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Archive 2017 · ND Filter Advice

  
 
LinuxHack3r
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · ND Filter Advice


So I am taking a trip to Puerto Rico next month. I really hope to take some nice landscapes of the beach and water in the morning/sunset and possibly night.

I've never really used an ND at all but very interested in messing around with one. I'll be taking my 24-70 F/4 IS that I just bought, 77mm filter size.

Which one to buy? I see they are generally based on stops. If shooting in bright light one is shooting at 1/500 shutter speed, a 10 stop difference only gets you to 2 seconds. You could potentially close your aperture 2 stops to get to 8 seconds. Am I off in thinking a 10 stop ND filter would be about what I would want, allowing me to have a good flexibility in shutter speed when doing long exposures?

I don't mind paying some for a filter, maybe $50-$75 really, unless someone convinces me that $100 is better spent. I'm also considering whether or not maybe I should get two, one a 10 stop ND and maybe one 3 stop or so. Thoughts?



Jun 19, 2017 at 09:01 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · ND Filter Advice


These are the best you can get:

https://breakthrough.photography/collections/all/products/x4-neutral-density?variant=30850760145




Jun 19, 2017 at 09:10 AM
dsjtecserv
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · ND Filter Advice


Applying the sunny 16 rule in direct sunlight, you would be shooting at f/16 at 1/ISO. So if ISO is 100, then 1/100 sec; if you are shooting at 1/500 then you are either at f/7.1 or using ISO ~500. A 10-stop filter applied to a 1/100 standard exposure would give you 1024/100 or about 10 seconds, which is pretty close to what you came up with. so yes, if that is the range you have in mind, then a 10-stop will do that.

If for a particular shot you don't need such a long exposure, then you can increase ISO or open the aperture a bit to decrease exposure duration. But note that if you are starting with less-than-sunny conditions, your starting exposure will be longer, and it will be harder to get back to shorter duration.

On the other hand, if you want exposures longer than 10 seconds in sunlight, then you will likely need more ND. Some cameras have extended ISO at less than 100, at the cost of some highlight headroom, or you can stop down more, at the cost of increased diffraction. Otherwise, to gain more ND you will need to stack ND's (with potentially more flare) or get a darker ND; there are 16-stop versions available.

Dave



Jun 19, 2017 at 11:18 AM
LinuxHack3r
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · ND Filter Advice


dsjtecserv wrote:
Applying the sunny 16 rule in direct sunlight, you would be shooting at f/16 at 1/ISO. So if ISO is 100, then 1/100 sec; if you are shooting at 1/500 then you are either at f/7.1 or using ISO ~500. A 10-stop filter applied to a 1/100 standard exposure would give you 1024/100 or about 10 seconds, which is pretty close to what you came up with. so yes, if that is the range you have in mind, then a 10-stop will do that.

If for a particular shot you don't need such a long exposure, then you can increase ISO
...Show more

Thanks! I've heard of the Sunny 16 rule, never actually applied it. I generally figured it out from your post, but will be doing a bit more reading about it. However, once I'm actually shooting it won't matter, I'll be putting at ISO 100, between f/5.6 and f/11, and then shutter speed based on metering. But Sunny 16 will be great when I'm buying an ND filter beforehand Thanks!

I am thinking I may try and start with a 10 stop ND filter. Seems like it would offer flexibility based on shutter speed and aperture, so I have some wiggle room to adjust DOF or shutter speed, depending on which I want. I'd like to avoid diffraction if possible. I hope to purchase the ND filter within the next 2 weeks and then go find someplace around where I live now to test it out, practice taking some shots from 1 second to 10 seconds, even if I'm not necessarily doing anything with water, etc!



Jun 19, 2017 at 12:48 PM
jharter
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · ND Filter Advice


If you are just starting out with ND filters don't spend a lot of money.

Reduce the ISO to its lowest setting, f16, and add ND filter. For long exposures (e.g. 30+ seconds in broad daylight) you will need a 12-15 stop filter.

Avoid variable ND filters which are more prone to color casts and artifacts.

I suggest Haida 10, 12, or 15 stop filters on Amazon.



Jun 19, 2017 at 08:50 PM
LinuxHack3r
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · ND Filter Advice


Just purchased a B&W 3.0 ND filter on Amazon, 10 stops of course.

I got it because it was well reviewed, an affordable price, and something I feel confident in trying:

http://amzn.to/2sUsM8s



Jul 13, 2017 at 10:19 AM
uscmatt99
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · ND Filter Advice


Since you will be shooting scenes with water, you may want to try stacking a polarizing filter on top of your ND filter. This will cut down bright reflective light off the water and clouds, depending on the angle, and could help to increase your exposure times without stopping down into diffraction territory. Newer C-Pol filters have high transmission and don't cut a lot of light, while older ones will add an additional 1-2 stops of light blockage to your arsenal. Just be aware of uneven skies if you plan to use this on lenses wider than 35mm.


Jul 13, 2017 at 11:32 AM
grog13
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · ND Filter Advice


This is a complicated business. Unless you have a particular shot in particular conditions in mind, it's not possible to say which filter (singular) you should get. I shoot with NDs a lot and have 2-, 3-, 4-, 6- and 10-stop. If you're expecting to shoot in the open (beach, etc) in daylight, you probably want at least 6 and likely 10 or more stops, depending on whether you want to smear motion or just keep apertures open and ISO down. I have usually had poor results stacking filters. I don't know why, but in my experience a stacked 2-stop + 4-stop shows much more color shift than one 6-stop, even if they're all the same type filter. This may be minimized with the best filters.
You should be able to get decent filters in the 1 to 6 stop range for $50-75, but the 10-stop or more may cost more. I've had good results with Marumi, B&W, and the mid-to-higher end Hoya. I'm sure there are better ones, but you'll see the price climb steeply for small (or possibly no) improvements.
Just my experience, FWIW.



Jul 13, 2017 at 12:43 PM
monkey007
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · ND Filter Advice


I have 10 stop and 3 stop ND which sometimes I stack to get the shutter speed I need.

Remember once you put your ND filter on the lens, you won't be able to see anything in the viewfinder. Btw cover the viewfinder so you don't get a light leak on the sensor.
When I need to recompose or check the focus instead of removing the filter I switch to Live view and increase exposure (lower aperture or increase ISO). Now I can see the scene and focus. After I'm done I switch the exposure values back. This is easy and fast way to work with ND filters.



Jul 13, 2017 at 08:08 PM
Abbott Schindl
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · ND Filter Advice


I have the same ND values as grog13—all Hoya ProND, which are excellent. I used to have a smaller set of B+W, but their "gray" wasn't consistent among the filters, whereas the Hoyas are identical gray to my naked eye. I uae the +6 and +10 filters (sometimes stacked) the most.

I also have a Breakthrough ND, and frankly don't see any differences in my images between it and the Hoyas. I also don't find it any easier or harder to clean or anything else. While the filter's nice, so are Hoyas. So far among B+W, Breakthrough and Hoya, the only NDs I've found that weren't great were the B+Ws because of their visible color differences among the densities—their "gray" varied to my eye (against a white background) from neutral to cool to warm, with no apparent relationship between shade of gray and ND density. This has been noted by others in older posts in this and other forums.

I also have a Tiffen VND which is also very good. I like that its outer element is larger than the inner, so it's not prone to vignetting on WA lenses.

Three things about VNDs:
- Some exhibit a blue shift as you rotate to darken them.
- Some exhibit severe cross-hatch patterns at the highest densities, and you often can't see this when you're composing the image.
- Since they're made from sandwiched polarizers (a CPL + a linear), they polarize and most filters don't provide a way to orient the polarization. I dealt with this by adding the rotating mount from a cheap CPL, so now my VND rotates independently for polarizing and optical density. Either Schneider or Lee (I don't remember which) has this built-in, but they're both really really pricey.

Again referring to grog13, using NDs is about more than just putting a filter on to slow movement or control DoF. You need to learn to judge movement and apply appropriate ND value(s), and be confident using M exposures. Exposure is especially important because the camera's light meter probably won't meter accurately at higher density values, so you'll need to compensate by perhaps 3 or more stops at densities greater than 6 or so.



Jul 14, 2017 at 11:50 AM
LinuxHack3r
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · ND Filter Advice


monkey007 wrote:
I have 10 stop and 3 stop ND which sometimes I stack to get the shutter speed I need.

Remember once you put your ND filter on the lens, you won't be able to see anything in the viewfinder. Btw cover the viewfinder so you don't get a light leak on the sensor.
When I need to recompose or check the focus instead of removing the filter I switch to Live view and increase exposure (lower aperture or increase ISO). Now I can see the scene and focus. After I'm done I switch the exposure values back. This is easy and fast
...Show more

Yeah, I coincidentally discovered yesterday about covering the viewfinder. I had to go and dig up my OEM strap because it was attached to that. Glad I did this before we leave for the trip!



Jul 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM
JameelH
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · ND Filter Advice


I find a black microfiber towel that I keep in the bag the most convenient way to cover the viewfinder. I really wish Canon would add a viewfinder shutter to the 5D series in addition to the 1DX. It is needed more for landscape than any other kind of photography.


Jul 14, 2017 at 06:01 PM
Frogfish
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · ND Filter Advice


It's a pity you went out and dove straight into a 10 stop ND. I have one and use it a lot but you need to know what you want it for and what you want to achieve.

You specifically mention sunrises/sunsets. In which case you aren't going to be anywhere near 1/500 without an ND ! For most cases then a shutter speed of 6 - 10 secs will easily achieve the look that the majority of people may want to achieve and once you've stopped down (which you will likely want to do) and maybe added a polariser (add another 2 stops) then a 3 stop will probably be enough. Once you get to 20-30 secs or really long exposures you really need to know what you are trying to accomplish.

e.g. It's close to sunset and a correct exposure at f4 and ISO100 is 1/15. Stopping down to f8 gives you 1/4 second or f16 for a single shot with more DoF at hyperfocal is 1 secs. That's without any ND or Polariser at all ! Adding a 10 stop to f8 would give a 2 mins and 8 secs exposure or at f16 an 8 mins and 32 secs exposure !!
BTW these calculations are easy using one of the many apps available (I use the superb multi-function PhotoPills).

Buying a 3 stop and a 6 stop (which can be stacked to give you a 9 stop of course) are far more useful and in fact are what Breakthrough filters advise. If I remember correctly they have a blog on their site which can give you excellent advice. A single 10 stop doesn't give you anywhere near as much flexibility and, unless shooting during bright daylight, won't be very useful to you personally, IMHO.



Jul 16, 2017 at 03:59 AM
Abbott Schindl
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · ND Filter Advice


Frogfish hit the nail on the head: you really need to know what you want to accomplish ("visualize" and "compose" come to mind). The example provided illustrates how to calculate whether you need ND(s) and if so, how much light-blocking strength is needed.

I bought a 10-stop after years of having 2-, 3-, and 6-stop NDs. Specific reasons: I'm trying to create specific effects for very slow moving water, like placid lakes, and at times of day other than the blue and golden hours. Sometimes I need a couple of minutes of exposure, and I don't want to stack filters because stacking produces vignetting with one of the UWA lenses I want to use. And while I have CPLs, they're newer high transmittance units (I use a Hoya; Breakthrough has similar transmission properties), I want to use it for controlling reflections and not for reducing light at the sensor.

Breakthrough has a very good article on their site about selecting ND filters; the advice is similar to what I've seen on a number of other sites.



Jul 16, 2017 at 12:34 PM
LinuxHack3r
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · ND Filter Advice


Frogfish wrote:
It's a pity you went out and dove straight into a 10 stop ND. I have one and use it a lot but you need to know what you want it for and what you want to achieve.

You specifically mention sunrises/sunsets. In which case you aren't going to be anywhere near 1/500 without an ND ! For most cases then a shutter speed of 6 - 10 secs will easily achieve the look that the majority of people may want to achieve and once you've stopped down (which you will likely want to do) and maybe added a polariser
...Show more

---------------------------------------------

Abbott Schindl wrote:
Frogfish hit the nail on the head: you really need to know what you want to accomplish ("visualize" and "compose" come to mind). The example provided illustrates how to calculate whether you need ND(s) and if so, how much light-blocking strength is needed.

I bought a 10-stop after years of having 2-, 3-, and 6-stop NDs. Specific reasons: I'm trying to create specific effects for very slow moving water, like placid lakes, and at times of day other than the blue and golden hours. Sometimes I need a couple of minutes of exposure, and I don't want to stack filters
...Show more

First, let me state that I found PhotoPills last week and immediately bought it. Wonderful app! Secondly, I probably primarily plan on using the ND during daylight, regardless of what I may or may not have mentioned above. I'm hoping to do some cool shots of waves, etc. Ultimately, I don't know exactly what I'll be trying to do because I haven't ever really messed with it at all. I'll be experimenting. In the evening during sunset, it seems I can perform a long exposure without an ND at all, according to your own calculations.

I also purchased one of the Neewer Timer Remotes so that I can take multiple exposures and then blend them in Photoshop after the fact, mimicking a long exposure. I also hope to take some photos with different focus to try focus stacking.

In short, I hope to be trying multiple landscape techniques but will probably also just shoot normal exposures. I thought about purchasing a circular polarizer but since it can throw skies off with wide angle lenses, it was lower on my priority list.

Perhaps I should have purchased a 3 and 6 stop ND.

Using PhotoPills, I'm showing an exposure of f/4.0, 1/1000s, ISO 100 to have an EV of +13.97. That's "Typical scene in hazy sunlight (soft shadows). That isn't as bright as it could be on a beach with sand and water reflections. A 10-Stop ND gets me to a 1 second exposure. I felt a 10-Stop ND gave me flexibility, because at this I can either close the aperture a few stops to get to 2/4/8/16 seconds on the exposure.

Dropping the shutter to 1/250s gets me to EV of +11.97, or just about "sunset". If I want to shoot f/4.0 at that with a 4s exposure, I can with the ND. With this, I can also adjust the aperture and ISO a bit to have a great amount of flexibility.

All of this is assuming I'm using PhotoPill's EV value Exposure Calculator correctly.



Jul 17, 2017 at 01:32 PM
shutterbug guy
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · ND Filter Advice


I've ventured away from the big names in ND as I've experienced varying degrees of color cast. Now days I'm perfectly happy with my Haida 4x6 filters which have virtually no color cast and no perceptible image degration.

I have no idea about the new kid on the block, Breakthrough filters. There seems to be a decent fan following for them so they must be okay.

I went with the 3, 6, and 10 stop 4x6 filters with a cheap Cokin filter holder, no complaints. I also have an assortment of graduated neutral density and a polarizer all of with which basically leaves me not lusting for additional filters anymore. Perhaps I've overstocked but they do fit rather nicely in a Clik Filter Valet, which holds the complete set including the lens adapter rings minus the Cokin Filter Holder.

I've noticed that Clik doesn't make the Filter Valet anymore apparently, Haida has a nice pouch which carries the filter holder also, nice. Haida Filter Pouch



Jul 19, 2017 at 07:31 AM
LinuxHack3r
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · ND Filter Advice


I have messed around with the ND a bit. Loving it so far! Operating strictly on iOS and will use Lightroom when I get home.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1500629/0#lastmessage



Jul 21, 2017 at 09:18 PM





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