they want pictures in the paper, they give them to us" is the Corporate attitude. Know a couple sports shooters who do give away images - they get $5 to $20 tops from the newspapers, no guarantee against space even when called up and asked to shoot a game. They consider the printed images as Advertising cost. Maybe it is helping, they sure don't elaborate on it. At that they are being aced out at times by "FREE" submissions from Guys With Cameras who are on the sidelines of major sporting events because they know someone.

Yep, a lot of ways to lose money in this just like a lot of businesses.



Jul 12, 2017 at 11:00 PM
rw11
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Daniel Smith wrote:
...
"Give the reporter a camera, they will get a picture" and you have "good enough" as the highest level in most cases. ...


and... when that reporter hits 40 and is not as pretty, but the salary increments are up there, she will be replaced by a 22 year old

experience and expertise has been devalued, yes



Jul 12, 2017 at 11:25 PM
chez
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?




Well I truly believe it is about marketing and selling. Photogs had it easy for many years because the entry barrier to the profession was high. That had been erased with digital and phones. Now the hard part comes where you need to market and sell your services against the freeby's. If you can't do this you whine on the net and go out of business...maybe you should have not been in this business.



Ok, oh wise man... Here's a real world scenario that I've just had.

Offered work by a government dept but there is an amateur offering to do the same job for less than anyone could hire the basic kit for.

This amateur is not good. His images are technically poor, they lack any creativity.

The images are required for promotion of a lucrative event that generates a profit every year so there is budget to be had and it is a high profile event requiring specialist skills.

My potential client remarks that he's seen my work, had recommendations of me and says that I have a particular specialist skill in the field he needs covering. he also says that the amateur does not have any of these skills.

I am insured and the amateur is not - important in a public event don't you think? My potential client knows this and is aware of the fall-out if there was an issue. He is aware that I am fully covered in all respects.

I demonstrate that my turnaround times will be fast - very fast. Unlikely to get that from a guy know has a 9-5 job.

I even offer to reduce my rates by quite a bit to secure the job.

So... I'm better, I'm faster, I'm a proven entity, I have the skills for this job where the amateur does not, I am insured, (surely a requirement for a government job), and I pay my business taxes and can demonstrate a self employed status so not to raise any issues with the tax man.

The competition is not good, (proven by the very poor results I've seen from his efforts - and boy... they are bad...) he is not skilled in this field, he doesn't bring backups, if someone sues because they trip over his gear or gets bashed by his lens, then all hell will break loose because no insurance, and there's no proven track record.

The job is for a big event with a high public profile and the images are directly for promotion so they need to be excellent.

So tell me oh wise man - how would you have "marketed" yourself to get the job in this case.

Apart from cutting my costs so low that a person can't sustain a business model. (Sorry is that me whining again?)


Maybe the job is not for you. Seems like my friends are fully booked for years out even when there are ankle biters out there doing weddings for peanuts. Maybe ones work is not as good as one believes it to be or one is truly playing in the market where the ankle biters play.




Jul 12, 2017 at 11:27 PM
c.d.embrey
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF A PRO

Someone who shoots Team Sports? A Craig's List Wedding Photographer. A Protrait Photographer who has a Garage Studio (after removing the cars from the studio).

Maybe someone like Joe McNally or Martin Schoeller? Juergen Teller? How about a local jack-of-all-trades who does stilted, overwrought photos that he considers art?



Jul 12, 2017 at 11:32 PM
leethecam
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?


Maybe the job is not for you. Seems like my friends are fully booked for years out even when there are ankle biters out there doing weddings for peanuts. Maybe ones work is not as good as one believes it to be or one is truly playing in the market where the ankle biters play.



So - no suggestions, other than you know some people who haven't been effected? Figures...

As to the quality of my work...?
Recently 2 industry awards.
Preferred UK photographer for Linkedin corporate portraits
On the books of Quinessentially, (look them up - they're VERY exclusive)
Trusted as sole photographer with several recent 500K Bar Mitzvahs and 14,000 photography budgets.
International client base
Published / magazine covers / national ad print campaigns
Shot all over the world - up to 100K projects

Yes I'm probably dreadful. No skills at all. Feel free to look through my website and tell me I'm not good enough. Then tell Sony, Allergan, UAE Embassy, IBM, HP, GSK, Merck Serono, Ogilvy, for whom I've photographed.

Of course you don't know which market I play in, and to be honest the issue purveys in most markets - big or small. Like most pros, we suffer feast or famine from time to time. But to understand that, you'd have to be a pro.


Jul 13, 2017 at 12:16 AM
chez
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Hobby photographers eroding value of professional work?




So - no suggestions, other than you know some people who haven't been effected? Figures...

As to the quality of my work...?
Recently 2 industry awards.
Preferred UK photographer for Linkedin corporate portraits
On the books of Quinessentially, (look them up - they're VERY exclusive)
Trusted as sole photographer with several recent 500K Bar Mitzvahs and 14,000 photography budgets.
International client base
Published / magazine covers / national ad print campaigns
Shot all over the world - up to 100K projects

Yes I'm probably dreadful. No skills at all. Feel free to look through my website and tell me I'm not good enough. Then tell Sony, Allergan, UAE Embassy,
...Show more

Well with all your accolades why are you worried about those ankle biters again? Surely your resume...if you know how to market and sell it should get you your prestigious jobs. Why are you competing in the mud?



Jul 13, 2017 at 12:27 AM
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