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LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G
  
 
pdmphoto
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p.11 #1 · p.11 #1 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Complex distortion can be near impossible to completely correct, and detrimental to final IQ. I think those are valid points thay Lloyd Chambers is referring to, even if he is using KR language. I notice a ton of barrel distortion near the center of the image in Guys NY buildings shot (and others). It's not normal perspective distortion and doesn't look to be normal barrel distortion, which becomes increasingly apparent as you reach the edge of the frame.

I have not seen any evaluative post here on the distortion.



Jul 08, 2017 at 05:24 PM
pdmphoto
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p.11 #2 · p.11 #2 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


mogul wrote:
LLoyd is a paid shill for a German optics manufacturer.


The pendulumn seems to swing in the opposite direction here. Seems every lens released for Sony is a must have. How many of us are still enamored with the 55/1.8 ("mini Otus"- haha) the 70-200/4, 70-300, or the 28/2? The Canon 16-35/4 is still better than the Sony across the focal range.




Jul 08, 2017 at 05:41 PM
MedicineMan404
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p.11 #3 · p.11 #3 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Is it? Always? Never a copy variation?
I have both. Both are sharp.
Canon sharper? Nope.
Not everything in this world is absolute.



Jul 08, 2017 at 05:46 PM
Brandon Dube
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p.11 #4 · p.11 #4 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Fred Miranda wrote:
Thanks Brandon,
Were you able to test the Sony 12-24/4's distortion?

Honestly I don't care too much about distortion as I use these lenses for landscapes but of course it's important for many applications.

BTW, I didn't measure Canon/Sigma's ~5% distortion. I got these numbers from photozone:

Canon: 4.5% at 11mm

Sigma: 5% at 12mm


Ah, Photozone's chart is way too small to test an 11mm lens. They're also using Imatest, which does not report the optical distortion, but rather the SMPTE TV distortion which departs from the optical distortion by about cos(60deg).



Jul 08, 2017 at 05:46 PM
snapsy
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p.11 #5 · p.11 #5 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


pdmphoto wrote:
Complex distortion can be near impossible to completely correct, and detrimental to final IQ. I think those are valid points thay Lloyd Chambers is referring to, even if he is using KR language. I notice a ton of barrel distortion near the center of the image in Guys NY buildings shot (and others). It's not normal perspective distortion and doesn't look to be normal barrel distortion, which becomes increasingly apparent as you reach the edge of the frame.

I have not seen any evaluative post here on the distortion.


http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-12-244-on-a7rii-distortion/



Jul 08, 2017 at 05:47 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.11 #6 · p.11 #6 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


pdmphoto wrote:
Complex distortion can be near impossible to completely correct, and detrimental to final IQ. I think those are valid points thay Lloyd Chambers is referring to, even if he is using KR language. I notice a ton of barrel distortion near the center of the image in Guys NY buildings shot (and others). It's not normal perspective distortion and doesn't look to be normal barrel distortion, which becomes increasingly apparent as you reach the edge of the frame.

I have not seen any evaluative post here on the distortion.


I think it is way too early to talk about how easy it is to correct distortion. We need to see what the profiles are that are created by Adobe and Capture One and how well they work with the lens at various distances. If the profiles are good and work with a lot of distances, as I have found they often do, then correcting distortion can often be easy. We also need to see what if any IQ penalty is created by the correction--I see diminishing IQ far more often than an inability to correct distortion. In a few months we will know all of that, but I think Lloyd C. may very well have to eat crow on this one. It was unwise to make the claims he did without even owning the lens first. In his position crying wolf is a dangerous strategy. He needs to make sure there is an issue before he announces there is one and I don't see how he can be sure there is an issue in this case without having the lens.



Jul 08, 2017 at 05:58 PM
bjornthun
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p.11 #7 · p.11 #7 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


pdmphoto wrote:
The pendulumn seems to swing in the opposite direction here. Seems every lens released for Sony is a must have. How many of us are still enamored with the 55/1.8 ("mini Otus"- haha) the 70-200/4, 70-300, or the 28/2? The Canon 16-35/4 is still better than the Sony across the focal range.



My Sony 28/2, 55/1.8 and 70-200/4 still haven't turned bad.



Jul 08, 2017 at 06:09 PM
RobCD
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p.11 #8 · p.11 #8 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Fred Miranda wrote:
Thanks Brandon,
Were you able to test the Sony 12-24/4's distortion?

Honestly I don't care too much about distortion as I use these lenses for landscapes but of course it's important for many applications.

BTW, I didn't measure Canon/Sigma's ~5% distortion. I got these numbers from photozone:

Canon: 4.5% at 11mm

Sigma: 5% at 12mm


I wish I could better understand the differences between the various review sites. When I look at Lenstip their numbers are higher for the Canon and lower for the Sigma. It would also be nice for comparison purposes if they tested the Canon lens at 12mm since none of the other zooms go to 11mm.



Jul 08, 2017 at 06:16 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.11 #9 · p.11 #9 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


RobCD wrote:
I wish I could better understand the differences between the various review sites. When I look at Lenstip their numbers are higher for the Canon and lower for the Sigma. It would also be nice for comparison purposes if they tested the Canon lens at 12mm since none of the other zooms go to 11mm.


One important difference is whether the lens is tested by capturing an image of a test chart and evaluating the image with software or whether the lens is tested on an optical bench. Lens rentals and the old photodo site tested with an optical bench. This way of testing examines the lens only and measures contrast at different lp/mm, distortion, and vignetting at infinity. Lens rentals also has the advantage of testing multiple lenses (typically 10) so that the variation in lenses is measured as well. Other test sites take the approach of shooting a test chart and measuring the resolution, distortion, vignetting, and CA via software. Different software measures distortion in different ways, so especially distortion can be confusing in comparing across sites. Also comparing across systems and even with different cameras for the same system can be tricky with the software approach. It almost always does not make sense to compare across platforms or even cameras and comparing across sites is almost always tricky as well. In general, I find the software based testing to be pretty lacking and not very helpful. It tests at varying distances for different lenses but almost always pretty close up. You can't compare performance on different cameras in the same system let alone between systems. The resolution measures also can be very misleading because they are not very precise in that many different patterns of performance can produce the same resolution measurements. I could go on and on, but such tests have an air of objectivity when in fact they are testing very little.



Jul 08, 2017 at 06:56 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.11 #10 · p.11 #10 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Brandon Dube wrote:
Ah, Photozone's chart is way too small to test an 11mm lens. They're also using Imatest, which does not report the optical distortion, but rather the SMPTE TV distortion which departs from the optical distortion by about cos(60deg).


Brandon,
Do you have optical bench distortion numbers for the Sony 12-24/4 in comparison to Canon/Sigma? With that we would be comparing apples to apples.



Jul 08, 2017 at 07:02 PM
 

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Brandon Dube
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p.11 #11 · p.11 #11 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Fred Miranda wrote:
Do you have optical bench distortion numbers for the Sony 12-24/4 in comparison to Canon/Sigma? With that we would be comparing apples to apples.


We have the files, but I didn't do the testing and am away at a conference this week.



Jul 08, 2017 at 07:37 PM
Chris_88
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p.11 #12 · p.11 #12 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


It's a pity that some people always try to turn this into a "Sony versus Canon/Nikon/Zeiss" war. The last time I checked, every lens comes with its own set of compromises. Am I the only one who think it's unrealistic to expect a relatively compact and not outrageously priced 12-24 f4 to be perfectly corrected?

To get to this size and price point, Sony seems to have compromised flare resistance and distortion, rationalizing probably that the latter can to some extent be corrected in-camera. I don't plan on buying this lens, but I'd think that landscape shooters can live with the distortion. The flare would be a greater challenge.

If you need less distortion, you can always pick up the Canon or the Sigma, or a Zeiss (not sure how the Distagons measure up in that particular category).

Still, Sony managed to create a very sharp UWA lens weighing half of the Canon 11-24 and selling for 60% of the Canon's price (at least where I live), which seems to be quite an achievement. What Chambers and many other Zeiss-sponsored reviewers like to forget is that not everybody is willing or able to afford and carry around large, heavy, highly corrected f1.4 lenses.



Jul 09, 2017 at 12:16 AM
r.gil
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p.11 #13 · p.11 #13 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Chris_88 = The voice of reason


Jul 09, 2017 at 12:31 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.11 #14 · p.11 #14 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Chris_88 wrote:
It's a pity that some people always try to turn this into a "Sony versus Canon/Nikon/Zeiss" war. The last time I checked, every lens comes with its own set of compromises. Am I the only one who think it's unrealistic to expect a relatively compact and not outrageously priced 12-24 f4 to be perfectly corrected?

To get to this size and price point, Sony seems to have compromised flare resistance and distortion, rationalizing probably that the latter can to some extent be corrected in-camera. I don't plan on buying this lens, but I'd think that landscape shooters can live with
...Show more

I agree with what you wrote but it's important to mention that all ultra wide zooms (Canon, Sigma, Nikon) have issues with flare and distortion as well. At the end, I don't think Sony compromised much here. The smaller size/weight is mainly a product of the shorter flange focal distance.



Jul 09, 2017 at 12:38 AM
Chris_88
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p.11 #15 · p.11 #15 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Fred Miranda wrote:
I agree with what you wrote but it's important to mention that all ultra wide zooms (Canon, Sigma, Nikon) have issues with flare and distortion as well. At the end, I don't think Sony compromised much here. The smaller size/weight is mainly a product of the shorter flange focal distance.


Fred, I haven't used any of those. I only went by the distortion figures Brandon mentioned above.
My reference for sunstars is the Loxia 21, but then again comparing a zoom going as wide as 12mm to a 21mm prime probably makes for an apples to oranges comparison. The bulbous front elements of the big UWA primes certainly don't help with flare.



Jul 09, 2017 at 12:46 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.11 #16 · p.11 #16 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Chris_88 wrote:
Fred, I haven't used any of those. I only went by the distortion figures Brandon mentioned above.
My reference for sunstars is the Loxia 21, but then again comparing a zoom going as wide as 12mm to a 21mm prime probably makes for an apples to oranges comparison. The bulbous front elements of the big UWA primes certainly don't help with flare.


Brandon mentioned distortion numbers for the Canon 11-24L only. We don't know what the optical bench numbers will be for the Sony @12mm yet. Hopefully he will find some time to update us on this.

The bulbous front element is definitely a negative but flare performance is also related to coating and optical design.
From the images I've seen, I find both flare and distortion pretty average and comparable to other ultra-wide zooms.



Jul 09, 2017 at 01:11 AM
Chris_88
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p.11 #17 · p.11 #17 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Fred Miranda wrote:
Brandon mentioned distortion numbers for the Canon 11-24L only. We don't know what the optical bench numbers will be for the Sony @12mm yet. Hopefully he will find some time to update us on this.

The bulbous front element is definitely a negative but flare performance is also related to coating and optical design.
From the images I've seen, I find both flare and distortion pretty average and comparable to other ultra-wide zooms.


Fred, sorry, I somehow misread Brandon's post thinking he had already posted the figures for the Sony and that they were quite high compared to the Canon; probably, it was too early in the morning and/or I didn't have enough coffee .



Jul 09, 2017 at 04:18 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.11 #18 · p.11 #18 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Chris_88 wrote:
Fred, sorry, I somehow misread Brandon's post thinking he had already posted the figures for the Sony and that they were quite high compared to the Canon; probably, it was too early in the morning and/or I didn't have enough coffee .


Yeap, we don't know for sure. I'm sure Adobe will release a profile for this lens soon.



Jul 09, 2017 at 04:37 AM
mjm6
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p.11 #19 · p.11 #19 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Mine's going back... it is clearly unsharp on the right side.












Jul 09, 2017 at 04:37 AM
tylerdurden801
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p.11 #20 · p.11 #20 · LensRentals very impressed by the FE 12-24/4G


Yikes.


Jul 09, 2017 at 05:51 AM
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