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A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video ...
  
 
Widgic
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Check out

" target="_blank">Vincent Laforet video
on the RED Weapon 8K video camera.

8k video is 35MP resolution (8192 x 4320), and this camera shoots at 60 fps in 8k (120 fps in 4k) with every single frame stored in RAW format (so no MPEG or even JPEG compression artifacts).

It pre-record up to 30 seconds before yo push the shutter button... So you'll won't have an excuse to miss that jump shot or goal anymore.

On the DXO web site it compares pretty well to the D5 and 1DX II and exposure time (shutter speed) range is 1/8000 to 1/8s (to be verified, I didn't check all the specs in detail).

Also, the crop factor is 1.3 so your 400 mm becomes a 520mm!

Downside:

  1. Clearly the price @ $50k entry point (probably more when configured with all the necessary goodies and storage)

  2. No mention of autofocus, but in general autofocus on these cameras is complicated



Jun 19, 2017 at 02:33 AM
PureMichigan
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Yeah, we're not far off at all from just shooting video and choosing frames at level that flagship DSLRs can do so. I heard a B&H podcast a few years ago noting that in 5-7 years it will probably be the norm. Frankly when you are at 20fps like the new Sony, we're already pretty darn close.


Jun 19, 2017 at 01:12 PM
JohnPinette
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


In a long day at a typical event I may shoot 400 minutes of gymnastics/dance routines. At 60fps that's 1,440,000 individual frames/day. Not sure how I'd deal with all that data and market and sell that.


Jun 19, 2017 at 04:16 PM
Widgic
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


JohnPinette wrote:
In a long day at a typical event I may shoot 400 minutes of gymnastics/dance routines. At 60fps that's 1,440,000 individual frames/day. Not sure how I'd deal with all that data and market and sell that.


I am with you on that!



Jun 19, 2017 at 04:19 PM
glort
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


JohnPinette wrote:
In a long day at a typical event I may shoot 400 minutes of gymnastics/dance routines. At 60fps that's 1,440,000 individual frames/day. Not sure how I'd deal with all that data and market and sell that.


Pffft! Some of the wedding guys are advancing on that with still camera's these days.
A good number of them are shooting 10K frames + on weddings and insisting that to do anything less is providing some sort of sub standard coverage. The kicker is, they throw away all but about 700-1500 which they deliver. I have got Ridiculed and lambasted when I said taking 50 Frames of each speech maker and more of the best man and groom was ridiculous.
These guys insist that you need to take that many to capture the " Moment".

Sounds like complete and utter bullshit to me as an excuse for incompetence and spray and pray but geez, what would I know? I have only been shooting weddings since a lot of these machine Gun Freddies still had mummy wiping their arse and blowing their noses! :0)


For $50K Plus ( always going to be accessories, cables etc that will be needed) you'd certainly want to have your contracts lined up and be assured of a worthwhile return before dropping anything like that sort of money on a camera in the sports photo market. Even since I got out of it about 5 years ago the returns seem to have plummeted even further bar for a few Niche markets.

I think something a lot lower in res would do the majority of this work anyhow. I don't think a lot of people are even ordering prints these days and 2Mp is more than enough for the web or looking at on your phone. The great majority of sports clients wouldn't care if the File was 35 Mp or 3.5 mp.

Irony would be that even with a near endless selection of frames to choose from, you are still going to have athletes and parents saying the shot isn't quite right and making excuses or complaining about something you have absolutely no control over what so ever as an excuse not to buy!





Jun 21, 2017 at 04:01 AM
Mikehit
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


I don't shoot much video, but one thing I have learned is that if you shoot at 1/2000 sec to capture action, it creates poor video. If you shoot good video by slowing down the shutter speed to give some sort of blurring in the frame you get no sharp action shots. So if the action is slow enough to take a frame grab, then if you are having problems catching the peak action should you really be spending this much on a camera....?

I guess if you shoot at 500 frames a second or whatever is needed you will over come this but then you have 30seconds at 500 frames a second....




Jun 21, 2017 at 07:24 AM
Littleguy
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


BINGO - any film student will tell you that the OP is out to lunch.

Any video that you want to have that cinematic look will have a shutter speed that doubles your frame rate to get motion blur - its that motion blur that creates the cinematic look plus colour grading.

A 24 fps video requires a shutter speed of 1/48 - how do you think your still sports shot will look when shot at 1/48 of a second?

You can crack up the shutter speed to 1/120 but you get some interesting effects. Watch Private Ryan to see how it looks.
https://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-saving-private-ryan/

But even at 1/120 - for a sports still shooter - that's still not fast enough.

This is the reason why still shooters will not be stripping stills from a sports video shoot - unless the video shoot's only purpose was for still images and you set the shutter accordingly because it will be pretty useless as a video - it will look very odd as a video. I can see it being used for slow motion shots but are you going to produce a whole video of just slow motion shots?

Sure for a portrait session - you can probably get away with shooting at 1/60 or maybe 1/120 but for action sports?

Mikehit wrote:
I don't shoot much video, but one thing I have learned is that if you shoot at 1/2000 sec to capture action, it creates poor video. If you shoot good video by slowing down the shutter speed to give some sort of blurring in the frame you get no sharp action shots. So if the action is slow enough to take a frame grab, then if you are having problems catching the peak action should you really be spending this much on a camera....?

I guess if you shoot at 500 frames a second or whatever is needed you will over
...Show more



Edited on Jun 21, 2017 at 06:09 PM · View previous versions



Jun 21, 2017 at 05:34 PM
Widgic
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Littleguy wrote:
BINGO - any film student will tell you that the OP is out to lunch.


Hum... You might want to read in more details my OP before making comments... or people mightl assume you are either lazy or just stupid.

...exposure time (shutter speed) range is 1/8000 to 1/8s (to be verified, I didn't check all the specs in detail)...

Cheers.




Jun 21, 2017 at 05:46 PM
 

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Littleguy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Sure call me stupid - my point was that just because the camera can shoot at 1/8000 of second doesn't mean that the video guys will shoot at that speed or did I misread your statement about the camera being able to shoot at 1/8000s?

Rule of thumb when shooting video for that cinematic look - take your frame rate and double it. That's why variable ND filters are used so much by video people. They cannot play around with their shutter speeds - they can only play around with the aperture settings or use an ND filter to cut down the light when shooting outside in bright conditions.


Widgic wrote:
Hum... You might want to read in more details my OP before making comments... or people mightl assume you are either lazy or just stupid.

Cheers.






Jun 21, 2017 at 05:54 PM
Widgic
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Littleguy wrote:
Sure call me stupid - my point was that just because the camera can shoot at 1/8000 of second doesn't mean that the video guys will shoot at that speed or did I misread your statement about the camera being able to shoot at 1/8000s?


I never talked about using it for video purpose in my OP... You just interpreted and made an assumptions and claimed that I was "out to lunch". So yes...



Jun 21, 2017 at 06:33 PM
Littleguy
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


OK - so your post was about buying a $50K - 8K video camera but not using it to shoot video - but just to shoot still sports using manual focus lenses being a "game changer"?

Sure - call me stupid...

Widgic wrote:
I never talked about using it for video purpose in my OP... You just interpreted and made an assumptions and claimed that I was "out to lunch". So yes...





Jun 21, 2017 at 07:12 PM
Widgic
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Littleguy wrote:
OK - so your post was about buying a $50K - 8K video camera but not using it to shoot video - but just to shoot still sports using manual focus lenses being a "game changer"?

Sure - call me stupid...



I started shooting - sports and travel photos in the 80's - with a Nikon FM with the Nikon MD-12 motor drive, 3 prime Nikon lenses, a Vivitar 70-210mm F/3.5 zoom and a monster National flash (you'd burn yourself with that thing if you were not careful).

In the 90s with a friend we bought and shared a Kodak NC2000 that cost close to $20,000 when all taken into account. Performance (2.5 fps, 1600 USO if I remember correctly) was worst than the Nikon film bodies I used at the time, but by then editors where already start to ask for "internet ready" photos so that's why we invested.

And at that time the top of the line Kodak digital back was the
DCS-460 which sold sold for $35k in 1995.

Translate that into today's dollars and you have the equivalent (according to this nifty inflation calculator) to a $50+ Red 8k camera.

Now, look at the Sony A9... it's a SLR with all the performance of a modern professional grade camera and it already shoots at 20fps (for 240 RAW frames at 24MP). Still not the performance of the Red 8K (altho it's probably better on other specs), but it sells for 1/10th of the price.

So it's not far fetched to imagine in the very near future an "affordable" still photo camera body (if you can call $6k for a camera body affordable) that will shoot at 30MP, 60+fps in RAW, with a large frame buffer, pre-recording capabilities and good ISO performances. And this camera will surely also shoot video

And, to amplify other comments on this thread, these capabilities will further depress the sport photography market as once it's available, capturing the "peak action" moments will just become trivial: just follow the action and when something interesting "happened" (past tense) press the shutter button to push the last few seconds of the continuously recording frame buffer to long term storage memory. Voila!

So yes, in that sense the Red 8X camera is a game changer (albeit an expensive one) for still sport photography.



Jun 21, 2017 at 09:11 PM
glort
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Widgic wrote:
I started shooting - sports and travel photos in the 80's - with a Nikon FM with the Nikon MD-12 motor drive, 3 prime Nikon lenses, a Vivitar 70-210mm F/3.5 zoom and a monster National flash (you'd burn yourself with that thing if you were not careful).


OMG. That's a trip Down Memory lane!
Had the same sort of thing only used FE-2's. 70-210 Vivitar I think I still have up the back in the Museum box. Definitely have the National Flash, PE- something. Vivitar flashes were popular then too but I had nationals myself. What did the MD-12 Do? 2.5, 3 FPS? Now we have debates that 8 or 10 FPS isn't enough to capture the same games we were shooting back then and getting great pics.


In the 90s with a friend we bought and shared a Kodak NC2000 that cost close to $20,000 when all taken into account. Performance (2.5 fps, 1600 USO if I remember correctly) was worst than the Nikon film bodies I used at the time, but by then editors where already start to ask for "internet ready" photos so that's why we invested.


Yep, in reality, Complete and utter POS and the size of a house with bugger all battery life. A Modded Nikon made double the size, triple the weight and a fraction of the quality.


Translate that into today's dollars and you have the equivalent (according to this nifty inflation calculator) to a $50+ Red 8k camera.


Problem is, back they you could make a buck out of sports work. Now it's far more limited to get anything like those returns.



So it's not far fetched to imagine in the very near future an "affordable" still photo camera body (if you can call $6k for a camera body affordable) that will shoot at 30MP, 60+fps in RAW, with a large frame buffer, pre-recording capabilities and good ISO performances. And this camera will surely also shoot video


For me, it's never about the price of the gear, it's about the returns I can get with it.
That's much harder now and I can really only think of 2 things I'd do in sports work these days which would make me a decent buck.

And, to amplify other comments on this thread, these capabilities will further depress the sport photography market as once it's available, capturing the "peak action" moments will just become trivial: just follow the action and when something interesting "happened" (past tense) press the shutter button to push the last few seconds of the continuously recording frame buffer to long term storage memory. Voila!

Hmm, in the things I'm thinking of as amazing as that capeability would be, they would need a more traditional approach as the action comes thick and very fast. At very least you'd need to be recording the whole time to get the snippets you wanted.

In other thing I think it still comes down to the fundamental that no matter how great the pics you are are, you are still going to have trouble making money from them.
The sports market has all but dried up and it's not because of a lack of quality images.

By the time the affordable 30MP camera comes around, Phones will be shooting a much higher res as well and probably have a frame grab ability and the problem for sports shooters in selling their work will be much the same as it is now.
Media will probably be paying lower rates still making that avenue still difficult to get a decent time and investment return from.



Jun 21, 2017 at 11:11 PM
cocodrillo
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Remind me again what the networks pay for their TV rights to major sports? With this rig they'll eat the still market, too. Stick an editing team in a back room to clip, crop, transmit the right frames from any one of the many angles at a big event and you're done. Even better, simply license access to the feed to publications and let them do the work. The downward spiral continues.


Jun 22, 2017 at 08:23 AM
ghostwind
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Widgic wrote:
And, to amplify other comments on this thread, these capabilities will further depress the sport photography market as once it's available, capturing the "peak action" moments will just become trivial: just follow the action and when something interesting "happened" (past tense) press the shutter button to push the last few seconds of the continuously recording frame buffer to long term storage memory. Voila!

So yes, in that sense the Red 8X camera is a game changer (albeit an expensive one) for still sport photography.


Yes, it may make peak action shots "trivial", but to be honest, those are not usually the most interesting shots. They are not what will differentiate you from the masses who produce garbage shots as seen most everywhere. Bad compositions, boring compositions, single player with ball, bad backgrounds, etc. Nothing creative about this - it's all technical. So in the future, if you are talented and in a niche market, you will stand out even more.



Jun 22, 2017 at 12:20 PM
Littleguy
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · A real game changer for sports photography: RED 8K video camera?


Widgic wrote:
I started shooting - sports and travel photos in the 80's - with a Nikon FM with the Nikon MD-12 motor drive, 3 prime Nikon lenses, a Vivitar 70-210mm F/3.5 zoom and a monster National flash (you'd burn yourself with that thing if you were not careful).

In the 90s with a friend we bought and shared a Kodak NC2000 that cost close to $20,000 when all taken into account. Performance (2.5 fps, 1600 USO if I remember correctly) was worst than the Nikon film bodies I used at the time, but by then editors where already start to ask for
...Show more

Beautiful pivot - done like the best politicians.

I believe this was the article you were trying to link to.
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2017/06/15/8k-when-stills-motion-converge-without-apologies-or-qualifiers/

The "Game Changer" Vince was referring to was the convergence of stills and video. Yes - I agree that for anything that can be shot at a slow shutter speed or for slow motion videos where you can set a high shutter speed - that converge is here already. 4K video is already a 8 MP image - that's good enough for web, newspaper and some magazine use already.

But for fast action captures - stripping a still image from video that will be used for broadcast purposes isn't going to work - convergence isn't in that space . You will still need a dedicated camera to capture stills and a dedicated camera to capture video for broadcast - sure they can be the same camera model but you will still need 2 cameras and 2 operators because you cannot use the same settings to capture video and still images when trying to capture fast action.

The "Game Changer" can only happen when the settings for video and still image capture converge and you use 1 camera and 1 operator - hence why I don't believe it will happen for fast action sports in a big way. There will always be the special shoots where the settings aren't the generally accepted settings but the rule of thumb settings for video and stills don't match when shooting fast action sports.




Jun 22, 2017 at 03:43 PM







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