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Archive 2017 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II

  
 
bootster
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p.68 #1 · p.68 #1 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


DSLR's are the top of the line, other than medium format. All of my facts come from DSLR sales, AKA top of the line/higher end.


Jul 26, 2017 at 06:42 PM
Lauchlan Toal
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p.68 #2 · p.68 #2 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


bootster wrote:
It seems like Nikon has a great showing when it comes to the best selling, meaning the ones people buy, and consequently use, the most. I was pretty amazed to see Nikon putting up a good showing. It was 5 Canon and 5 Nikon in the top 10 most purchased/used cameras. I was under the impression Nikon was in financial trouble, as they have been changing their game towards smaller cameras lately I understand.


Yeah, if you check Amazon's figures it tells a different story, but how many people buy DSLRs from Amazon? Usually enthusiasts and pros tend to buy from dedicated camera stores, leaving Amazon for accessories. So Nikon and Canon are definitely both still putting out impressive sales figures, even if the camera industry has shrunk and become more competitive.

And I agree - while the 6D really should have been better in my opinion, it's the cheapest new full frame camera Canon offers so it'll hit those top 10 rankings in no time. People are still taking great shots with the 5D and D700 too, so it's not like the 6DII will be unusable for anyone.

Still bothers me that they're putting new sensor tech in all their other cameras but not this one, but if you need a Canon camera and can't afford the 5DIV I guess you don't have many options.



Jul 26, 2017 at 06:47 PM
Dlee13
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p.68 #3 · p.68 #3 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


I got my 6D2 and I'm in love with it!

So in my brief time so far playing with the camera, here's what I found:

Build - being that it's almost identical to the 6D it has a real good solid feel. After 3 weeks of only using my M5, it honestly feel good to once again experience that big solid feel of a DSLR The articulatung screen is really nice. At first I was a bit disappointed when I read it was only 1.04 million dots unlike my M5 but they have definitely improved the quality of it and I can see the difference compared to my old 6D.

Autofocus - The difference is truly day and night with the outter points. I always found them to be too unreliable on my 6D but that definitely isn't the case with the Mark II. I actually find myself overwhelmed with so many AF points to choose from. I'm personally used to just choosing a single point I feel like that's a waste with all those beautiful AF points to choose from. I find the AF to be very fast and accurate too, even with the horrible lighting inside my house.

Shutter - This is obviously something most people wouldn't mention but the second I took the first shot I could hear the difference. It may be a bit louder than the 6D but I like the sound to it, you can really tell it's made for the higher FPS.

IQ - Now I haven't had any time to shoot anything proper (you can thank my 10 hour shift today) but I was quite impressed with what I seen. I didn't bother trying to underexpose then pull up in post since I was working with limited light in my apartment and if that was a real world scenario, I would make sure to nail the exposure (in daylight would be a much better situation to try this). I was mostly using the body at ISO 1000 and up and I was impressed with how it handed the noise. I didn't try anything crazy like 40,000 though. One shot I quickly took of my girlfriend was at ISO 1000 (we get up real early for work when the sun still isn't up) and there was some noise in the OOF areas but on her face the detail was really impressive, almost like I was shooting ISO 640 max. In all honesty I'm not the type to spot a huge difference since IMO the lens you use would have a greater effect than the body so when reviewing and playing with the files in LR I felt like I was using my 6D or M5.

Some quick things to note.

- Although it doesn't affect the RAW images, the picture style was set to auto and it did not look good in the previews. It's good to set up the picture styles before doing anything and all the other small settings like high exposure NR which can give you a bad impression if you're going off what you see on the back of the camera.

- Just like the 5D4, if you leave all the lens correct settings on enabled, then you will get the black circle with third part lenses. I had to turn off everything but CA correction for my Sigma 85mm to stop having the crop circles

- Most of my lenses needed AFMA on my 6D so I was holding off on judging certain aspects until I could dial in the right value for each lens.



Jul 26, 2017 at 06:50 PM
bootster
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p.68 #4 · p.68 #4 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Dlee13 wrote:
I got my 6D2 and I'm in love with it!

So in my brief time so far playing with the camera, here's what I found:

Build - being that it's almost identical to the 6D it has a real good solid feel. After 3 weeks of only using my M5, it honestly feel good to once again experience that big solid feel of a DSLR The articulatung screen is really nice. At first I was a bit disappointed when I read it was only 1.04 million dots unlike my M5 but they have definitely improved the quality of it and I can
...Show more

Now we're getting down to the meat and potatoes of the discussion. Those are promising signs there. Keep us updated, as I haven't seen any movement on my end. I am getting mine from B&H. I don't have a local camera shop, so I'm stuck with B&H or Costco, and it's no telling when Costco gets them, but I can almost guarantee that they will sell kits if they sell them at all.



Jul 26, 2017 at 06:56 PM
bootster
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p.68 #5 · p.68 #5 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Lauchlan Toal wrote:
Yeah, if you check Amazon's figures it tells a different story, but how many people buy DSLRs from Amazon? Usually enthusiasts and pros tend to buy from dedicated camera stores, leaving Amazon for accessories. So Nikon and Canon are definitely both still putting out impressive sales figures, even if the camera industry has shrunk and become more competitive.

And I agree - while the 6D really should have been better in my opinion, it's the cheapest new full frame camera Canon offers so it'll hit those top 10 rankings in no time. People are still taking great shots with the
...Show more


All three sites that I linked to came from independent sources, not Amazon. The sales figures of DSLR's is what I sited, and I limited the search to one month, so they are current. I didn't think I'd see that many Nikons on the top, but they outdid Canon by a mile it seemed. The Pentax's were down the list but they were about the only other brand in the top listings. They even snuck a medium format in one of the lists. One of the sites stuck in some cost limiting list there, so I don't think that one counts as much. I know Sony are working their way up, and it is gaining favor as a brand with some photographers, but the bulk of the sales are still the two giants. Landscape photographers may well be gravitating towards Sony, but to say that "pretty much everyone" is a fallacy. Canon, like them or not, are still selling to landscape photographers, and will continue to do so for quite some time, regardless of the bite Sony takes out of the market.

I'm all for competition, and the best thing for the industry is to get more players in the game. I'm not going to start an Apple/Microsoft debate here but to mention that the laptop world was all Apple until a few years ago, and now the competition is fierce, and it's making it better for us, the consumer. If Sony puts the pressure on Canikon, that's a good thing.



Jul 26, 2017 at 07:13 PM
Dlee13
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p.68 #6 · p.68 #6 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


bootster wrote:
Now we're getting down to the meat and potatoes of the discussion. Those are promising signs there. Keep us updated, as I haven't seen any movement on my end. I am getting mine from B&H. I don't have a local camera shop, so I'm stuck with B&H or Costco, and it's no telling when Costco gets them, but I can almost guarantee that they will sell kits if they sell them at all.


Thanks I will! I finish work at a more reasonable time tomorrow so plan to walk home through the Sydney CBD and try do some street shots as I go around, will probably already be dark by then though.



Jul 26, 2017 at 07:29 PM
RustyBug
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p.68 #7 · p.68 #7 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Dlee13 wrote:
I got my 6D2 and I'm in love with it!

So in my brief time so far playing with the camera, here's what I found:

Build - being that it's almost identical to the 6D it has a real good solid feel. After 3 weeks of only using my M5, it honestly feel good to once again experience that big solid feel of a DSLR The articulatung screen is really nice. At first I was a bit disappointed when I read it was only 1.04 million dots unlike my M5 but they have definitely improved the quality of it and I can
...Show more

Congrats on the new rig ... pics man, pics.

Bring on the pics (start a new thread maybe).



Jul 26, 2017 at 07:33 PM
garyvot
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p.68 #8 · p.68 #8 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


RustyBug wrote:
Congrats on the new rig ... pics man, pics.

Bring on the pics (start a new thread maybe).


Yeah good idea..., we'll need an official 6D Mark II image thread for sure.



Jul 26, 2017 at 07:59 PM
Ralph Conway
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p.68 #9 · p.68 #9 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Dlee13 wrote:
I got my 6D2 and I'm in love with it!

So in my brief time so far playing with the camera, here's what I found:





Congratulation. Have a great time in checking it out and keep us informed. Yes, in posting pics please.

Conny



Jul 27, 2017 at 01:40 AM
Mikehit
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p.68 #10 · p.68 #10 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


RobDickinson wrote:
In the landscape world pretty much everyone has left canon bodies. Including fred himself on here..



WOW! That'a brave statement. Any evidence?



Jul 27, 2017 at 02:26 AM
RobDickinson
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p.68 #11 · p.68 #11 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


What about Fred or 'everybody'?

I know an awful lot of landscape shooters very few of which are still shooting canon bodies.



Jul 27, 2017 at 02:39 AM
photografiero
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p.68 #12 · p.68 #12 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Dlee13 wrote:
I got my 6D2 and I'm in love with it!


Bravo!
Now ... would it be possible to take a couple of photos in "bad light", some underexposed and some in full sun with shadows ... and put the raw files somewhere to be downloaded?
That will give us some material to work with!
Thank you!



Jul 27, 2017 at 03:00 AM
RobDickinson
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p.68 #13 · p.68 #13 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


remember to shoot a brick wall and lens cap


Jul 27, 2017 at 03:11 AM
garydavidjones
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p.68 #14 · p.68 #14 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II



Links are to ratings,not sales
bootster wrote:
It seems like Nikon has a great showing when it comes to the best selling, meaning the ones people buy, and consequently use, the most. I was pretty amazed to see Nikon putting up a good showing. It was 5 Canon and 5 Nikon in the top 10 most purchased/used cameras. I was under the impression Nikon was in financial trouble, as they have been changing their game towards smaller cameras lately I understand. I have checked a bunch of different sites of the best selling documented DSLR's and it looks like it's all Canikon except for a few stray
...Show more



Jul 27, 2017 at 05:18 AM
charlyw
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p.68 #15 · p.68 #15 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Dlee13 wrote:
I had to turn off everything but CA correction for my Sigma 85mm to stop having the crop circles


And you should also disable CA correction as the lens clearly is falsely identified by the camera and thus will apply false amounts of CS correction...




Jul 27, 2017 at 05:27 AM
Ubtree
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p.68 #16 · p.68 #16 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


I wonder whether some of the issues regarding Canon sensors (highlighted by the disappointing 6D MkII’s DR) might be due to manufacturing reject levels for sensors. I am not an expert in sensor manufacture, and no doubt those with more knowledge will be able to correct and add to the following.

Sensor costs – ignoring failure rates
It is reasonable to assume that, ignoring failure rates, the cost of producing a sensor is broadly directly proportional to its area. If so, you would expect the cost of a FF sensor to be 2.59x that of an APS-C sensor.

Failure rates
When they are manufactured, a proportion of sensors will inevitably be rejected by QC. If, for example, a 10mm x 10mm sensor has a 10% failure rate, the probability that it will pass the QC check is 90%. Each half of a 10mm x 20mm sensor produced in the same way would have an 90% probability of passing, and the chances of both sides passing would be 90% x 90% ie. 81%. Therefore the failure rate would be 19%.

On this basis, the general formula for the failure rate is:
F = 1-(1-f)^(A/a)
where f is the failure rate of a sensor of area a, and F is the failure rate of a sensor of area A.

Implications
I am going to assume that an APS-C sensor would cost $100 to produce, if there were no QC rejects (ie. 100% success rate). (I don’t know how accurate this guess is, but it should be good enough to illustrate my point.)

An FF sensor is 2.59x the size of an APS-C sensor, and therefore would cost $259 to produce, if there were no QC rejects.

We can only guess at the manufacturing failure rates – they will depend on the manufacturing process and how well it is controlled. But the following gives cost of APS-C and FF sensors after allowing QC rejects, and the FF failure rates, based on the above assumptions, for different

APS-C failure rate……APS-C sensor cost…....…....FF sensor cost………....FF failure rate
..........5%........................$105………………..…………...$296………………………….12%
........10%........................$111……………………………….$340………………………….24%
........15%........................$118……………………………….$395………………………….34%
........20%........................$125……………………………….$462………………………….44%
........25%........................$133……………………………….$546………………………….53%
........30%........................$143……………………………….$652………………………….60%
........35%........................$154……………………………….$790………………………….67%

FF sensors are much more difficult / expensive to make. And if the failure rates are not well controlled, there are serious consequences.

Suppose Manufacturer S had put in the effort and money to get to grips with their manufacturing process, such that their failure rate (for APS-C sized sensors) was only 10%, whereas Manufacturer C had not done so, and their corresponding failure rate was 30%:

    It would make little difference to the APS-C sensor: compared with Manufacturer S’s cost of $111, Manufacturer C would have a price penalty of only $32.

    The effect on the FF sensor would be huge: compared with Manufacturer S’s cost of $340, Manufacturer C’s would have a price penalty of $312.

Conclusion
If Canon did not got its manufacturing failure rates under control for its latest technology sensors, it could still use the new technology for its APS-C cameras (since the cost penalty is small), and could still use the new technology for its premium FF cameras (eg. 5D MkIV), since there would be enough margin in the product to absorb the cost penalty. But it wouldn’t be able to afford to use the latest technology for a budget FF camera (such as the 6D MkII). Does this explain the mystery of the 6D MkII sensor?

12 years ago, Canon was at the forefront of FF sensor technology. But perhaps it hasn’t been willing / able to make the investments needed to compete with manufacturers whose production isn’t confined to inhouse needs.



Jul 27, 2017 at 06:20 AM
RustyBug
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p.68 #17 · p.68 #17 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


As a reliability engineer in manufacturing, I appreciate your thought process. But, I doubt that the margin of failure rate would be sufficient to sway the decision regarding the sensor to be used. I get the point of QC, passing / failing ... BUT, if the inherent failure / scrap rate in the manufacturing process is sufficient to sway the decision to use it in the 6D2 ... we'd likely be seeing problems in the 5D4, 80D, 1DX2 that either "slip by" QC, or manifest themselves as problems "down the road".

In theory, QC is perfect to not allow anything out the door that doesn't pass muster, but my experience has been that when a scrap rate is high enough to influence decision making such as is suggested, the amount of problems inherent to the manufacturing process reveals itself in customer complaints, despite QC catching it at the point of inspection ... i.e. loose is loose, tight is tight.

Rather, if I were to attribute it to the manufacturing process decision, I might theorize that the amount of capacity / availability for the two different lines is significantly different (i.e. 30% capacity utilization vs. 99% capacity utilization). That, or the cost (capital + overhead / ROI) is too skinny a margin (kinda your point with the failure rates, iiuc) to hit a given price point, and still retain the "requisite" ROI as prescribed by the bean counters extraordinaire.

But, even with that ... an extra $50 or $100 (on par with original 6D release) would be sufficient to retain the ROI (or failure rate costs) for the sensor portion of the camera. Where I see the cost being rather different is in the redesign of the body, etc. and that may have influenced the decision to use a different line, etc.

However ... even with all that potentially in play. I don't think that was the reason why Canon chose to do as they did. I think it has more to do with the perspective that the target market (i.e. entry level FF) being less concerned about ISO invariance, thus they could go quid pro quo with regard to other aspects.

Likely ... we'll never know what the truth is behind their decision. That said, the only thing left for me is to get it in my hands and see if it fits my objectives (which I think it will very nicely) at the ability to produce excellent images as long as I feed it the requisite amount of light / ISO relationship appropriate to a given EV level. If it does that well (which is different from starving & lifting), I'll be pleased with it ... even if it doesn't do the ISO invariance trick very well.

Kinda like driving an V-8 pickup without the variable timing and a turbo charger to tweak out its performance. It's still got plenty of HP for me to get my work done, even if it isn't wringing out the maximum potential that could have been put into it ... neither is it wringing out the last bit of my wallet to get those things.

Again ... I appreciate the line of thought and we likely won't ever know for sure. For me, it's not much diff that why Ford or Chevy went they way they did on a given model that goes against what I was thinking. They did it ... it's done. It's now my choice to buy it or not as it fits my needs vs. my expectation, desire, hope or want.

Simplistically, it is what it is ... do I want it or not?
That's the question that we all get to answer for ourselves.

I know what it doesn't have (4K video, dual slots, wider AF points, etc.), I know what it "doesn't do" (ISO invariance).
Now it's time to find out just how well it does what it does do.

YMMV




Jul 27, 2017 at 07:26 AM
Mikehit
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p.68 #18 · p.68 #18 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


Ubtree wrote:
I wonder whether some of the issues regarding Canon sensors (highlighted by the disappointing 6D MkII’s DR) might be due to manufacturing reject levels for sensors. I am not an expert in sensor manufacture, and no doubt those with more knowledge will be able to correct and add to the following.

Sensor costs – ignoring failure rates
It is reasonable to assume that, ignoring failure rates, the cost of producing a sensor is broadly directly proportional to its area. If so, you would expect the cost of a FF sensor to be 2.59x that of an APS-C sensor.

Failure rates
When they are manufactured,
...Show more


On another forum someone brought up the interesting thought that if you were to put the 5DIV sensor into the 6D2, this would take manufacturing capacity away from the 5DIV. So you then need to balance the relative profitabilities of the different cameras with how many sales you would lose from putting what people perceive to be an inferior sensor in the 6D2.

But what I don't understand is the accusation the Canon have used 'old technology' as a way of cutting costs.I find it hard to accept you have the original 6D sensor and decide to make it 26MP and simply press a '26MP' button on the fabrication conveyor belt. It has its own development costs. And given that they also have the technology for on-chip ADC already in place, what is the difference between making a FF 80D sensor and a 26MP 6D sensor? I think it is all a red herring from people trying to work out 'why'.

I think Canon have genuinely developed a new sensor for a type of use (ie a market segment) that does not meet the expectations of people on this (and many other) forums. I seem to remember similar complaints about the 6D and 5DIII, that under the 'standardised' testing of DPR and other sites was distinctly unimpressive but when paired with updated processing software showed itself to be far more useful than first envisaged. Will it be superior to 80D? Probably not - but I think it will be more comparable than many on here are making out. Will it be equal to a camera almost double its price? Why should it be?



Jul 27, 2017 at 08:19 AM
AvianScott
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p.68 #19 · p.68 #19 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


What if Canon developed the 6D II sensor before they started the on-chip ADC process (say, more than two years ago), and simply didn't release it with the 6D II until now because the original 6D was still selling so well? It makes as much or as little sense as any other theories out there.


Jul 27, 2017 at 08:33 AM
lighthound
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p.68 #20 · p.68 #20 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II


What if all the testing that has been completed to date are all off from pre production models that didn't have the ADC chip because it wasn't finished yet, whereas the actual release models do?

That would explain why all the early reviews ALWAYS stated the following in big bold letters.

"Note: It is important to keep in mind that my hands-on experience here was with a pre-production sample of the Canon 6D II and that all images in our gallery from Yellowstone were captured with a non-final camera. Further, all RAW processing was done with a beta version of Canon's Digital Photo Professional 4 software with the processed files then edited to taste in Adobe Photoshop. Full-resolution JPEG samples are available for you to view, but original RAW files are not."


What does "non-final camera" mean?

Yeah, I know. But it's fun to dream.



Jul 27, 2017 at 09:10 AM
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