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"CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"
  
 
Colin F
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Over the years, I’ve had several people (artists) say to me: “I love that photo – can I paint it?”

While I imagine that most of you photographers would agree that if they are someone you know, and just making one for themselves for fun, then our response ought to be “sure, go ahead”, but for those people that we don’t know (via the internet for example), and who might have other intentions, I’ve come up with a more thorough reply. It might need to be softened a bit with some word-crafting, but this would be the gist of it:




Thanks for asking to paint one of my photos. As you likely know, it is indeed illegal to paint a photographer’s photo without permission, so I appreciate you asking.

Getting that photo required considerable effort, likely some travel, and the purchase of over $25,000 worth of camera gear, so my terms are as follows:

If you sell your paintings, we will need to discuss the size, quantity and the price that you will sell it for, and come to an arrangement for compensation.

If you plan on only painting only one for yourself, and not for sale, then you may, but our agreement is that you will paint two, and provide one to me.






I sense that a wide range of opinions are held on this, from loose to officious, but what do you think?


https://www.thoughtco.com/may-i-make-a-painting-of-a-photograph-2573673



.



Jul 05, 2017 at 04:49 PM
frdjohns
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


I have had a number of folks over the past few years ask to paint one of my photographs. To be honest, their attitude in their communication often determines for me if I will give permission. Some have offered me a commission (a small percent) on any sales made (although I've never actually received one), some have sent me photographs of their finished work so I can see it, and some I've allowed to simply paint the image and good luck to them.

On the other side, I have refused a number as well. One woman was quite upfront about feeling entitled to create "art" from my "picture", going on to explain to me how much effort, time, and skill, it took to create a painting while I "only had to push a button". I would not offer her a cup of water if she were on fire...

I usually try to say something similar to what you have written, although perhaps a bit softer in tone. I will usually explain that it is not really fair to someone else who paid me for an image if I just give it away to others.



Jul 05, 2017 at 05:46 PM
rw11
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


tell her you have bought a painting robot that will paint your "picture" and all you have to do is push a button


Jul 05, 2017 at 07:01 PM
Mikehit
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


If they are wanting to make a direct copy then I would agree with you. If they are wanting to use it as the basis for a derivative work then it gets more hazy.


Jul 05, 2017 at 09:12 PM
Arka
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Your approach seems fine but it also likely ensures that no one will paint from your photo. That's your call, of course, but asking a painter to paint two originals of a piece they aren't otherwise permitted to profit from is a pretty onerous condition.

I've received many requests like this and always grant them with few if any conditions. While such activity is arguably copyright infringement in many places, in certain others it would be a "reimagining" or "inspired work" to which infringement liability may not attach. So it's helpful to know where the erstwhile painter lives.

As someone who paints, draws, photographs, and practices intellectual property law (U.S.), I can think of many ways to paint from a photo-reference that would not infringe the photographer's copyright. Indeed, I know few painters (or sculptors) that reproduce photos verbatim. There have been a few well known cases on the subject, mostly involving appropriation artists who openly admitted to or were obviously engaged in verbatim copying. See, e.g., Rogers v. Koons, 960 F.2d 301 (2d Cir. 1992) (holding in favor of the photographer); Blanch v. Koons 467 F.3d 244 (2d Cir. 2006) (holding against the photographer); Cariou v. Prince, 714 F. 3d 694 (2d Cir. 2013) (remanding in favor of the painter). However, depending on the photo at issue and the nature of the finished painting, the ability to enforce a copyright claim against a painter working from one of your photos can be quite difficult in light of some of the muddled precedent in the United States, and variations in intellectual property laws throughout the world (unless of course you can get them to agree to your initial terms above or roll over in the face of a cease-and-desist letter). I personally have decided it isn't worth it, and take solace in the fact that someone out there thought my photo was inspiring enough to devote a few hours or more of their time to make a painting out of it. Call me a hippie, but that itself serves as its own reward for me.



Jul 05, 2017 at 09:51 PM
rw11
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


IP hippie ??


Jul 05, 2017 at 09:57 PM
Colin F
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Arka wrote:
I personally have decided it isn't worth it, and take solace in the fact that someone out there thought my photo was inspiring enough to devote a few hours or more of their time to make a painting out of it. Call me a hippie, but that itself serves as its own reward for me.


Good post, well said. While I generally agree with your latter scenario (as noted at the beginning of my post), you must agree that there are a good number of people who intend on selling their painted piece for often a considerable profit, and given the investment on the part of the photographer, why not demand some compensation, however small? Compensation is demanded for other uses of our work (say - a magazine ad), so wouldn't it logically follow that compensation is deserved for having it used for a painted piece if sold?

I mocked-up this graphic to sort of drive the point home:









On a similar note, Matt Granger did a video on this sort of thing:




Jul 05, 2017 at 10:07 PM
glort
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"



I have been asked several times over the years to paint my pictures and frankly, I never understood why.

Firstly the Pics were of things that anyone could have walked up to the same spot (some frequented by thousands of tourists a year) and seen the same thing and used that for their inspiration.

Secondly, they did show me the results and I'd have been hard pressed to tell it was from my photo if the print and painting had been side by side.

Personally I can't imagine anything being able to be painted with sufficient detail and similarity to any photo to be able to think it was some sort of copyright infringement. I'm not a painter, I can't draw a decent diagram and I have earned my full time living as a shooter with the exception of a few short breaks my entire working life. Does not lessen my appreciation and admiration that have a different artistic bent to myself and undoubtedly a lot more talent in being able to do it.

We can bitch and get on our high horses about our work and art and all the same crap that shooters were going on about 30 years ago getting all indignant but the TRUTH is, we are copying techniques and methods and skills of others in everything we do. Ever looked at post processing techniques or a picture you liked and wanted to produce the some look or effect? Do we not look at how to pose subjects the same as what someone else teaches us how to do or study lighting setups and reproduce those to give us the look in the pictures we want?
how is this any different to a painter wanting to reproduce a picture they invest their own perspective and outlook into?

I have been a wedding Photographer for well over 30+ years now. Never cease to be amused at how 99% of wedding shooters will go on about their creativity and being different and like they have come up with unique and original ideas, but rip off every other shooters work they like and then get pissy and say it's their style when some else does the same thing?

I won an award for a picture back in '95. It was a grab shot of a bride biting the grooms ear and them laughing. There was NOTHING like it I had ever seen. Not my skills or creative artistry or anything like that other than being real quick on the trigger. I put it in an advertisement in a bridal mag. 2 editions later ( because the next is closed when the previous one came out) there are no less than 3 Identical shots and 2 of them were done in the exact same and easily identifiable place. next edition there were no less than 7 grooms in danger of missing a lobe.
There were similar shots going round for the next 3 years with shooters using the pic and then extolling their originality and creativity. No possible doubt where it came from but I know what happens. Bride sees it in a mag, tears it out, takes it to local shooter and says I want a pic like this and of course Mr creative and worlds most original does it to keep client happy. Understandable. The difference is when you then reproduce that pic and claim how original and different you are to everyone else!

When that happens to people now, do they go round trying to sue claiming copyright etc? Maybe some would but I sure had better things to do, other than laugh.


To me, painters in their craft are taking something as inspiration and re creating it with their own skill, POV, techniques and artistic Vision. They have just as much creativity, learning and everything else invested as a photographer does, equipment aside.

Personally, rather than get all pissy and up myself about someone taking/ copying/ stealing/ infringing my copyright, I'm just damn flattered anyone would want to reproduce one of my pictures at all! Even more humbled they had the decency to ask when they could have done it and I would never have known.

I didn't build that city skyline or put that mountain there or build that old shed 100 years ago. I didn't pay for it to be built nor own the property it's on. Surely the owner has a claim to compensation when someone comes along and photographs it if they want to put it on a site to sell it. Obviously if the shooter gets some money or consideration from an artist that wants to paint it, the owner of the property would be due some of that for his investment in the property and the shed upon it.

Kinda puts the argument into perspective for me. If it's good for the Goose, it's good for the gander.


and given the investment on the part of the photographer

What about the investment in the things you photograph? Do you get permission to photograph the buildings, vehicles, land etc you feature on your site and offer for sale?
Do you pay the owners a royality when you make a sale?
Do you earn your living from photography?
How much of your income do you derive from the sales of your work and does that make it a hobby or business for tax purposes... which you also no doubt declare you picture sales income.

Looking at your site, I get the impression that this is a hobby not a career.
If that is indeed the case, the money you spend on equipment is by choice. Pretty sure no one holds a gun to your head to buy gear and if you are like the majority of Shooters, you probably buy the bulk of it for self serving reasons of indulgence and want, rather than need or technical requirement.

I'll bet you don't go calculating the cost of pictures you take for your own pleasure so why start going on about the cost of gear you have bought by your own choice for your own indulgence and desire to have it when someone wants to use a picture you took with it for inspiration for their own work?
If all the pictures you have are valuable to any degree, why not cash them in instead of have them languishing on your HDD and make yourself a potentially wealthy man?

I just bought the Mrs an expensive car. She gave some one she doesn't know at work a lift home in it the other night. I hope she didn't start going on about the worth of the thing and the cost of petrol and servicing and tyres and insurance and all that crap. Pretty sure she wouldn't have.

All this "My work is valuable" ego tripping is one thing when you are hired for a specific job you would not have done otherwise like a wedding or a product shot that takes you away from what you would have done otherwise. When it's something you shot because YOU wanted to do it and someone else wants to use it for even minor commercial use as a private person that they have to put their own considerable effort and skill into, that's a whole different thing to me.
Companies and corporations are one thing, work for hire another. Other artists like ourselves, well lets just say I try to give them a bit of the goodwill I'd appreciate myself.

I think I have well proven in this very rant, I'm a prize arsehole.
To me however, sending a reply like the one above, even in it's basic intent to someone whom took the time to ASK for permission to replicate your picture is a level of... mean spiritedness ( for want of a much stronger term that comes to mind) I wouldn't stoop to myself.

They could have easy just looked at the pic, painted it and whether for personal reasons or profit, your chances of finding out or even recognising it would be on par with winning a lottery you didn't buy a ticket in. ( Although I apparently win a few of them a week according to the Nigerian department of interior finance, revenues, Lottery's and Yak Husbandry).

It's all good and well to get full of our own importance and creative, artistic talent and value of the pictures we take for our own reasons, but I think it's more important to keep our feet on the ground, our egos in check and try to return the decency people have shown to us in the first place.

/rant.



Jul 06, 2017 at 03:08 AM
Colin F
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


glort wrote:
I have been asked several times over the years to paint my pictures and frankly, I never understood why. Firstly the pics were of things that anyone could have walked up to the same spot (some frequented by thousands of tourists a year) and seen the same thing and used that for their inspiration.


Yes, but I'm not sure why you picked an example which was not what I was referring to. Most people don't have the ability to take really good bird shots for example, so when they see one, they are quite impressed, and the artists sometimes like to use it to copy for a painting.



Secondly, they did show me the results and I'd have been hard pressed to tell it was from my photo if the print and painting had been side by side.

Again, that's not what I'm talking about. Many (most?) artists use a grid system and literally copy the photograph. My friend who has been a very accomplished artist for decades told me that this is how it's done the vast majority of the time. But yes, one does enter a gray zone when the painting is very different from the referenced photo.




Personally I can't imagine anything being able to be painted with sufficient detail and similarity to any photo to be able to think it was some sort of copyright infringement.

If you could imagine it, would that change your feeling about it? Perhaps read the web link I offered at the bottom of my first post on this thread. Copyright laws were written for good reasons, not because I'm on any kind of high horse.




We can bitch and get on our high horses about our work and art and all the same crap that shooters were going on about 30 years ago getting all indignant but the TRUTH is, we are copying techniques and methods and skills of others in everything we do. Ever looked at post processing techniques or a picture you liked and wanted to produce the some look or effect? Do we not look at how to pose subjects the same as what someone else teaches us how to do or study lighting setups and reproduce those to give us the look...Show more

It's different in that you're speaking about a technique, not copying the actual image.




...The difference is when you then reproduce that pic and claim how original and different you are to everyone else!

I think you're way off on a tangent, assuming things that just aren't there. Again, it isn't about claiming that any given photo is some mind-blowing masterpiece never before imagined, it's merely protecting one's images from being "copied" and then sold for profit with no compensation to the photo-taker.




To me, painters in their craft are taking something as inspiration and recreating it with their own skill, POV, techniques and artistic vision. They have just as much creativity, learning and everything else invested as a photographer does, equipment aside.

Then what do they need the photo for? And as the web link I offered mentioned: "...artists who would scream if someone copied their paintings, don’t hesitate to make a painting of someone else’s photo, with no thought to the creator’s rights."






Personally, rather than get all pissy and up myself about someone taking/ copying/ stealing/ infringing my copyright, I'm just damn flattered anyone would want to reproduce one of my pictures at all!

Not sure why you're twisting it into being "pissy" or arrogant. It's about the law, and how it applies to us as photographers.




Even more humbled they had the decency to ask when they could have done it and I would never have known.

I'm not sure how that's relevant.


I didn't build that city skyline or put that mountain there or build that old shed 100 years ago. I didn't pay for it to be built nor own the property it's on. Surely the owner has a claim to compensation when someone comes along and photographs it if they want to put it on a site to sell it. Obviously if the shooter gets some money or consideration from an artist that wants to paint it, the owner of the property would be due some of that for his investment in the property and the shed upon it. Kinda puts...Show more

Do you really think that?



Do you earn your living from photography?
How much of your income do you derive from the sales of your work and does that make it a hobby or business for tax purposes... which you also no doubt declare your picture sales income.


While this is completely irrelevant, I do declare any sales as income, under the umbrella of my main (slightly related) business.



Looking at your site, I get the impression that this is a hobby not a career.

Correct. I do sell some stuff, but it's not my main source of income. As my wife has been sick for seven years, it helps fill the gaps with a little supplemental income.




If that is indeed the case, the money you spend on equipment is by choice. Pretty sure no one holds a gun to your head to buy gear...

Again, this is completely irrelevant.



...and if you are like the majority of shooters, you probably buy the bulk of it for self-serving reasons of indulgence and want, rather than need or technical requirement.

That's quite an impoverished viewpoint. Why not view it as passion or desire to be as good as possible, rather than in such a negative light?



I'll bet you don't go calculating the cost of pictures you take for your own pleasure so why start going on about the cost of gear you have bought by your own choice for your own indulgence and desire to have it when someone wants to use a picture you took with it for inspiration for their own work?

That was spelled out in the OP, but you seem to be on an emotional rant. I'm speaking about the artist who wishes to use a photog's image for resale and profit, so some small level of compensation seems reasonable - no?





I think I have well proven in this very rant, I'm a prize arsehole.
To me however, sending a reply like the one above, even in it's basic intent to someone whom took the time to ASK for permission to replicate your picture is a level of... mean spiritedness ( for want of a much stronger term that comes to mind) I wouldn't stoop to myself.


So, anyone who claims what is their legal right on copyright issues is being mean-spirited? I respectfully disagree.




They could have easy just looked at the pic, painted it and whether for personal reasons or profit, your chances of finding out or even recognizing it would be on par with winning a lottery you didn't buy a ticket in.

Yes, but do you apply that reasoning to other laws? Do you speed down the road at 3x the limit, and say to the officer: "Hey, there's a chance I might not have got caught, so it's all good."




It's all good and well to get full of our own importance and creative, artistic talent and value of the pictures we take for our own reasons, but I think it's more important to keep our feet on the ground, our egos in check and try to return the decency people have shown to us in the first place.

No, no, no. You're reading in arrogance when it simply isn't there (on my part anyway). I'm fully aware of my place in the realm of photography; I know that there are legions who have forgotten more than I'll ever know, and that I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. But whether one is at the pinnacle or an absolute beginner is irrelevant to the main point of copyright.




Jul 06, 2017 at 04:28 AM
rw11
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


re: a city skyline or a mountain or an old shed

If the above can be photographed from a public place, the owner has NO claim to compensation when someone comes along and photographs it if they want to put it on a site to sell it.

What country do you live in where mere ownership of these things confers such a right?



Jul 06, 2017 at 04:33 AM
 

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Mikehit
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Colin F wrote:
I mocked-up this graphic to sort of drive the point home:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/Paddywacked/Fred%20Miranda/Cost%20of%20Photography_zpsurrkpmdo.jpg



I like it



Jul 06, 2017 at 07:56 AM
Mikehit
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Colin - I can see the points of both glort and yourself and I think this is law versus what others would term 'a real world view' built around the idea that if they copied it without permission what are you going to do about it. Or is it 'I know they shouldn't but I can't be bothered to challenge. I know some will say this is the lax attitude that encourages internet piracy at all levels but that is a personal approach that in no way invalidates the law.

Colin F wrote:
Again, that's not what I'm talking about. Many (most?) artists use a grid system and literally copy the photograph. My friend who has been a very accomplished artist for decades told me that this is how it's done the vast majority of the time. But yes, one does enter a gray zone when the painting is very different from the referenced photo.



For me, the issue here is that you have no idea what they were going to do with it because (as I understand it from you OP) you launched straight into a reason why they were breaking the law. You automatically assumed they were going to do a verbatim copy.
Many years ago I saw a similar thread elsewhere where the photographer asked the artist to send him a sample of their work and he liked the way they interpreted the photos. So much so he asked them to do two copies and paid them for the second one!




Jul 06, 2017 at 08:07 AM
Mike Veltri
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Here is a real life letter emailed to me on my Flickr site that shows the frustration of an artist trying to obtain reference material.



Dear Mike
Would you be prepared to discuss licensing an occasional photo for me to use as artistic reference? I'm asking delicately because I've recently had some really nasty answers from professional photographers, so I'm feeling a little 'burned' at the edges over this.
I make glass birds (there are some on my Flickr account if you are curious). I'm an ornithologist myself, so I like to be very precise with art; which means photo references may be recognisable in a finished piece (not always, and occasionally there's a strong accidental resemblance when I've used several references). Occasionally I find a photo that is so gorgeous I want to make a detailed glass version - and one of yours (a Shoveler taking off) has lit that spark.
So could we discuss this? I obviously cannot use your photo without your permission. I have no intention of sharing or otherwise infringing your ownership, and would give credit should the piece go well and be made public (or sell). It would involve printing, sketch-modifying and creating a pattern for glass cutting, and using the photo as colour reference; a week or so of work plus lots of materials to make the finished piece - I say this because it's probably not a common license request, and you need to understand what I'm trying to do.
Would you be interested? If you're a professional photographer you may already have a scale of license fees for derivative work? Please do let me know. My direct mail is xxxxxx DOT com (trying to avoid email harvesters here). I look forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
Rachel

I changed her email address to xxxxx, but this woman did not want to take "no I am not interested" for an answer. But I did not give her the shpeall about me trekking through the mosquito invested woods to get the images and the high cost of my expensive gear.
I was polite and told her that I do sell image to a wildlife magazine and some public sales to individuals and was really not interested. Here is another comment to me, that she made.

Ok, thanks Mike. And thank you for being so polite!
It does seem a little odd that a professional photographer (I name no names!) will sell publication rights to images - or at least his website says he will - but won't sell reference rights to an artist. Can you give me a perspective on that? I'm not trying to persuade you, but am trying to understand the difference to the image owner.
Thanks again
XXX

At least this woman was honest and wanted to purchase the image rather that steal it for a reference as so many do.


I also have other request for free images all the time, but normally don't even bother to answer those requests. I do believe in copyright laws, and I do know of someone with the means that will sue you if you use his images.

Take a look on Pinterest, people there steal images all the time to post there. Just do a search on something like Owls and you may be surprised to find one of your images posted there.

If I worried about people stealing my images, I would not post anything on the net. lol



Jul 06, 2017 at 09:30 AM
Mikehit
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


I doubt she even needed permission to do a sculpture based on a photo. Sometimes I wonder if it somewhat disingenuous of the photographer to pretend they do.




Jul 06, 2017 at 01:52 PM
jecottrell
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Colin F wrote:
Not sure why you're twisting it into being "pissy" or arrogant.


The Internet written word doesn't always translate into the same meaning or feeling that was intended. If I were to receive the following responses to a sincere and honest attempt to do the right thing, I'd interpret it as pissy and arrogant.


Colin F wrote:
Thanks for asking to paint one of my photos. As you likely know, it is indeed illegal to paint a photographer’s photo without permission, so I appreciate you asking.

Getting that photo required considerable effort, likely some travel, and the purchase of over $25,000 worth of camera gear, so my terms are as follows:

If you sell your paintings, we will need to discuss the size, quantity and the price that you will sell it for, and come to an arrangement for compensation.

If you plan on only painting only one for yourself, and not for sale, then you may, but our

...Show more


Colin F wrote:
I mocked-up this graphic to sort of drive the point home:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/Paddywacked/Fred%20Miranda/Cost%20of%20Photography_zpsurrkpmdo.jpg










Jul 06, 2017 at 02:07 PM
Colin F
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


jecottrell wrote:
The Internet written word doesn't always translate into the same meaning or feeling that was intended. If I were to receive the following responses to a sincere and honest attempt to do the right thing, I'd interpret it as pissy and arrogant.


Which is why I said: "It might need to be softened a bit with some word-crafting, but this would be the gist of it:"






Jul 06, 2017 at 02:32 PM
dakel
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


I took the liberty of re-wording it as an exercise to test my re-wording skills. Just for fun.


Thanks for asking to paint one of my photos. I appreciate you making the effort to ask because I know often enough, people don't ask, and just assume it's okay. I often wonder if they even know that it is illegal to paint a photographer’s photo without permission?

Regarding the photo in question, capturing it required considerable effort, likely some travel, and the purchase of over $25,000 worth of camera gear, so my terms are as follows:

If you sell your painting/s, we will need to come to an arrangement for compensation for the use of my photo as reference. Some factors that could affect the level of compensation would be the size of the art work, the number of copies to be made and the price that you actually sell it for.

If you plan on only painting only one for yourself, and not for sale, then you may use my photo.



Jul 06, 2017 at 06:05 PM
dmcphoto
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Yet another rewording reflecting what I always do in these cases. Most (good) paintings require a tremendous amount of time, effort, and talent. They are one of a kind and commonly have 4-digit price tags, though prices vary significantly. That's actually not much considering it takes a week to a few months to make one piece. Most painters who sell their work also sell prints at far lower prices. It depends on the individual circumstance, but I usually charge only a nominal fee unless the painter is fairly accomplished and successful. I can't imagine any painter making a second nearly identical original for anyone as part of the compensation for a reference image.
----
Thanks for your interest in my work. I appreciate your asking permission to make a painting from my photograph. I am sure many people do not ask such permission even though it violates U.S. and international copyright laws.

If you plan making only one painting from this photograph for yourself, and will not offer it or prints made from it for sale, then you may use my photograph at no charge.

Because capturing the photograph in question required considerable effort, travel, and the over $XX,000 in camera gear, it is my policy to require compensation for any commercial use. If your work is made for sale please provide the selling price and the selling price of any prints made from it. With that information I can reply with the compensation required.

Thanks again for your interest.
---
For odder things like sculptures just substitute "derivative work" for "painting" and "copies" for "prints".



Jul 06, 2017 at 07:18 PM
Colin F
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


dmcphoto wrote:
I can't imagine any painter making a second nearly identical original for anyone as part of the compensation for a reference image.


That wasn't really my idea, the reason I mentioned it is that one artist made that as her offer, and it seemed reasonable.




Jul 06, 2017 at 07:22 PM
glort
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · "CAN I PAINT YOUR PHOTO?"


Most people don't have the ability to take really good bird shots for example, so when they see one, they are quite impressed, and the artists sometimes like to use it to copy for a painting.

Good example.

Tell me so I understand, what you or anyone else with a camera can do to take a picture of a bird so it is so unique, different and original as to make the likeness when painted identifiable as coming directly or even likely from your Photograph?

Unless the bird is some very rare breed, I'm sure that there are thousands of pictures taken of them. Can you be sure that the photograph you took is not so similar to others taken before that some other shooter could not accuse you of copying their picture?

Firstly I'll bet you couldn't, 2nd I'll bet any defense you could offer would arguments a painter could use as well.



Yes, but do you apply that reasoning to other laws? Do you speed down the road at 3x the limit, and say to the officer: "Hey, there's a chance I might not have got caught, so it's all good."


You are missing the point.
They DIDN'T try to get away with anything when there was a very good chance they could have they DID the right thing in asking, yet you are saying you would send them a letter that most reasonable people would take as being Pissy, arrogant, mean spirited or egotistical, no matter how you say you may not have intended it.

Your View and mine are clearly Different. When people try to do the right thing by me, I try to show the same respect. If they try and screw me over, then I can be the biggest, lowest filthiest mongeral they ever came across. Despite my generaly aggro disposition I prefer to avoid that because helping someone gives me the warm and fuzzies which is better for my ego and certainly my blood pressure.

I cant get my head around your POV and I am sincerely trying. I'm not playing tiddly winks of a weekend for fun and enjoyment when I go taking pics so it's not like earning money from pictures doesn't matter to me. Unlike the majority of people here, it's what I live on. I have had pictures used without permission and been burned so it's not like I have somehow escaped it or the feelings that brings. I'm just buggered if I can see how something like your example of a photo of a bird ( or anything else) can be so unique and different so as one could claim Copyright over a painting done from it?

Maybe you could help me understand. How about you show us a picture of a Bird you have taken, let me know what it is and when you took it and I'll see if I can find another one like it taken before or if it is so unique that any painting from it would have to come from that very picture?

I googled some Bird breeds to see if my thinking was off. It showed my thinking was more accurate than I gave credit for. For any bird breed I googled, and only a few because I am not knowledgeable in birds, there were SO many pictures that were virtually identical. I realise this is because certain breeds have certain behavior in the way they hold themselves, their markings, body shapes and characteristics. The main difference in many of the pics was the twig or branch they were standing on and I'd imagine most artists could change that easily.

One breed I looked at was Eagles and pretty much every 2nd picture ( and one row of 6 across) were images of the wings/ splayed fanned like many others with the feet and claws out with the animal being in essentially the same position. I'll bet there are pictures in archives going back to the beginning of photography that are similar because it's a " Peak action" look of that Bird. Many of the shots are against clear blue sky.
I'll guarantee that if you tried arguing your picture was so unique that a copyright infringement had been made by an artist copying it, You'd pretty much get laughed out of court and the artist having had suitable motivation, could produce 50 Images taken before yours to show it was you in fact ripping off someone elses picture.
How you would prove it was YOUR picture they copied as against the thousands out there they could probably produce as a defense is beyond what I could conceive.

As well defending your legal rights, there is also the small matter of proving them beyond reasonable doubt in court. Even in the Sue S of A, bringing a case does not guarantee a win but there is a certainty of significant $$, time and frustration investment.

One of the takeaways I get from this is that Artists seem to be a lot more professional and respectful to shooter's than shooter's are to artists.

To all Shooters that want to cry about how much they have spent or gear or the hours they have spent learning or reading about taking pics, Boo bloody Hoo!
You spent $25K ? on gear. I'm sorry you couldn't an expensive pastime.
Whinge about what you spent on gear to mates of mine that spent $50K
+ on their custom car and every spare moment for years working on it after the overtime they put in on their day job to pay for it.

Tell it to my friend who does Dressage. $20k for the horse float, 10K in the saddles and gear, 50K for the truck she tows the float with, $7K for the horse she rides, more than I want to think about a year in feed, vet's, farrier, Fuel to go around all over the state, entry fees and so on. Tell these people about how much you spent on your camera gear for the same reasons they spent so much more.
BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO.

No one else made you or held a gun to your head, you did it for your reasons same as anyone else so stop whining about it like spoiled children. It's a baseless and irrelevant argument and no one gives a shit.

Same as the " I had to do this and suffer that hardship to get that picture and.... "
Really? So was that your choice or was that guy with the gun chasing you and you did it to get away from him and save your life?
No one cares. It's not a validation of anything no matter what some talking heads on the net or in seminars that are better at talking then actually doing, tell you. You did it because YOU wanted to.
End of story, grow up and stop sooking OR, if it is such a terrible hardship and worry to you, stop doing it and stay home and do something less stressful like stamp collecting or take up knitting or something else that won't upset you as much.

I'm usually the mean spirited, don't loose and opportunity to make a buck, gun ho bastard when it comes to these " Charitable" decisions but when I find myself on the other side of the fence like this, It really makes me wonder about the people whom are less charitable than I am.

Here's my likely or similar reply when asked before to an artist that wants to paint one of my attempts at art or otherwise......

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your Message.

I appreciate you getting in contact with me about my picture you want to paint and taking the time to ask for permission. I'm very flattered you should want to use one of my pictures for inspiration and would be more than happy for you to put your own skill and inspiration into recreating it.
Would you mind sending me a pic of your finished work so I can see how it turned out when you are done?

If there is anything else you are particularly looking for, let me know and I'll see what I have and I'll put them up on a folder on my site for you to see.

Thanks,

glort.


One other thing.....

To those that feel entitled to compensation, how much do you think is a fair thing?
Would you ask $50? $100?

If you are so tight arsed and mean spirited to get all aggro over $50 or 100 bux, I feel sorry for you, sincerely.
If a pissy amount like that is the difference between you feeling validated and feeling ripped off or whatever, you must have a pretty shit life. I have very little care whether I see tomorrow or not but if I get to the point that getting $100 out of someone, especially someone with a creative outlook like myself whether they are going to profit or not makes the difference between my having to get money to feel respected or not, Seriously I'll know I'm not worthy to be here anymore.

In my life and what I have been though, there's way too much more to be worried bout than trying to screw some piddling about out of someone that has the decency to ask me if they can use one of my pictures for inspiration to create some art from.



Jul 07, 2017 at 02:51 AM
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