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Archive 2017 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there

  
 
maestrofilms
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


It is believed that once Sony updates the firmware for their A mount adapter, Metabones and Sigma will be able to reverse engineer and match it's performance, which is said to be 10 FPS.
It's possible that will be only in compressed RAW, or maybe even only in JPG.



Jun 25, 2017 at 10:42 PM
cyberstudio
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


Sony updated LA-EA3 last month on the day the A9 came out and Metabones followed suit yesterday.
http://metabones.com/article/of/EF-E_Firmware_Mac
http://metabones.com/article/of/EF-E_Firmware_Win



Jun 26, 2017 at 09:05 AM
maestrofilms
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


That wasn't there when I posted yesterday.


Jun 26, 2017 at 10:21 AM
AGeoJO
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


cyberstudio wrote:
Sony updated LA-EA3 last month on the day the A9 came out and Metabones followed suit yesterday.
http://metabones.com/article/of/EF-E_Firmware_Mac
http://metabones.com/article/of/EF-E_Firmware_Win


And the enlarged PDAF area is great - thank you!



Jun 26, 2017 at 10:54 AM
frezeiss
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


I feel sony should script the E mount so only E mount lenses could use AF functions of the camera. This adapting thing while good for some users might hurt them finacially in the long run.

The question is when is the right time..



Jun 26, 2017 at 10:55 AM
AGeoJO
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


frezeiss wrote:
I feel sony should script the E mount so only E mount lenses could use AF functions of the camera. This adapting thing while good for some users might hurt them finacially in the long run.

The question is when is the right time..



Third party lens manufacturers always manage to reverse engineer the AF system sooner or later albeit to a varying degree of success, I may add. And nothing that Sony can do about it. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with that for us, the consumers. For sure, competition is always good and it will keep Sony "honest". Could you imagine how much Sony would charge for their lenses without any competition from independent lens makers? Sony will still sell tons of camera bodies and they make boat loads of money from that.



Jun 26, 2017 at 12:11 PM
frezeiss
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there




AGeoJO wrote:
Third party lens manufacturers always manage to reverse engineer the AF system sooner or later albeit to a varying degree of success, I may add. And nothing that Sony can do about it. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with that for us, the consumers. For sure, competition is always good and it will keep Sony "honest". Could you imagine how much Sony would charge for their lenses without any competition from independent lens makers? Sony will still sell tons of camera bodies and they make boat loads of money from that.


Its not of an Issue if Sigma or any other lens makers want to make dedicated E lenses, makes more options and good for competition. But I do find it funny that a Canon mount lens could have AF functionality in E mount. Your recent comment about MC-11 could not play well with Canon lenses after firmware makes sense. Who knows if Sony would do the same..

I love what Sony is doing, FF mirrorless, innovations etc. seems too bad if they didnt profited enough to keep what theyre doing.



Jun 26, 2017 at 09:26 PM
MSantiago
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


AGeoJO wrote:
Third party lens manufacturers always manage to reverse engineer the AF system sooner or later albeit to a varying degree of success, I may add. And nothing that Sony can do about it. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with that for us, the consumers. For sure, competition is always good and it will keep Sony "honest". Could you imagine how much Sony would charge for their lenses without any competition from independent lens makers? Sony will still sell tons of camera bodies and they make boat loads of money from that.


Sony shares the E mount specifications with third parties. No reverse engineering needed unless Sony's holding back on certain features.



Jun 26, 2017 at 10:14 PM
AGeoJO
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


MSantiago wrote:
Sony shares the E mount specifications with third parties. No reverse engineering needed unless Sony's holding back on certain features.



The mount, yes, the AF algorithm, which is completely different, is not. At least, that's my understanding.



Jun 26, 2017 at 10:35 PM
MSantiago
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


AGeoJO wrote:
The mount, yes, the AF algorithm, which is completely different, is not. At least, that's my understanding.


It's pretty trivial to put together the dimensions of the bayonet, though. Third parties don't need Sony's help with that. The disclosure is much more likely to be the basics of the protocol. What's unknown is whether or not there are newer versions of the protocol or undocumented features that aren't available to third parties.



Jun 26, 2017 at 10:43 PM
AGeoJO
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


MSantiago wrote:
It's pretty trivial to put together the dimensions of the bayonet, though. Third parties don't need Sony's help with that. The disclosure is much more likely to be the basics of the protocol. What's unknown is whether or not there are newer versions of the protocol or undocumented features that aren't available to third parties.


My point is, both Sigma and Metabones, have not quite been successful in delivering the AF performance, matching that of Sony native FE lenses using Canon/Sigma lenses on their adapters. Granted this case pertains more to adapters. I believe the only independent lens manufacturer that has produced AF lenses is Samyang/Rokinon. But I am not familiar with the AF performance of those lenses.



Jun 26, 2017 at 11:01 PM
MSantiago
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


AGeoJO wrote:
My point is, both Sigma and Metabones, have not quite been successful in delivering the AF performance, matching that of Sony native FE lenses using Canon/Sigma lenses on their adapters. Granted this case pertains more to adapters. I believe the only independent lens manufacturer that has produced AF lenses is Samyang/Rokinon. But I am not familiar with the AF performance of those lenses.


Adapting lenses is a very different story. The ring USM motors in most DSLR lenses aren't suited for the CDAF/hybrid AF systems in mirrorless bodies so their performance really isn't a good indicator of what third party native designs are capable of.

Also, both Sigma and Tamron have produced native E mount lenses already for APS-C. Sigma has a 19mm 2.8, 30mm 2.8, 60mm 2.8, and 30mm 1.4 in their DN line. Tamron has a native 18-200 superzoom. I'm not sure how the AF performance is on the Tamron, but the Sigmas do perform fairly well.



Jun 27, 2017 at 01:42 AM
bjornthun
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


Zeiss licenses the E mount AF protocol for the Batis and Touit series of lenses. The Batis series is Zeiss' own lenses and designed by them. The Sony/Zeiss lenses are designed and manufactured by Sony.


Jun 27, 2017 at 05:26 AM
SoundHound
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


I am a new Sony A9 owner. I bought the combo for silent, low light 20fps use. Ky 1st shoot was last Sunday. ISO 6400 with fast moving dancers. Yes bursts at 20 fps do give you an advantage over 12fps for spins and jumps. Face focus is effective since it works over the entire sensor Total silent operation is vital for less than loud music.

My only lens is the 24-70 F2.8 GM which appears as sharp as my two 24-70 Jikkors. Note that the GA is a T F2.8 which is significant since I shoot wide open. Reluctant however to buy the 70-200 GM because the Nikkor 70-200 FL is so far ahead of the pack in IQ. No possibility for less than the fastest most accurate AF in this kind of work.

Also shot the amazing 105 F1.4 Nikkor. Two stops faster and as sharp or sharper than my F2.8 zooms. Then there's the Magic 200mm F2.0. No way I can lose those three lenses. So I am stuck with the A9 and D5.



Jun 27, 2017 at 07:01 AM
telljcl
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there




Beside the USM limitation, it might require hi-speed I/O interfaces from the lens & adapter to be in synced with A9 in order for 60fps AF tasks to work properly (in tracking modes) at A9 extremely high frame rate. The exists adapters should be OK with slower frame rate setting for now. Let hope, 3rd party adapters MFG will upgrade their CPUs anytime soon. Even this upgraded available, most adapted lenses can't compete with native lenses. It would be nice someone to list the best frame rates to work with canon lenses.


I've been a bit frustrated when trying native Sony GM lenses -vs- adapted Canon (on both A7r2 & A6500 bodies).

Bought 70-200 2.8 GM, ended up returning it. Though a nice lens to be sure, couldn't discern any improvement over my Canon 70-200 II, and most importantly - couldn't get it to continually focus on moving subjects any better than adapted (metabones and sigma) Canon 70-200, and this only works for 1st shot or 2, even when set on low FPS setting. Moving subjects was the main thing I was unable to do with adapted setup, and still couldn't with native - not sure why.

My Canon 100-400 II is unusable trying to shoot anything flying / moving - f5.6 is probably the issue I guess, but just bought the Sony 100-400 so we'll see if it works for moving subjects (I sure hope better than the 70-200 GM did... but maybe I was somehow doing something wrong...)

The other thing I really dislike about Native lenses is the smallest focus "box" is still too big - can cover an animal's nose and eyes at the same time, but with adapted I can place the smaller box that the adapted lens has over the eye specifically. This is huge for me - I'm not sure what the native lens decides to focus on in this case




Aug 08, 2017 at 08:31 AM
kevindar
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


Interesting read. I am very new to a7rII and the metabones, with a host of ef mount lenses.
So far, my 16-35 f4 24-70 2.8II and f4, 70-200 2.8 II, 24 1.4II, 35 1.4, 40 2.8, 85 1.2II, sigma 150 2.8 have all worked very well for non tracking AF. I have not tried the 100-400II. the thing with that lens is that I will be likely using it for moving objects, so I think I need to keep my 80D for those times I want to use the lens.
I have considered trading in my 24, 35, and 85L lenses for the sigma variant and picking up the mc-11 adapter, so I have better AF. The problem is that the sigma versions are all significantly bigger and heavier.



Aug 08, 2017 at 09:31 AM
Charlie N
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


kevindar wrote:
Interesting read. I am very new to a7rII and the metabones, with a host of ef mount lenses.
So far, my 16-35 f4 24-70 2.8II and f4, 70-200 2.8 II, 24 1.4II, 35 1.4, 40 2.8, 85 1.2II, sigma 150 2.8 have all worked very well for non tracking AF. I have not tried the 100-400II. the thing with that lens is that I will be likely using it for moving objects, so I think I need to keep my 80D for those times I want to use the lens.
I have considered trading in my 24, 35, and 85L
...Show more

sigma doesnt do well tracking, well at least from what I own, the MC11 + 135 Art. Metabones will work like how your canon lenses work.



Aug 08, 2017 at 11:45 AM
notherenow
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


SoundHound wrote:
I am a new Sony A9 owner. I bought the combo for silent, low light 20fps use. Ky 1st shoot was last Sunday. ISO 6400 with fast moving dancers. Yes bursts at 20 fps do give you an advantage over 12fps for spins and jumps. Face focus is effective since it works over the entire sensor Total silent operation is vital for less than loud music.

My only lens is the 24-70 F2.8 GM which appears as sharp as my two 24-70 Jikkors. Note that the GA is a T F2.8 which is significant since I shoot wide open. Reluctant
...Show more

Just curious if you have tried one of the native 85mm lenses for the A9?

Both the Batis 85 1.8 and FE 85 1.8 are T 1.8 on FF (that lovely 105 1.4 is T 1.7).

I don't find a huge difference between those focal lengths and having just purchased the FE 85 1.8 and tried it against my Canon EF 100 f2 (an old design but still ok) well the Canon will get a lot less use adapted to my A7s now.

Can not argue about the 200 f2 but for its price, the FE 85 1.8 is an absolute bargain that I think every Sony FF E mount event shooter should have* It is cheap enough to be easily added for many who can afford a A9 or A7Rii and still extremely good.


*Obviously not if using a GM or Batis 85 or has something else they prefer or hates 85mm).



Aug 08, 2017 at 03:40 PM
kevindar
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


thanks Charlie. good to know.


Aug 08, 2017 at 06:21 PM
SoundHound
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Adapted vs Native. Any real tests out there


I owned and sold the, well regarded, Nikkor 85mm F1.4. The 105 F1.4 seems to have a certain short tele Magic. What I really wanted was a 135mm F(T?)1.8. Waiting for a native version.


Aug 09, 2017 at 10:06 AM
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