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Archive 2017 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

billsamuels
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

EB-1 wrote:
Two filters is excessive at 24 mm.

EBH

I ran some tests tonight and found out a few interesting things:

1. These blue corners only happen with the EF 24-105mm lens. I tried all different combinations using the same equipment on an EF 16-35mm, and an EF 17-40mm and none of these produced the blue corners.

2. I first took full wide angle images with each lens without any filters, I added the first filter to the 16-35mm, which was the 77mm B+W 007 clear. Nothing in the corners with this set-up yet either.

3. Then I added the lens shade for the 24-105mm lens, which fits the other two because they're all Canon and they all have a diameter of 77mm, so no problems here. Still nothing in the corners.

4. Then I added the B+W Circ. Pol onto each lens and STILL nothing, EXCEPT when I added it to the 24-105mm, the four blue corners re-appeared.

5. Now isolating that lens again, I stripped everything off the 24-105mm F/4L. I re-checked the lens and no blue corners. Then I added the B+W clear filter 007 =nothing! And finally, I added the polarizer and I got 4 blue corners. This is where I started over the weekend SO...

6. TO see if STACKING FILTERS was the problem, I removed the clear B+W filter so that ONLY the B+W High Transmission Circular Polarizer filter remained and the filter on that specific lens resulted in...BLUE CORNERS!!!

So to bring it all to a close, it looks as if ONLY the 24-105mm by Canon is affected by this specific high transmission B+W circ. pol filter, whether or not there is another filter on the lens or a lens shade- it didn't matter at all.

Wow, that took some investigations, but it worked in the end and now I know what filter to avoid on the EF 24-105mm lens.
Thanks for all the ideas - it helped me figure out the puzzle.

Edited on Jun 06, 2017 at 04:43 PM · View previous versions

Jun 06, 2017 at 02:20 AM

ted1000
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

charlyw wrote:
I don't know a single professional photographer that downgrades the performance of his/her lens with a useless implement like a clear or UV filter...

You don't know me

If I'm photographing in the rain, especially when windy, I'll use a clear filter to complete the weather sealing of my lens. Canon recommends it. Wouldn't you?

Ted

Jun 06, 2017 at 07:48 AM

Spikey131
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

What a great thread.

A guy comes looking for help and he is berated for being a "rank amateur" and informed that "not a single professional" would do what he did.

Next we will launch into the obligatory UV filters bad/filters good argument....

Stay tuned.

And Bill, I have seen the same thing with my 24-105, even with only one filter. I can usually fix it in post.

Jun 06, 2017 at 09:26 AM

mitesh
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

Spikey131 wrote:
What a great thread.

A guy comes looking for help and he is berated for being a "rank amateur" and informed that "not a single professional" would do what he did.

In all fairness, those comments can be attributed to one specific poster, while other contributors have made an effort to be helpful while also being generally polite.

Jun 06, 2017 at 09:31 AM

Teper
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

Jun 06, 2017 at 09:33 AM

molson
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

billsamuels wrote:
Well, yes. I have an XS clear 007 filter (thin for wide-angle lenses) and then I put the XS Pro Circl Pol over it. B+H claims that you can stack over the XS clear 007 filter with a thin polarizer and it won't cause a problem, but maybe it does cause a problem with certain lenses, but I haven't experienced it with the EF 16-35 or the EF 17-40 either.

You should also have another clear filter on the front of that expensive polarizer, to protect it, too...

Jun 06, 2017 at 11:12 AM

billsamuels
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

Teper wrote:

.. this thread is out of control.. Personally I never stack filters as I believe that anything you put in front of a naked lens regardless of brand or quality will degrade image quality regardless. The reason for the vignette is the stacking of filters.

Happy shooting!

Thanks - please see my comments above. It was NOT due to stacking, it was due to the lens and the filter, which don't seem to combine very well.

Actually, this is a great opportunity to bring up the fact that since last night, I looked up this situation on the internet and apparently this particular first version of the 24-105 Canon lens has a chronic problem with circular polarizers in that people get the exact problem I get WITHOUT stacking filters! I don't use this lens that much because I mostly use either the EF 16-35mm, the EF 70-200mm, or the EF 400mm, but mostly I have been using either Zeiss or Leica lenses because I think they're a heck of a lot better than any of the Canon "L" lenses. But that's another discussion.

Jun 06, 2017 at 04:50 PM

billsamuels
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

In addition to what I said above, the following internet sites talk extensively about the EF 24-105mm F/4L IS lens having extensive problems with vignetting, and specifically with strong cut-out of all four corners using a circular polarizer with or without stacking the filters. In fact, my problem seemed only to occur at 24mm. I started to realize this morning that any photos taken above 24mm also didn't have the corners problem!

Apparently, Canon made some major changes in the second-edition of this lens so that this doesn't occur in the second edition nearly as often, and I do have the first edition because it was a kit lens when I bought the EOS 6D.

Here are the sites that you can confirm that my problem is not me being stupid:
dpreview.com
canonrumors.com
canoncommunity.com
photonet.com
thedigitalpicture.com

In any case, I don't think there's much more to say about this except some have referred to me as an amature photographer. Well, when I was 24, I had my own photography business taking photos for real estate businesses in San Francisco. When I was in my mid 30's to early 40's I had a business with a friend taking photos of jewelry and other high value items for insurance evaluations and documentation in the Sacramento and SF Bay Area.

I don't know every aspect of photography (the college classes I took were 50% darkroom because we used this plastic stuff with emulsion on it that had to be bathed in chemicals) which is why I like FM, but you never know who's at the other end of your computer screen!

Jun 06, 2017 at 05:16 PM

Tom_W
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

I wonder if using a 77 to 82 mm adapter, and subsequently using an 82 mm circular polarizer filter would resolve the issue...

Jun 06, 2017 at 05:24 PM

dgdg
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

Bill
Thanks for sharing your experiences and solutions.

David

Jun 06, 2017 at 08:06 PM

melcat
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

You might try to source a used B+W "slim" Käsemann instead of the XS-Pro. Unfortunately they have been discontinued. Although the XS-Pro is indeed the same height, it has a much wider annulus holding in the glass. On my 77mm, this is roughly 3mm compared to 1.5mm on my 82mm slim.

The glass is only 70mm in diameter (because 6mm is lost to the annulus). The glass on my 82mm slim is 80mm across.

The only problem with the "slim" model is it won't take pinch caps, only a push-on plastic one, which by now I've lost. Of course, you don't really need a cap on a C-POL. In any case, Canon lens caps don't fit properly on the XS-Pro filters; the annulus fouls the pinch clips and the cap doesn't sit snug and dust-tight.

Or, you could try another brand of filter,

Jun 07, 2017 at 03:28 AM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

billsamuels wrote:
When you keep referring to the "clear 007 filter" is there a difference between the clear filter and the B+W UV filter as far as surviving a blunt blow? I hear back and forth about whether it's better to use a filter to protect the front element or not and as many pros use a filter to protect the front element as pros that don't waste their time using one.

probably not . First let me say I'm in the no 'protective' filter camp .
protective filters have their place sometimes . salt spray and blowing sand/dust . yep feel free to whack on a filter . but they are not bullet proof and are less resilient to damage than the element they are supposedly protecting . so if the element was going to be damaged the chances are the filter in front of it would break and give a high chance of element damage due to shards of glass .
but if you use a CPL then your doing so for the effect rather than the protection so while damage is possible you still need the filter

However, my sister, who also shoots weddings and is hired out to shoot people's children, we were walking into a cave a couple of years ago when she hit her EF 50mm F/1.4 on the side of a rock face and shattered the filter, but the lens was fine. I also dropped the same lens last year (I have my own copy of it) causing the AF shaft to warp beyond use, yet the optics were all fine. It was a MF lens until I paid $185 to replace the AF internal shaft and now it works fine.

yep your sisters filter broke but the lens didn't . but that in no way means the lens would have without the filter , its not as if the filter decides to be the sacrifice and break just to save the lens

. and not protective filter is going to stop AF mechanisms breaking

One last comment - last weekend I was shooting some reflections in a forest near Lk Tahoe, but I had to shoot it between a barb wire fence. One of the barbs left a small scratch on the clear filter, but if I didn't have a filter on, that could have caused permanent damage to a very expensive external optic! The B+W filter, if the scratch shows up in my photos, I can just toss and only lost $29.95. I don't want to think what it would have cost me if the lens glass had to be replaced at Canon's repair...Show more →

well that maybe an instance where a filter could help but you'll be surprised at what it can take to scratch a lens element .

Long story short don't stack filters . if you want to run around with protection then take it off if you want a CPL

Jun 07, 2017 at 08:41 AM

tntcorp
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

bills - looked like you may have found the culprit... but...

you didn't specify whether the cpl was at neutral or max polarization?

1) but who is to say cpl filter at neutral polarization has even light transmission across the entire frame? i would try out a different cpl filter.

2) vignetting is due to lights fall-off from center of lens, and is more apparent in low light. some lenses are worse than others in terms of lights fall-off, which can be attributed to lens design.

:')

Jun 07, 2017 at 09:33 AM

billsamuels
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

ted1000 wrote:
You don't know me

If I'm photographing in the rain, especially when windy, I'll use a clear filter to complete the weather sealing of my lens. Canon recommends it. Wouldn't you?

Ted

You're my type of photographer! Besides, B+W uses glass in their filters that are as good if not better than the glass in Canon's optics. I don't consider a clear filter a waste of time or a hampering of light when you could scratch or get water inside your lens. Keep on my man!

Jun 07, 2017 at 06:06 PM

billsamuels
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

melcat wrote:
You might try to source a used B+W "slim" Käsemann instead of the XS-Pro. Unfortunately they have been discontinued. Although the XS-Pro is indeed the same height, it has a much wider annulus holding in the glass. On my 77mm, this is roughly 3mm compared to 1.5mm on my 82mm slim.

The glass is only 70mm in diameter (because 6mm is lost to the annulus). The glass on my 82mm slim is 80mm across.

The only problem with the "slim" model is it won't take pinch caps, only a push-on plastic one, which by now I've lost. Of course, you don't really...Show more →

I so rarely use that lens (24-105mm) and I was disappointed because it just wasn't as sharp as I remember it was. I think because since I bought it, I got the 16-35mm and that's razor sharp for a wide-angle, and then I got a Zeiss 100mm, and that's sharper than razor-sharp. So I"ll stick to those for now on and maybe put away the other lens for a while.

Anyone who wants to buy it is welcome to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and it probably is the filter that's too wide for the lens. I do have several other brand filters I could try including the Hoya EVO and the Canon filter, which might work great on that lens because it was built for that lensl

Jun 07, 2017 at 06:16 PM

ross attix
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

That lens lives on one of my FF bodies all the time. But even with no filter there is slight darkening in the corners at 24mm.

Using any filter will simply exacerbate that when shooting the wide end.

Jun 07, 2017 at 06:21 PM

melcat
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

billsamuels wrote :...I got the 16-35mm and that's razor sharp for a wide-angle, and then I got a Zeiss 100mm, and that's sharper than razor-sharp. So I"ll stick to those for now on and maybe put away the other lens for a while.

I have the same 77mm B+W XS-Pro Käsemann filter, and the 16–35mm f/4 IS, and, assuming that's the lens you mean, the filter works without vignetting. If you're lukewarm about the 24–105, I'd sell that rather than the filter.

BTW, the corners in your example aren't blue, they're just dark. This is classic mechanical vignetting from a filter or wrongly-fitted lens hood.

tntcorp wrote:
but who is to say cpl filter at neutral polarization has even light transmission across the entire frame?

It is highly unlikely that transmission varies across the field of a circular polarizer, because of the way they are made (crystals suspended in a plastic film, which then dries).

Jun 07, 2017 at 09:31 PM

dhphoto
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

I really don't mean to come over as uncharitable, but this is a silly thread, I'm amazed it's gone on so long.

The OP (who says he has done pro work) didn't think to take off the accumulated filters and do a test when all four corners were vignetting with two filters on? What else could it be?

In my first post I solved the issue, which was obvious, why did it need to go any further?

Jun 08, 2017 at 05:47 AM

billsamuels
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Is this Vignetting or lens problem?

dhphoto wrote:
I really don't mean to come over as uncharitable, but this is a silly thread, I'm amazed it's gone on so long.

The OP (who says he has done pro work) didn't think to take off the accumulated filters and do a test when all four corners were vignetting with two filters on? What else could it be?

In my first post I solved the issue, which was obvious, why did it need to go any further?

The reason it carried on is because no one came up with the absolute answer on what was causing the four corners to get the vignetting. There were ideas, but why can I use the same exact set of filters on two much wider Canon lenses and it didn't cause any vignetting at all, plus, the B+W filters were both exclusively for wide-angle lenses. If I got their F-Pro for less money, then the vignetting would have been much worse! But regardless, it still doesn't explain why this particular lens (and only at 24mm) gets that much vignetting in all four corners, especially considering when the EF 16-35 and 17-40 has none using the same set of filters in the same stacked configuration.

As to your "pro-work" statement, I did the "pro work" the day before at a wedding and was just driving around with my wife and wanted to show her a location around Lake Tahoe where I usually see bears. The place was washed out from all the flooding and we were being bitten like crazy by mosquitoes so I had to take the photos quickly and get her out of there before she drove away without me! I didn't really care at the time that there was a clear filter under the polarizer, I was just surprised that given what B&H says in their description about B+W filters and the ability to stack filters given their double-sided grooves and their "superior" optical clearity, I wasn't expecting to see what I saw. Plus, I seldom use that lens anyway. I have two superb Zeiss and Leica lenses that I use for portraits, but I used the Canon because I liked the idea of being able to shift between 24 and 105mm w/o changing lenses.

In the end dhphoto, you're not required to read each and every post you see. If you're tired of this post, stop reading it! And I'm sort of agreeing, it's getting beaten to death as well.

Jun 08, 2017 at 01:07 PM

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