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New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thun...
  
 
rbf_
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


Anyone see the products released by Apple today? I'm particularly impressed by the iMac Pro with an up to 18 core Xeon, 128GB RAM, 4 TB3 ports and the new Radeon Vega card. I'm also glad they are officially getting into eGPU enclosures for boosting laptop graphics performance. They've also announce a new filesystem, APFS that should be interesting.

They also dropped the price on more entry level models I believe the 13 macbook pro retina and 4k iMac 21.5 are both starting at $1299 now. It was a pretty big product release.

https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/










Edited on Jun 13, 2017 at 01:09 AM · View previous versions



Jun 06, 2017 at 01:38 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


Time will tell.


Jun 06, 2017 at 02:27 AM
speedmaster20d
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


I have the current generation mac pro (cylinder) and while it has been working for me it has been obsolete for several years now and struggles to massage 30+ mega pixel files.

Unfortunately I don't find the new one an attractive option to upgrade. It looks like they chose "style" yet again over function. The machine is not upgradable and while it looks good now in a year or two will be obsolete when Intel moves to 10nm technology or when new GPU's come out. I am skeptical about the performance of the ATI GPU, no CUDA support and I prefer to use my 32" NEC 4K monitor with dedicated hardware calibration and multiple inputs rather than the 27" glossy screen of the iMac. Also with everything cramped into the back of the monitor this thing will heat up under heavy load and probably make the high core CPU's to throttle down. Only 4 USB3 ports is also a drag. I like to use a high DPI mouse, a drawing tablet, wide-format printer and multiple card readers... it doesn't have enough ports. Only one LAN is also disappointing, current mac pro has two which can speed things up the you are using your own NAS.


It also looks like if you spec it up just a bit it will cost something like 7-9 grand, with this price you can get much higher performance machine if you build it your own. As much as I hate Windows Apple is not going to get my money again for this so-called pro machine.





Jun 06, 2017 at 02:29 AM
rbf_
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


The new thunderbolt 3 protocol allows for eGPU support and they do have 4 40gbps TB3 ports( so 120gbps combined which can be split to multi port docks). So i think it's not as bad as the cylinder version where you cannot upgrade the graphics. I took a quick look at the motherboard and it looks like they are using normal memory dimms as well. I'm not familiar with the iMac lineup internals enough to know whether the cpu can be upgraded or not but wouldn't be surprised if you can't. But if you can upgrade the memory, gpu via eGPU and storage via TB3 connected storage (ip runs over TB) I think you're not as limited as in past models.

It also supports up to 2 external 5k displays so you could certainly drive your current display alongside it as a multi-head system.

I do think they would be doing better had they just kept making the old form factor Mac Pro though. If it ain't broke..



Jun 06, 2017 at 02:50 AM
rbf_
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure



The 18 core Xeon 2.3Ghz is going for around $3k on amazon for build it yourself adventures

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Computer-CPU-2-3-BX80660E52697V4/dp/B01CNKF3A6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496722073&sr=8-1&keywords=18+core+xeon



Jun 06, 2017 at 04:11 AM
Oscarsmadness
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


I'd get this iMac Pro over the trashcan. Just sayin


Jun 06, 2017 at 04:15 AM
speedmaster20d
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


My desk isn't large enough for 2 huge monitors so it would be awkward to put the iMac under the desk in order to use my screen. I have never used an eGPU not sure if it will work with Nvidia GTX or Tesla series, still needs the driver, and is not going to be as fast native PCI-E 3.0 X16 that you get on a typical motherboard, plus it's a bit awkward to have yet another box with fan and all that, why would one want to distribute all the components around your workstation.

I saw this article though which hints they are still working on a real Mac pro based on a modular system for 2018, if that is true then I wonder who will even bother buying the iMac "pro". probably not a wise investment.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/new-mac-pro-2018-latest-rumours-release-date-uk-price-features-specs-3536364/





Jun 06, 2017 at 04:18 AM
speedmaster20d
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


rbf_ wrote:
The 18 core Xeon 2.3Ghz is going for around $3k on amazon for build it yourself adventures

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Computer-CPU-2-3-BX80660E52697V4/dp/B01CNKF3A6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496722073&sr=8-1&keywords=18+core+xeon



I think it will still be siginficantly cheaper to build yourself as the starting price for the iMac is 5K for quad core CPU, the 18 core is probably 10-12K or more just like the 8 core trashcan when it came out.

This CPU is not what I would choose for my RAW processing any way. The RAW conversion programs and photoshop cannot take advantage of more than 4 cores, usually a high clock quad core readily beats a lower clock 6 core for RAW and PS, and for video it's really the GPU that makes the difference. My current Mac pro has a 6 core xeon which I find slower to render and process RAW's compared to my laptop which has 3.9 GHz quad core. I am sure it still has a market somewhere but there are better options if you are photographer and can put up with Windows frustrations.


Edited on Jun 06, 2017 at 04:31 AM · View previous versions



Jun 06, 2017 at 04:27 AM
rbf_
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


speedmaster20d wrote:
My desk isn't large enough for 2 huge monitors so it would be awkward to put the iMac under the desk in order to use my screen. I have never used an eGPU not sure if it will work with Nvidia GTX or Tesla series, still needs the driver, and is not going to be as fast native PCI-E 3.0 X16 that you get on a typical motherboard, plus it's a bit awkward to have yet another box with fan and all that, why would one want to distribute all the components around your workstation.

I saw this article though which
...Show more

It really sounds like you are better off waiting the new Mac Pro or considering the OSX->Windows switch if you cannot wait. I have heard that they are redesigning the Mac Pro as I know they've had a lot of negative feedback about the lack of upgradeability and certainly the sales haven't been good from what I've heard. I do see the iMac Pro as a positive step for them as a more serious machine that's current and in their lineup. The new macbook pros are very nice as well with 4 TB3 ports but I've got a 2014 that's still holding it's own, albeit barely. Hopefully they will design a standard, upgradeable, expandable workstation like the old 'cheese-grater' Mac Pro's for people who need that flexibility and extendability. It's really a shame this "non upgradability" mentality overtook decision makers as I know it has hurt their customers as well as the company reputation itself.




Edited on Jun 06, 2017 at 04:42 AM · View previous versions



Jun 06, 2017 at 04:30 AM
rbf_
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


speedmaster20d wrote:
I think it will still be siginficantly cheaper to build yourself as the starting price for the iMac is 5K for quad core CPU, the 18 core is probably 10-12K or more just like the 8 core trashcan when it came out.

This CPU is not what I would choose for my RAW processing any way. The RAW conversion programs and photoshop cannot take advantage of more than 4 cores, usually a high clock quad core readily beats a lower clock 6 core for RAW and PS, and for video it's really the GPU that makes the difference. My current
...Show more

The standard CPU is an 8 core version of the same generation of Xeon, which is very new. It will certainly be more for the 18 core. The 4 core i7 version of the iMac is much cheaper than the iMac Pro albeit with lesser graphics. I don't buy machines for just one purpose though myself. I have several different workloads I consider of which photographic post processing an important one. I would also expect raw processing software to evolve to take advantage of current hardware parallelism or become obsolete and fall out of favor.



Jun 06, 2017 at 04:34 AM
 

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speedmaster20d
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


rbf_ wrote:
It really sounds like you are better off waiting the new Mac Pro or considering the OSX->Windows switch if you cannot wait. I have heard that they are redesigning the Mac Pro as I know they've had a lot of negative feedback about the lack of upgradeability and certainly the sales haven't been good from what I've heard. I do see the iMac Pro as a positive step for them as a more serious machine that's current and in their lineup. The new macbook pros are very nice as well with 4 TB3 ports but I've got a 2014 that's
...Show more

You are right, maybe I am also a bit frustrated with Apple recently. Two months ago I bought the late 2016 MBP (15.4"), I got the mid-tier (2.7GHz with 455 2GB GPU). The first two laptops had mechanical problems (keyboard and overheating). I had to exchange it twice. It now works and I have been using it on a few jobs, overall it doesn't improve much on its predecessor as a tool for a working professional. It's lighter, has a better screen and larger touch pad, and I do like the keyboard better but it's not any faster and even a bit slower for crunching 4K video than my old one (my old MBP had Nvidia). The battery life is about 30%-35% shorter because of the smaller battery that made the laptop thinner. It also runs warmer than the old machine most likely because of the smaller space. I don't have SD card slot anymore and the USB dongles are annoying. Apple need to realize some people don't just want a thin piece of modern art, they want horse power and functionality first...any ways, if I were to do it again I'd probably stick with the old one for what I do. Maybe I am wrong but I sense they have lost direction after Jobs. I totally agree the previous generation of MBP's were stellar and better than anything else on the market at the time they came out. I switched from Windows to Mac primarily because the laptops were so much better at that time.

you are right my bad the entry level is 8-cores. Not all code can be made more parallel though the 6 and 8 core CPU's have been around for a while now but PS (even the latest) cannot really use more than 4 this site has a nice comparison.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Adobe-Photoshop-CC-Multi-Core-Performance-625/


anyways, I wish they do make a Mac Pro in near future before I get a higher MP camera



Jun 06, 2017 at 04:57 AM
rbf_
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


speedmaster20d wrote:
You are right, maybe I am also a bit frustrated with Apple recently. Two months ago I bought the late 2016 MBP (15.4"), I got the mid-tier (2.7GHz with 455 2GB GPU). The first two laptops had mechanical problems (keyboard and overheating). I had to exchange it twice. It now works and I have been using it on a few jobs, overall it doesn't improve much on its predecessor as a tool for a working professional. It's lighter, has a better screen and larger touch pad, and I do like the keyboard better but it's not any faster and even
...Show more

I hear what you're saying about the recent model macbook pro I really love the machine although I had real reservations about the proprietary SSD interface and soldered ram. I got the crystalwell equipped version not expecting much for graphics performance and it really blew me away at how performant it was in fact it's handled every task I've thrown at it so far even ones I didn't expect it too I think it is my favorite computer ever, just a swiss army knife I'm also a bit perplexed by the desire to continually shrink the size of the computer for no useful reason and to the detriment of desired functionality, we already have smaller models it really serves no purpose whatsoever to an end user. In fact it's increasingly annoying to many. I was really hoping the form factor would stay the same and we would get better battery life with more efficient chips, maybe 15+ hours and a perf boost. I was hoping they would switch the m.2 SSD interface since off the shelf parts have caught up in performance and cost half as much as Apple proprietary SSD's. I was also hoping for a new model with the "crystalwell" EDRAM module since it was so power efficient and nearly as good as a discrete GPU. They did deliver on the thunderbolt 3 ports however as four of them really gives you the I/O to have a laptop that can handle desktop like tasks via peripherals. All said and done I like the new macbook pro but their continuing fascination of shrinking expensive "work computers" to the detriment of functionality and performance is really troubling to me. I'll be picking up a new macbook pro laptop sometime soon I'll probably get the OWC storage extension that makes it thicker, heavier and adds a couple of TB of SSD too

I'm afraid you're going to get more frustrated because I've read the iMac Pro is rumored to *not* have user upgradeable RAM. This is an a problem for a desktop machine in this price range.

Note that this is a machine that would be high on my *want to buy* list with upgradeable RAM, upgradeable SSD (not even M.2 that would be gravy) and not much else, even with just the RAM. I would prioritize the 18 core since parallel hardware is the attraction and get as much storage & RAM as I could afford knowing I would upgrade later. Given their model of having to choose up front the initial cost and lack of later upgradeability will mean this will never make the radar of most.





Edited on Jun 10, 2017 at 03:06 AM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2017 at 02:25 AM
Oscarsmadness
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


The iMac Pro is geared toward video and VR content creators, not necessarily LR wizards, so it's no surprise that the lot of you don't like it. I personally think it's overkill for my purposes (I'm a LR wizard-wannabe). It's still more powerful than what I'm using now, so if I had oodles of money I would buy one and be very happy. If I was to do pro 3D rendering, I think I would appreciate it far more.

I share your frustrations regarding upgradability. Apple makes it unnecessarily difficult and expensive. Apple says upgrades and expansion should be done through the Thunderbolt interfaces, which hasn't been a half-tasty solution for anyone so far. They had that attitude toward the trashcan, and I don't think that they have learned from that. What could work to increase Thunderbolt adoption is USB-C. USB-C and Thunderbolt now share the same plugs. Regardless I still agree that a pro computer should be user-serviceable no questions asked.

I'd love to get a MBP, one that is used or refurb from before this Touch Bar nonsense rolled out.



Jun 07, 2017 at 04:53 AM
rbf_
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


Oscarsmadness wrote:
The iMac Pro is geared toward video and VR content creators, not necessarily LR wizards, so it's no surprise that the lot of you don't like it. I personally think it's overkill for my purposes (I'm a LR wizard-wannabe). It's still more powerful than what I'm using now, so if I had oodles of money I would buy one and be very happy. If I was to do pro 3D rendering, I think I would appreciate it far more.

I share your frustrations regarding upgradability. Apple makes it unnecessarily difficult and expensive. Apple says upgrades and expansion should be done through
...Show more

I love Thunderbolt and have adopted it extensively but on a workstation class machine you need to be able to upgrade the RAM, SSD density is set to take a quantum jump in the next few years too they're talking 16TB & 32TB 2.5 drives. Just dangerous to not take that into account on a workstation class machine imo. I want to buy it!



Edited on Jun 10, 2017 at 03:07 AM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2017 at 05:15 AM
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


speedmaster20d wrote:
I think it will still be siginficantly cheaper to build yourself as the starting price for the iMac is 5K for quad core CPU, the 18 core is probably 10-12K or more just like the 8 core trashcan when it came out.

This CPU is not what I would choose for my RAW processing any way. The RAW conversion programs and photoshop cannot take advantage of more than 4 cores, usually a high clock quad core readily beats a lower clock 6 core for RAW and PS, and for video it's really the GPU that makes the difference. My current
...Show more

The new 18 core cpu is the Core i9-7980XE running $2000. Assuming you built it matching specs, $2k for cpu, $500 for video, $300 for motherboard, $1300 for memory, $1500 for ssd, $200 for case & fan, your probably still close around $4700 without a monitor and keyboard if your trying to closely match specs. Add in another say $900 for a high quality monitor, $150 for keyboard & mouse, plus windows license, your around $6k. Could save $600 by using the 14 core Core i9-7940X so getting closer. The sweet spot is the 12 core Core i9-7920X at $1200 so this is what I'd build around. The extra cost for buying Apple is Applecare, but overall it's a fairly priced machine assuming you need that much power.

Alot of good stuff coming with hardware, just need software to catchup with all these cores.



Jun 07, 2017 at 08:13 PM
speedmaster20d
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


7890X is an extreme CPU I am not sure if it supports ECC RAM? I thought iMac was Xeon.

I think you might have missed the fact that the starting price for iMac pros is 5K. That comes with the 8 core and probably just a 1 TB SSD and less GDDR memory/lower GPU. Once you spec it up it will be more like 8-10K given how much apple marks up the SSD's and video memory. I remember the loaded mac pro was like 14K back in 2013.

So it is still significantly more expensive than the build-your-own PC. But I do agree Apple has an excellent stable OS, no virus/malware, solid tech support etc. which you are not going to get with microsoft Windows and build your own PC so it's hard to put a value on these aspects.

Also not all code can be made parallel, 8+ core CPU's have been there for a while now. For some applications the nature of the problem allows for great parallelism but for RAW processing I doubt we will see improvement for more than 4-6 cores. At least it is nice to have an option of a high clock 4-6 core high-end desktop CPU for those who don't want the Xeons. The Xeon or usually used for IT infrastructure that require ECC, extreme stability for 24-7 services, data centers or for running large scale scientific calculations in a server farm. Not the best choice for photo and video pro's.

BTW, a good monitor that is made for critical color production/imaging application is about 3K (like the 4K NEC that I use) and usually lasts for a very long time, so to attach the components to a monitor for a pro machine is really stupid IMO. You have to throw out the whole thing when it becomes obsolete.






Edited on Jun 07, 2017 at 10:58 PM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2017 at 08:50 PM
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


That super iMac is $5,000. If I were a pro, I'd want a desktop I can easily upgrade and a monitor I can separately replace, not a package deal that costs a fortune. Actually, even as an amateur I want that. Can't believe Apple has nothing in between the underpowered Mini and the closed-system iMac.


Jun 07, 2017 at 09:52 PM
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


johnvanr wrote:
That super iMac is $5,000. If I were a pro, I'd want a desktop I can easily upgrade and a monitor I can separately replace, not a package deal that costs a fortune. Actually, even as an amateur I want that. Can't believe Apple has nothing in between the underpowered Mini and the closed-system iMac.


Actually a pro does not want to dic around with a system...just plug it in and use it. It's the amateur hobbies come gear geeks that love to constantly fiddle with hardware.



Jun 07, 2017 at 11:01 PM
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


speedmaster20d wrote:
7890X is an extreme CPU I am not sure if it supports ECC RAM? I thought iMac was Xeon.

I think you might have missed the fact that the starting price for iMac pros is 5K. That comes with the 8 core and probably just a 1 TB SSD and less GDDR memory/lower GPU. Once you spec it up it will be more like 8-10K given how much apple marks up the SSD's and video memory. I remember the loaded mac pro was like 14K back in 2013.

So it is still significantly more expensive than the build-your-own PC. But
...Show more

They're claiming it's a Xeon in the iMac Pro which would be consistent with their Mac Pro's. The ECC memory in my Mac Pro's has always run extremely hot and I'm now wondering if that's the reason for the non upgradeable RAM. With the Xeon and all that hardware packed into the iMac they have a cooling problem. I know they've doubled up on the fans and beefed up the cooling but they're probably right up against the wall. I guess it will be a good but pricey option for those who absolutely need the performance right now after the long gap with no new Mac Pro.

I agree with you that having a hyper-converged workstation doesn't make sense but it doesn't make sense for the desktop class either and they sell like hotcakes. It's a very slick machine and I've been tempted by it many times but have managed to resist. Given that I think if they made an iMac Pro that had upgradeable memory that they could have a machine that really sells even if they needed a bit of a form factor change. I think the RAM limitation could help me resist it again even though it will likely be hard at times

There's also been a 18 core Core-X i9 announced and I think that's one mentioned above. That model would not use ECC RAM but has just been announced. Maybe too late for iMac Pro? The standard iMac's are Core i7's...

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/250052-intel-announces-new-core-x-series-including-18-core-i9-cpu

I'm sticking with my macbook pro to eGPU to display plan until the Mac Pro is announced and see how this all plays out. Btw there is an open source raw editor called RawTherapee that recently written from scratch to exploit parallelism it will be interesting to see how it performs on one of these high core count cpu's.





Edited on Jun 08, 2017 at 01:43 AM · View previous versions



Jun 08, 2017 at 01:25 AM
rw11
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · New iMac's, iMac 27 5k, iMac Pro 27 5k, Macbooks and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure


re: The machine is not upgradable

I thought the iMacs were upgradable for memory & storage (??)



Jun 08, 2017 at 01:30 AM
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