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CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]
  
 
bushwacker
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


_manny_ wrote:
The photo of the metal outhouse is at f1.4 and suggests a very well corrected lens with quite neutral bokeh although it doesn't appear to have that same dramatic fall off in focus that marked out the Rollei/Contax Zeiss although the Milvus has a nicer bokeh.



I noticed at that distance... Classic's 1.4/35 bokeh is more blurrier or fuzzier




Jun 21, 2017 at 10:01 AM
philber
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


bushwacker wrote:
I noticed at that distance... Classic's 1.4/35 bokeh is more blurrier or fuzzier



+1. I would have expected the blur to be more.



Jun 21, 2017 at 10:18 AM
_manny_
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


It's interesting how a number of characteristics come together to give different lenses their "look".

The Contax 35 was quite well corrected and didn't have the smoothest of bokeh, at times it could be harsh but it was very out of focus even at medium distances and the fall off from the subject is dramatic. Thus it had a very spectacular rendering even if the bokeh itself wasn't the smoothest type. As bushwhacker alluded to it could be both blurrier and fuzzier in the background - it would be more out of focus even if that bokeh was a bit harsh.

The ZE 35/1.4 is almost completely the reverse, very gradual fall off with a very smooth and elegant bokeh but not very well corrected and lacking bite at f/1.4. Those sort of lenses often step down well though; the ZE 35/1.4 is wonderful for landscapes at f/5.6.

Of course we should be careful about drawing too many conclusions from a few samples but it certainly looks like the Milvus is an attempt to balance those approaches, it trades just a tiny bit of the ZE bokeh for a look with quite bit more pop to it. It looks elegant and very balanced though I think the size and weight might put some off considering Canon's 35L II is very similar and has autofocus.

I remain mystified as to why they don't re-release a modern version of the Contax lens. The ZE 28/2 matches the Contax 28/2 design's optics so it can be done in some cases - it has the same downsides and I realise wouldn't hold up for pixel peeping on a future 100 MP camera but I think most who buy Zeiss lenses buy for "artistic" reasons first and foremost. The 21/2.8 design has essentially survived Contax-ZE-Milvus. It was an iconic lens as was the Contax 35/1.4. How curious that now for two generations they have refused to bring back one of their greatest designs. I suppose it's good news for the collectors who sell them on eBay!



Jun 21, 2017 at 10:29 AM
bushwacker
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]




_manny_ wrote:
It's interesting how a number of characteristics come together to give different lenses their "look".

The Contax 35 was quite well corrected and didn't have the smoothest of bokeh, at times it could be harsh but it was very out of focus even at medium distances and the fall off from the subject is dramatic. Thus it had a very spectacular rendering even if the bokeh itself wasn't the smoothest type. As bushwhacker alluded to it could be both blurrier and fuzzier in the background - it would be more out of focus even if that bokeh was a bit harsh.

The
...Show more

they might revive the contax 1.4/35 in the Otus form.

Remember Lloyd chambers got the pre production unit... But I am sure zeiss and him already got the agreement to publish the results which means the pre production he got is the same configuration as the for sale/production units.



Jun 21, 2017 at 12:17 PM
bushwacker
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


Oh boy this is another $2000 dollar spending.


Jun 21, 2017 at 12:20 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


I just met up with Lloyd yesterday to buy one of his R lenses he was selling and he mentioned to me his lenspire review of new Milvus 35/1.4. His review summarizes what he told me. Color correction is almost Otus 28 level and stopped down it is much sharper then ze/zf 35/1.4 with good microcontrast for good pop.
This lens is pretty heavy, probably too much for A7R2 folk.
Unless this lens is much sharper stopped down than my Otus 28, I am probably ok with just the 28.The Canon 35/1.4L mk2 might be interesting to get for wide open portrait type shooting with AF.
I think Zeiss mentioned awhile back they wanted to go in direction of slow transition from focus to OOF instead of their fast transition classics like Contax 35/1.4 and 100/2 planar. I have both those lenses and love their rendering.
I was never a fan of the ze/zf 35/1.4 but from what I hear about the Milvus so far it sounds better to me.



Jun 21, 2017 at 12:26 PM
_manny_
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


bushwacker wrote:
they might revive the contax 1.4/35 in the Otus form.

Remember Lloyd chambers got the pre production unit... But I am sure zeiss and him already got the agreement to publish the results which means the pre production he got is the same configuration as the for sale/production units.



I suppose we are so spoilt for choice these days that I must find silly things to complain about! But still I am a bit confused really about the division of Milvus and Otus and this looks to be another Milvus lens chasing optical "perfection" perhaps just slightly less extremely than the Otus. I think they could have kept the more "artistic" lenses in the Milvus line.

For example I would love to see an updated version of the Contax and ZE 28/2. It's a lens that always does badly in tests due to field curvature but that very characteristic gives it a very special rendering. It clearly is ready for an update to cope with newer resolutions and I understand why the Otus 28mm lens was an all new design but I would buy a Milvus 28/2 that kept the old optical formula and simply brought it up to current standards for resolution and contrast/color etc.

Really I also think we probably all have to wait and see some more thorough testing - from two different sample sets, one of them shot largely at f/2+ and the other a limited set from Lloyd, no concrete conclusions can be drawn. I am sure you're right though that the lens they gave him will be essentially the same as the one finally sold in shops.


Edited on Jun 21, 2017 at 01:36 PM · View previous versions



Jun 21, 2017 at 01:26 PM
_manny_
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


wayne seltzer wrote:
I just met up with Lloyd yesterday to buy one of his R lenses he was selling and he mentioned to me his lenspire review of new Milvus 35/1.4. His review summarizes what he told me. Color correction is almost Otus 28 level and stopped down it is much sharper then ze/zf 35/1.4 with good microcontrast for good pop.
This lens is pretty heavy, probably too much for A7R2 folk.
Unless this lens is much sharper stopped down than my Otus 28, I am probably ok with just the 28.The Canon 35/1.4L mk2 might be interesting to get for wide open
...Show more


That's interesting to read. What you wrote and what he told you really chimes with the photos currently shown. The most obvious comparison of a currently available lens with this lens seems to be the Canon 35L II. The photos posted so far really remind me of that lens - and I mean that in no bad way, I think it's probably the best prime wider than 85 the Canon has ever made. Canon clearly paid huge attention to performance across the frame at f/1.4 and also the colours and transitions are very nice.

It's also interesting that you mention "Otus like" colour correction - that was the other thought I had when I saw the samples - this is what I would have guessed an Otus 35 would render like - i.e sharp, neutral, clear, micro-contrast.

I didn't realise Zeiss had made a declaration about taking a different approach but it does seem to be the case; they are moving in the direction of gentler, more elegant renderings. There isn't a right and wrong in this of course. One thing I often notice is that those lenses that have that spectacular fall off in focus and contrast at f/1.4 often don't seem to benefit as much when stepped down. A good example would be the ZE 35/2 - great wide open - vs the ZE 35/1.4 - less stellar wide open - but when stepped down, the 1.4 seems to have a better rendering, less crunchy, less harsher and letting the micro contrast breathe. As Zeiss continues to chase optical perfection perhaps their guess is their lenses will increasingly be used for landscapes and fine art so they are taking this route. After all the Canon 35L II is so good that when it comes to anything involving people many photographers will likely now take the AF option from Canon so Zeiss must seek out a different niche.

I won't lie though and deny that it disappoints me - the Contax/Rollei 35/1.4 and the ZE 100/2 are two examples of the very rendering that brought me to Zeiss an I am a bit dismayed to find them now going in another direction. Like you I didn't really like the ZE 35/1.4; well it's relative it's beautiful lens with a lovely bokeh but lacked the drama of the Contax lens. And I agree this new lens looks to be an improvement; it rather looks like a ZE 35/1.4 which has been refined and perfected so it's no bad thing really.



Jun 21, 2017 at 01:34 PM
bushwacker
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]




_manny_ wrote:
That's interesting to read. What you wrote and what he told you really chimes with the photos currently shown. The most obvious comparison of a currently available lens with this lens seems to be the Canon 35L II. The photos posted so far really remind me of that lens - and I mean that in no bad way, I think it's probably the best prime wider than 85 the Canon has ever made. Canon clearly paid huge attention to performance across the frame at f/1.4 and also the colours and transitions are very nice.

It's also interesting that you mention "Otus
...Show more

i guess the milvus 1.4/35 like wayne said, it's even have a slower oof transition vs the classic 1.4/35 which is already slower compared to the other classics.

The mtf from zeiss shows a little bit of gap between the two.



Jun 21, 2017 at 02:13 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


_manny_ wrote:
I suppose we are so spoilt for choice these days that I must find silly things to complain about! But still I am a bit confused really about the division of Milvus and Otus and this looks to be another Milvus lens chasing optical "perfection" perhaps just slightly less extremely than the Otus. I think they could have kept the more "artistic" lenses in the Milvus line.

For example I would love to see an updated version of the Contax and ZE 28/2. It's a lens that always does badly in tests due to field curvature but that very characteristic
...Show more

This looks to be a very interesting revision of the lens. Still just one aspherical element, but 5 anomalous partial dispersion elements (APDs), which have virtually eliminated the CA. From the MTF graphs the lens looks a bit sharper wide open and a lot sharper stopped down from the Classic ZE/ZF lens. I think I will probably like this lens and it doesn't look like the screwed up the bokeh from the few samples, but I reserve judgment on that until I see more samples. It looks like a nice companion for the Milvus 85 f/1.4.

If you looks what Zeiss has done with the new Milvus lenses (18 f/2.8; 35 f/1.4; 50 f/1.4; and 85 f/1.4) they have added lots of APD elements and really reduced the amount of CA. They have not created maximum sharpness wide open, however. The Milvus lenses are fairly sharp wide open and very sharp stopped down. This lens fits right into that pattern. The Otus lenses in contrast are sharper wide open and stay blisteringly sharp stopped down. That is the division between Otus and Miluvs (wide open sharpness and removal of a bit more CA for the Otus, but very good to excellent CA control with excellent sharpness stopped down and decent sharpness wide open for the Milvus).

Personally, I am very happy with my Milvus 85 f/1.4 and I think I will be happy with this Milvus 35 f/1.4, but I am also glad I have the Otus 55 f/1.4, which I feel is more noticeably better than the Milvus 50 f/1.4 than the 85 Otus is to the Milvus 85. My guess is that an Otus 35 wouldn't lure me from the Milvus either, especially as I already have the Otus 28. It will be interesting to see if there is an Otus 35. I could see it happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't make one either.



Jun 21, 2017 at 02:33 PM
 

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Andre Y
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


I'm glad they're going after CA in this lens. The samples on Lloyd's site do look very clean (though the Milvus image sample is more forward focused than the other two for the blue tree sample). From its behavior, it reminds me of the 2/135 APO Sonnar more than anything else: neutral bokeh, transparent, gets out of the way.


Jun 21, 2017 at 04:27 PM
_manny_
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


Steve Spencer wrote:
This looks to be a very interesting revision of the lens. Still just one aspherical element, but 5 anomalous partial dispersion elements (APDs), which have virtually eliminated the CA. From the MTF graphs the lens looks a bit sharper wide open and a lot sharper stopped down from the Classic ZE/ZF lens. I think I will probably like this lens and it doesn't look like the screwed up the bokeh from the few samples, but I reserve judgment on that until I see more samples. It looks like a nice companion for the Milvus 85 f/1.4.

If you looks what
...Show more

Interesting to read your experiences - thanks. Your breakdown of the Otus v Milvus line ups does make sense and would fit with the idea of this new 35/1.4 being a very high quality "all rounder". I've only ever tried one Otus lens, the 55 and loved it but wouldn't use it enough to justify buying it. I am gradually hoping to replace ZE lenses with Milvus lenses, even the 21 just as I prefer the new body type really.

I look forward to some more thorough reviews of this Milvus 35/1.4 - it looks like it's going to be a very high quality and refined lens.



Jun 21, 2017 at 04:45 PM
zhangyue
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


The lens looks very impressive. The distortion seems to be on the high side to be OTUS grade. Most of samples shoot at f2 though, this usually will smooth out bokeh a little for WA lens. I wonder why not shoot at f1.4, especially for some images with subject distance more than 3 meter.

It is really big and heavy though make Leica S weight and size almost justified

The shape looks not good.

Interested.



Jun 21, 2017 at 05:02 PM
philber
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


The more I read and see about this lens, the more I hear one calling my name. Even though I have a Otus 28, and even though I have a A7R II, and even though I hate heavy lenses. This one, to me, would be my one-lens bag, if it is good enough to make me leave my Otus at home. My guess is we are very close to Milvus 135 territory.


Jun 21, 2017 at 05:04 PM
bushwacker
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


B&H ready for pre order at $1,999.




Jun 21, 2017 at 05:45 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


Great samples from Lloyd. The side-by-side comparison with the Canon and Zeiss Classic is very helpful.

Which is better is subjective. The new Milvus is better corrected than the Classic, so if you really dislike LoCA, it's without a doubt the best Zeiss choice. For those after the smoothest bokeh and gradual transition zone, the Classic is still one of the best out there.

To my eyes, the new Milvus is the best compromise between color correction, contrast and smooth bokeh. It seems to make everyone happy.



Jun 21, 2017 at 06:50 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


philber wrote:
The more I read and see about this lens, the more I hear one calling my name. Even though I have a Otus 28, and even though I have a A7R II, and even though I hate heavy lenses. This one, to me, would be my one-lens bag, if it is good enough to make me leave my Otus at home. My guess is we are very close to Milvus 135 territory.


Kind of expensive to own both Otus 28 and this milvus 35/1.4 for a small difference in focal length. From what I was getting from talking to Lloyd is that Otus 28 will be sharper and have more microcontrast/pop wide open than the Milvus 35/1.4 but stopped down to f4 or more the Milvus increases microcontrast and is very sharp. So it matters if you shooting style/ preference is more wide open or not whether you will prefer on or the other.
Also not sure if there is enough of a size/weight difference between it and the Otus 28 to be a factor too?
I am hoping zeiss will do a new version 2 of their Milvus 35/2 to cleanup the color correction and mtf to the same level as this new 35/1.4 but be smaller and lighter for landscape work and hiking when I don't want to carry the Otus28.



Jun 21, 2017 at 08:09 PM
philber
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


I agree that it wouldn't make much sense to carry both 24 Otus and 35 Milvus in my everyday bag. I would buy the Milvus either as my one-lens bag, when I want a shoot-anything lens wider than my Otus 55, or in tandem with my 85 GM for two-lens setup. I find 28-85 too large a gap for my taste, and 28 too wide for one-lens wandering around. But that's just me, and i don't hear Zeiss complaining..:-)
Either that, or purchase another copy of ZM 35 f:1.4



Jun 21, 2017 at 10:18 PM
philip_pj
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


Zeiss's data sheet is up on their site.

At 1130 / 1175 grams, it's as heavy as expected, Zeiss are continuing to make a stronger distinction between the lenses they make for DSLR and those intended for Sony FE cameras, the weight is again around 200% of their 600 gram top end for Sony. It's ~50% heavier than the Classic.

Sigma level of complexity - 14/11; just one rear asph element, more APD glass at the rear also. Distortion around 1.5%, only deviation comes after mid-frame, and straight barrel form. Light fall-off is interesting, much the same figures at edges as the Classic ZEF, but holds on longer before falling away.

Performance is pure new Zeiss. It has a very large increase at f1.4 for all spatial frequencies compared to the Classic 35/1.4; fine detail is kept low and curvature is minimal. At f4 it is a monster everywhere, some slight fall off in very corners. It's stronger at f4 than Leica's 50AA is at f5.6. It's close to exactly the Otus 28mm wide open, but with greater outer frame decline. Both at f4, the situation is reversed, the M35 is stronger across the frame, no drop from curvature at 15mm image height. It has about the highest 20 lpmm I've yet seen, around 94%. So it's a champion, up at that level.

Looking forward to a host of images...who's buying?




Jun 21, 2017 at 10:36 PM
Andre Y
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · CR: Zeiss 1.4/35 Milvus? [ Now in Zeiss.com ]


Not me: my pennies are pre-allocated for the Nikon 28E, assuming my own tests confirm Nikon's claims.

The new 35/1.4 is a very nice indicator of Zeiss's direction though. Not that the 25/2 is bad (I think it is very good), but I wonder if they have any plans of bringing some of this goodness to a wider FOV.



Jun 21, 2017 at 11:12 PM
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