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Archive 2017 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))

  
 
JohnK007
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


I am not sure how many people are paying attention to the fact the Nikkor FL ED lenses rank #1 in every category in which they have been introduced.

Everybody likes to talk about "Otus" quality, but 2 out of 3 Zeiss Otus lenses rate below the best Nikkor FL ED lenses.

If you check LenScore, the Nikkor 400 f/2.8 FL ED rates higher than every other lens on the planet, including 2 out of 3 Otus lenses. The new Nikkor 600mm f/4.0 rankes #3. (Only the Zeiss Otus 85mm rates higher, marginally, while the Zeiss Otus 28 and 55 rate lower.)

To give some perspective on how significant the FL ED upgrade has been, the elder Nikkor 400mm f/2.8 rated #16, but the FL ED upgrade bumped it up to #2. Similarly, the elder Nikkor 600mm f/4 rated #9 in LenScore, but the new Nikkor 600 f/4.0 FL ED bumped it to #3.

In every case, in every category, where an FL ED lens has come out, it destroys the competition.
(According to both Roger Cicala and, more recently, Thom Hogan, the new Nikkor 70-200 FL ED is in a class by itself.)

That said, I will bet the FL ED version of the 200mm f/2.0 and the 300mm f/2.8 will push the (current) #1 Zeiss Otus 85mm down to #3, and will occupy LenScores #s 1 and 2, respectively.

It is indisputable that the Nikkor FL ED lenses are the best lenses in the world, occupying the #1 space in their class in every focal length they've come out, and also occupying 4 out of the top 10 lenses in the world, more than double that of Canon, Leica, and Zeiss. Mark my words, when the 200 and 300 versions come out, Nikkor lenses will occupy 6 of the top 10 slots.

Currently, of the top 20 lenses rated on LenScore, Nikkor has 8, Canon 6, Zeiss 3, Leica 2, and Sigma 1.
(Almost all of Canon's offerings occupy the bottom 20, while half of Nikon's occupy the top 10. The Sigma's is the very bottom. The 20th.)

If my prediction is true, and the Nikkor FL ED 200mm and 300mm upgrades perform as expected, that will remove Sigma's entry, as well as a Canon entry, giving Nikon 10 out of the top 20 lenses, which would be double that of Canon, and equal to Canon + Leica + Zeiss combined ...

Just for some perspective ...

Edited on Jun 17, 2017 at 12:37 PM · View previous versions



Jun 17, 2017 at 11:36 AM
molson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


JohnK007 wrote:
I am not sure how many people are paying attention to the fact the Nikkor FL ED lenses rank #1 in every category in which they have been introduced.

Everybody likes to talk about "Otus" quality, but 2 out of 3 Zeiss Otus lenses rate below the best Nikkor FL ED lenses.

If you check LenScore, the Nikkor 400 f/2.8 FL ED rates higher than every other lens on the planet, including 2 out of 3 Otus lenses. The new Nikkor 600mm f/4.0 rankes #3. (Only the Zeiss Otus 85mm rates higher, marginally, while the Zeiss Otus 28 and 55 rate lower.)

To
...Show more


Now if only Nikon could implement some sort of quality control program, so that owners wouldn't need to keep sending all the great equipment in for recalls and warranty repairs over and over again...

But to answer your question, not many people (aside from Nikon rumour sites) are noticing what Nikon is doing, because most of the market has moved on to more modern mirrorless cameras.



Jun 17, 2017 at 12:13 PM
JohnK007
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


molson wrote:
Now if only Nikon could implement some sort of quality control program, so that owners wouldn't need to keep sending all the great equipment in for recalls and warranty repairs over and over again...


That is just BS derision from a hater.

Do you actually own Nikon equipment? I'll bet not.

I have over $30,000 invested with Nikon, and only one item ever went in for repair ... a D500 ... which was handled by Nikon, and returned to my door, in 7 business days.



molson wrote:
But to answer your question, not many people (aside from Nikon rumour sites) are noticing what Nikon is doing, because most of the market has moved on to more modern mirrorless cameras.


More BS derision from an anti-fan. MOST people who shoot high-end gear have DSLRs.

Yes, the mirrorless market "is growing" ... but it damned sure isn't dominant, not by a longshot.

Go away fool and stop trying to detract from the point.

The point is Nikkor FL ED lenses are simply the best in the world ... so if you're shooting mirrorless and telephoto you're using subpar lenses by comparison.

Watch as they continue to come out ...



Jun 17, 2017 at 12:26 PM
molson
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


JohnK007 wrote:
That is just BS derision from a hater.

Do you actually own Nikon equipment? I'll bet not.


Not any more - I got tired of sending everything away to Nikon Canada for weeks (or months) at a time waiting for them to fix things that left the factory with defects... but if you check the various Nikon images threads, you can probably still find some of my work there.



I have over $30,000 invested with Nikon, and only one item ever went in for repair ... a D500 ... which was handled by Nikon, and returned to my door, in 7 business days.


I see you're just dabbling in Nikon... I had a lot more Nikon gear than that back when I used that system.



More BS derision from an anti-fan. MOST people who shoot high-end gear have DSLRs.

Yes, the mirrorless market "is growing" ... but it damned sure isn't dominant, not by a longshot.

Go away fool and stop trying to detract from the point.

The point is Nikkor FL ED lenses are simply the best in the world ... so if you're shooting mirrorless and telephoto you're using subpar lenses by comparison.

Watch as they continue to come out ...



The reason the mirrorless market is growing is because Nikon's market is shrinking (and Canon is maintaining a stead share). It's sad to see, as I was a Nikon owner and enthusiast for many years, but I'm also a realist.



Jun 17, 2017 at 01:24 PM
bs kite
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


To Mr JohnK007:

You are not the first to note the new positions of these Nikon FL lenses.

1. There are past FM threads that brought attention to those Lenscrores and the positions that NIkkor FL's now occupy.

2. Regarding the upcoming new 300 2.8, there are past FM threads pointing out that Nikon is probably holding back the 300 2.8 FL announcement for good reason. We already expect that it will surpass existing 300 2.8's by enough margin to really cause people to stop and reconsider their long lens strategies. I agree. I think they are going to announce it next month. Just a guess though. Combined with the D500 and the new TC's and I may change my thinking. Right now I am quite happy with this 200-500 though.

3. And let us not forget that Canon occupied the very top spots with their II series superteles for a very long time.

4. I may be wrong, but I think we will all agree that Canon was the first to use fluorite over glass in some of their super tele elements. So Nikon, though they surely tried, could not catch Canon resolution until they finally began copying Canon by substituting certain glass elements with fluorite ones. Am I wrong? I am not sure. I am sure that Canon is working like beavers right now to retake the lead. The competition of the two make it better for all of us.

Robert









Jun 17, 2017 at 01:28 PM
sandy27000
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


In the meantime, while this crisis develops on this thread, I am really enjoying the 70-200 FL and 500 FL. Don't care how these have got rated, how mirrorless is doing (have the XT-2 on order by the way) and what Canon is doing or will do.

Look forward to the 300mm f2.8 FL



Jun 17, 2017 at 01:44 PM
bs kite
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


. You are right Sandy. And thanks for that. I can calm down now and go shoot some Goldfinches out my window with my 200-500.

I like your attitude.

thanks

Robert



Jun 17, 2017 at 01:53 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


bs kite wrote:
To Mr JohnK007:

You are not the first to note the new positions of these Nikon FL lenses.

1. There are past FM threads that brought attention to those Lenscrores and the positions that NIkkor FL's now occupy.

2. Regarding the upcoming new 300 2.8, there are past FM threads pointing out that Nikon is probably holding back the 300 2.8 FL announcement for good reason. We already expect that it will surpass existing 300 2.8's by enough margin to really cause people to stop and reconsider their long lens strategies. I agree. I think they are going to announce it
...Show more

Funny you refer to such past threads about LensScore site that eventually deteriorated into a ridiculous thread and saw the OP of this very thread banned from FM before he returned under another user name.....just saying......

Edited on Jun 17, 2017 at 02:49 PM · View previous versions



Jun 17, 2017 at 02:43 PM
Vinnie_VdB
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


sandy27000 wrote:
In the meantime, while this crisis develops on this thread, I am really enjoying the 70-200 FL and 500 FL. Don't care how these have got rated, how mirrorless is doing (have the XT-2 on order by the way) and what Canon is doing or will do.

Look forward to the 300mm f2.8 FL


Hey Sandy, I got also these 2 lenses and oh boy, are you right. These 2 lenses, for me, are out of this world. The sharpness is insane and so is the bokeh and speed.
I usually shoot with other people in hides, jeeps, ..., people I haven't met before and yes, I look sideways what gear they use but I do not start gear discussions. I can only hope we are all happy with the gear we are using and if this is a Sony for one, a Canon for the other or Nikon for myself, all good to me .



Jun 17, 2017 at 02:46 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


JohnK007 wrote:
I am not sure how many people are paying attention to the fact the Nikkor FL ED lenses rank #1 in every category in which they have been introduced.

Everybody likes to talk about "Otus" quality, but 2 out of 3 Zeiss Otus lenses rate below the best Nikkor FL ED lenses.

If you check LenScore, the Nikkor 400 f/2.8 FL ED rates higher than every other lens on the planet, including 2 out of 3 Otus lenses. The new Nikkor 600mm f/4.0 rankes #3. (Only the Zeiss Otus 85mm rates higher, marginally, while the Zeiss Otus 28 and 55 rate lower.)

To
...Show more

I know you are a big fan of those LensScore numbers. But the real life differences between any of those lenses in centre sharpness where birders care is so minute that it makes no difference and no one could tell them apart in actual image comparisons. Anyone who buys into a system based off of those scores (say between Canon 600II and Nikon 600FL) are doing themselves a disservice as it will have no impact on their photography. I'd choose based on the entire selection of lenses available for your type of shooting and the cameras available. Not to mention other issues that Molson brings up about Service.

The 70-200 E FL is maybe a bit of an outlier to the above statements because it does significantly outperform others in the corners and somewhat in the centre.



Jun 17, 2017 at 02:48 PM
JohnK007
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


bs kite wrote:
To Mr JohnK007:
You are not the first to note the new positions of these Nikon FL lenses.

1. There are past FM threads that brought attention to those Lenscrores and the positions that NIkkor FL's now occupy.


I am sure that's true. However, I have never seen any thread underscore Nikon's total domination in this regard.



bs kite wrote:
2. Regarding the upcoming new 300 2.8, there are past FM threads pointing out that Nikon is probably holding back the 300 2.8 FL announcement for good reason. We already expect that it will surpass existing 300 2.8's by enough margin to really cause people to stop and reconsider their long lens strategies. I agree. I think they are going to announce it next month. Just a guess though. Combined with the D500 and the new TC's and I may change my thinking. Right now I am quite happy with this 200-500 though.


We agree.



bs kite wrote:
3. And let us not forget that Canon occupied the very top spots with their II series superteles for a very long time.


Totally disagree.

Canon's 400 II was in the lead, but the Canon 300 II and 600 II were pretty much even with Nikkor's 300 and 600 VR IIs. (Meanwhile, Canon's 200 II is significantly behind Nikons 200 VR II.)

Never has one company totally dominated the super-telephoto segment like Nikon's FL ED is dominating now.

So I thought this fact bared mention



bs kite wrote:
4. I may be wrong, but I think we will all agree that Canon was the first to use fluorite over glass in some of their super tele elements. So Nikon, though they surely tried, could not catch Canon resolution until they finally began copying Canon by substituting certain glass elements with fluorite ones. Am I wrong? I am not sure. I am sure that Canon is working like beavers right now to retake the lead. The competition of the two make it better for all of us.
Robert


Wrong. Nikon didn't "copy," they improved.

Canon uses flourITE, Nikon uses flourINE.

Nikon's original technology delivers higher durability and is more peel-resistant. Compared to Canon's similar effort, Nikon's fluorine coat endures a higher frequency of lens surface wiping and provides longer-duration staying power. And, as the stats reflect, it also produces better images.



Jun 17, 2017 at 02:48 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


sandy27000 wrote:
In the meantime, while this crisis develops on this thread, I am really enjoying the 70-200 FL and 500 FL. Don't care how these have got rated, how mirrorless is doing (have the XT-2 on order by the way) and what Canon is doing or will do.

Look forward to the 300mm f2.8 FL


Exactly you are enjoying the system as a whole and not looking at tiny differences found in detailed measurebator tests. I've tried to reach out to LensScore five times now over the past 6 months and not once received a reply. I'm not even sure if the site is legit or some guys idea of a good laugh.



Jun 17, 2017 at 02:51 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


JohnK007 wrote:
I am sure that's true. However, I have never seen any thread underscore Nikon's total domination in this regard.


We agree.


Totally disagree.

Canon's 400 II was in the lead, but the Canon 300 II and 600 II were pretty much even with Nikkor's 300 and 600 VR IIs. (Meanwhile, Canon's 200 II is significantly behind Nikons 200 VR II.)

Never has one company totally dominated the super-telephoto segment like Nikon's FL ED is dominating now.

So I thought this fact bared mention


Wrong. Nikon didn't "copy," they improved.

Canon uses flourITE, Nikon uses flourINE.

Nikon's original technology delivers higher durability and is more peel-resistant. Compared to
...Show more

I hope neither of them use Flour in the lenses.....

They both use FluorITE in the lens elements. FluorINE is used on the external coatings of the front element.
https://nikonrumors.com/2014/12/18/direrence-between-nikons-fluorite-lens-and-fluorine-coating.aspx/

Nikon used to have open criticism of FluorITE elements on its website but then realized Canon was right and it was the best and only option to reduce the weight and improve optical qualities in the big lenses. So that is why Nikon changed there mind and decided FluorITE wasn't all that bad after all



Jun 17, 2017 at 02:53 PM
JohnK007
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


arbitrage wrote:
I know you are a big fan of those LensScore numbers. But the real life differences between any of those lenses in centre sharpness where birders care is so minute that it makes no difference and no one could tell them apart in actual image comparisons. Anyone who buys into a system based off of those scores (say between Canon 600II and Nikon 600FL) are doing themselves a disservice as it will have no impact on their photography. I'd choose based on the entire selection of lenses available for your type of shooting and the cameras available. Not to mention
...Show more

If you're talking about the difference between 1373 and 1371, as the difference between the Canon and Nikon 600 IIs, I agree.

However, if you're talking about a rating of 50-100 more, or (god forbid) more than 100 points, then the difference is quite noticeable.

Also the rendering from Nikon's FL ED lenses seems to be superior to others.



arbitrage wrote:
The 70-200 E FL is maybe a bit of an outlier to the above statements because it does significantly outperform others in the corners and somewhat in the centre.


Case in point. Many have noticed a superior rendering as well.



Jun 17, 2017 at 03:17 PM
molson
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


JohnK007 wrote:
Nikon uses flourINE.


But is it gluten-free flour?



Jun 17, 2017 at 03:25 PM
Zach-55
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


All that you say is fine, but what really matters is that you could not tell apart pictures taken with TOP 10 or even TOP 20 lenses listed at LenScore.

So ... in fact it does not matter if some lens is #1 or #7 or #17, end result in real life will be the same as we are talking about numerous extremely expensive top of the line high performing lenses where sample variation will have greater impact to image quality then if lens has #1 or #5 score at LenScore.

Btw., I am Nikon shooter owning lenses like Nikkor 200mm f2.0 and 300mm f2.8, but I do not care at all if those two lenses are #1, #9 or #21 on any list. What really matters is how much I like output they give me in the field.

JohnK007 wrote:
I am not sure how many people are paying attention to the fact the Nikkor FL ED lenses rank #1 in every category in which they have been introduced.

Everybody likes to talk about "Otus" quality, but 2 out of 3 Zeiss Otus lenses rate below the best Nikkor FL ED lenses.

If you check LenScore, the Nikkor 400 f/2.8 FL ED rates higher than every other lens on the planet, including 2 out of 3 Otus lenses. The new Nikkor 600mm f/4.0 rankes #3. (Only the Zeiss Otus 85mm rates higher, marginally, while the Zeiss Otus 28 and 55 rate lower.)

To
...Show more




Jun 17, 2017 at 03:26 PM
molson
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


arbitrage wrote:
FluorINE is used on the external coatings of the front element.
https://nikonrumors.com/2014/12/18/direrence-between-nikons-fluorite-lens-and-fluorine-coating.aspx/



Fluorine is a toxic yellow gas under normal conditions... I thought those new FL-E lenses smelled funny.



Jun 17, 2017 at 03:27 PM
brian_sp
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


nikon canada has a repair center
funny, never once had to send any nikon equipment in, even after its been dropped it just keeps working dating all the way back to my FM and FE bodies

Edited on Jun 17, 2017 at 03:32 PM · View previous versions



Jun 17, 2017 at 03:31 PM
JohnK007
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


Zach-55 wrote:
All that you say is fine, but what really matters is that you could not tell apart pictures taken with TOP 10 or even TOP 20 lenses listed at LenScore.

So ... in fact it does not matter if some lens is #1 or #7 or #17, end result in real life will be the same as we are talking about numerous extremely expensive top of the line high performing lenses where sample variation will have greater impact to image quality then if lens has #1 or #5 score at LenScore.

Btw., I am Nikon shooter owning lenses like Nikkor 200mm
...Show more

You can say "it doesn't matter," but in fact it does.

That's like saying, "I don't care how fast the car goes, or how it handles, I just want to win the race."

Well ... um ... how fast a car goes, and how it handles, directly affect your performance in the race

So it is with lenses when you speak of things like resolution, bokeh, contrast, how the lens handles CA, etc.

So saying, "It doesn't matter," is nonsense, ultimately, because it very much does matter to your field results.

As with race car driving, user skill matters also, but even the best driver in the world isn't going to beat an average driver in a Porsche while he himself is driving a Toyota Corolla.



Jun 17, 2017 at 03:31 PM
Zach-55
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · (( Nikkor 'FL ED' Lenses = The Very Best in the World ))


Hey, do NOT misinterpret my words, don't take them out of context, I clearly am saying it does not matter if lens is #1 or #7, you will NOT be able to tell the difference in real life shooting as difference in IQ is minuscule between #1 and #7 lens. Read again my reply, I am not talking about #1 and #111 difference here, so your reply does not add much to this matter, and your comparison with cars is pointless the way you put it (Porsche vs. Toyota Corolla).

Take two different top performing race cars (Porsche vs. Ferrari or Lamborgini or similar top tier car), with only 1% real difference in performance, run them for ten runs, and the winning one will be the one with better driver behind the wheel for any given race.

The same goes for lens with 1376 and another one with 1399 LenScore points rating.

Btw., you sound much like a fanboy, are you aware of that?

JohnK007 wrote:
You can say "it doesn't matter," but in fact it does.

That's like saying, "I don't care how fast the car goes, or how it handles, I just want to win the race."

Well ... um ... how fast a car goes, and how it handles, directly affect your performance in the race

So it is with lenses when you speak of things like resolution, bokeh, contrast, how the lens handles CA, etc.

So saying, "It doesn't matter," is nonsense, ultimately, because it very much does matter to your field results.

As with race car driving, user skill matters also, but even the best
...Show more




Jun 17, 2017 at 04:38 PM
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