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Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G
  
 
Bespoked
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p.18 #1 · p.18 #1 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


I've been shooting for a loooog time and I've come to the conclusion that the most expensive equipment isn't always the best, thus I don't shoot much Zeiss (or Leica). I'm not an Adam Ansell fan but I know many love and respect his work, I remember watching a doco with him explaining that the most expensive tools aren't the best, it was in response to someone asking why he doesn't use the 'best' lenses and cameras. Most of what he said he used in that doco was AI Nikkor, I went out an bought a (then new) 2.8/24 AI-S and he was right, it was great, I still have it.

Back to the 12-24, I can not wait to get one attached to my 7RII, I just hope it's as good as the biased reviewers at the Sony event said it was.
I'm happy they went for the size and FL range they did, it's just perfect for what I need.



May 30, 2017 at 12:04 PM
Aztatlan
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p.18 #2 · p.18 #2 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


molson wrote:
... or those who can't see the visible differences are suffering from visual impairment...


No one has taken me up on my challenge yet



May 30, 2017 at 12:40 PM
GMPhotography
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p.18 #3 · p.18 #3 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Sony lenses are pretty close to Zeiss to start off. Obviously some made by Zeiss but even Sony branded ones are very close in color at least. Saturation and micro contrast are really what let's Zeiss stand apart. Now I never found a Nikon/canon lens to compare with Zeiss in a big way. If anything I find Sony glass compares the best to Zeiss. It's one reason I switched to Sony from Nikon outside body considerations. Now does this really matter in away yes if you are more a micro contrast / more saturation type shooter. I actually liked Canon glass over Nikon as far as color. Sigma has less saturation than Zeiss as I can see that in my 135 but Sigma Art lenses are extremely sharp so the micro contrast might even favor Sigma.reality is my 135 maybe the sharpest tool in the shed to the rest of my glass. Now these are not really major differences, to me it's more when a lens renders a more 3D effect that counts more. Obviously things can be matched color wise in post but 3D rendering cannot. So more my buying advice is look for lenses that pop out at you. Again you could argue this till the cows come home and it's just my opinion . But in general Zeiss has more pop to the images both in color and micro contrast. It could also be a curse to the portrait shooter as you may want more neutral look.

Really depends on what your looking for. Some folks like lasers and disregard color and saturation. Others the opposite. Depends on what your after



May 30, 2017 at 01:00 PM
molson
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p.18 #4 · p.18 #4 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Aztatlan wrote:
No one has taken me up on my challenge yet


Those could have been taken with an iPhone. Can you post something other than the JPEG thumbnails?



May 30, 2017 at 01:08 PM
MJKoski
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p.18 #5 · p.18 #5 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Canon TS-E (24mm mk2 and 17mm) lenses have superb Zeiss like microcontrast when it comes to wide angles. TS-E colors are a bit more neutral though. 19mm PC-E seems to deliver even more pop and crackle.


May 30, 2017 at 01:26 PM
Aztatlan
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p.18 #6 · p.18 #6 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


molson wrote:
Those could have been taken with an iPhone. Can you post something other than the JPEG thumbnails?


I don't generally post high res/full res images online. As I am sure you can appreciate, giving the stuff away free is not conducive to a good licensing business

Surely an obvious Zeiss 'look' or 'signature' should be visible even in web-size JPGs? I've seen plenty of people claiming to see it in web-size images over the years. To be clear, I can't see it but I'm not saying no one can or that it doesn't exist. Just that for me, it ain't visible. (That is true of any given image, not only these specific ones I posted.)



May 30, 2017 at 08:57 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.18 #7 · p.18 #7 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Aztatlan wrote:
I don't generally post high res/full res images online. As I am sure you can appreciate, giving the stuff away free is not conducive to a good licensing business

Surely an obvious Zeiss 'look' or 'signature' should be visible even in web-size JPGs? I've seen plenty of people claiming to see it in web-size images over the years. To be clear, I can't see it but I'm not saying no one can or that it doesn't exist. Just that for me, it ain't visible. (That is true of any given image, not only these specific ones I posted.)


Actually I don't think the qualities that I admire about Zeiss lenses are often visible in web size jpeg of the size that you have posted. Those wouldn't even make 4 X 6 prints. Microcontrast is one of the measurable qualities that many Zeiss lenses posses, but you see that in fairly large prints (in my experience at least 11 X 17) and it is hard to see it at smaller sizes. What you can see in some small web sized jpegs is bokeh and some Zeiss lenses have pretty distinctive and nice bokeh. Your shots don't lend themselves to that either. A third characteristic of many Zeiss lenses is excellent performance at or near the minimum focus distance. Again that isn't something you can see in these images. And finally some Zeiss lens have very low aberrations, but again the shots you posted don't really lend themselves to evaluating that either. So, I don't think these examples allow me to look for the things I appreciate about many Zeiss lenses, but I do think they can be seen in other types of shots and in large images.



May 31, 2017 at 12:29 AM
trogdon
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p.18 #8 · p.18 #8 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G




Aztatlan wrote:
No one has taken me up on my challenge yet


Just point out which ones are Zeiss and I'll choose to like those best!



May 31, 2017 at 02:12 AM
philip_pj
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p.18 #9 · p.18 #9 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


It can be hard if you don't have a decent knowledge of basic statistical methodology, and that is why no one took up your test. Different images, different days, different light conditions, processing, different everything. Maybe very different lenses, you don't say, zoom/prime, who knows.

Here is an A-B test, done correctly, using a good number of FM photographers:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/983404/0

'So the final result for Set 1 is *88% correct identifications*. Pair B was apparently the most easy to classify (92% correct) while pair E (83% correct) was the most difficult.'

They overwhelmingly got it right, in other words. I remember showing my partner some of the pairs, and I asked her a different question, and bear in mind she has observed my Zeiss images for years: I asked 'which she preferred' - she picked the Zeiss shot for each of them.

It's not worthwhile to explain why Zeiss lenses do it for very experienced users because not everyone cares, or cares to know, or they get disturbed. But no one has to prove anything. If interested, you can go here and read what this photo mag editor of many years has to say:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/03/day-1-sony-and-zeiss-up-in-a-tree.html

(go down a few paras)

Or visit Lloyd Chambers, or Ming Thein, or so many others. cheers and be happy with whatever you like. I sure am.



May 31, 2017 at 06:39 AM
Mirror
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p.18 #10 · p.18 #10 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


I expect the 16-35 GM will be also usable for portrait wide open @35mm...


May 31, 2017 at 07:57 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Aztatlan
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p.18 #11 · p.18 #11 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


philip_pj wrote:
It can be hard if you don't have a decent knowledge of basic statistical methodology, and that is why no one took up your test. Different images, different days, different light conditions, processing, different everything. Maybe very different lenses, you don't say, zoom/prime, who knows.


Yes, you are right. All different images/days/light/processing etc. Perhaps I'm just swimming against the tide here but I felt those reasons are precisely why it would be legitimately interesting to see if anyone can correctly pick the Zeiss-made images. My point in my original post was not that there is no visible difference when SOOC or processed identically, but that by the time image processing is done (or at least my image processing workflow) I'd question whether any difference would remain noticeable or relevant given you can tailor your approach to the output of the lens you are using.

The link you provided was very interesting; thanks. I had a look at the pairs and while I could see differences (sometimes very subtle) between each shot in the pairs, I'll be honest and say with the possible exception of one pair, I ultimately didn't feel any overwhelming preference for any given image in each pair. What differences did exist, for example a slightly warmer or cooler rendering, or more or less microcontrast, these factors could be adjusted for in PP as well. Bokeh of course isn't something you can do a lot with in PP, but this can vary dramatically even within the same brand anyway - that is to say, even Zeiss has lenses with 'good' and 'bad' bokeh.

Of note, that comparison test was done using web-size JPGs of approximately the same size as the files I posted earlier.

Look at the end of the day I am not claiming no one can see the 'Zeiss look' in an image or that I am right and anyone else is wrong. Absolutely not. I cannot see it but it does not mean no one can; however in the real world we are not comparing large prints of an identical scene taken with two different lenses side-by-side; we look at and enjoy a print on it's own merits. My landscapes undergo a fairly rigorous PP workflow and I do believe any signature look that may have been embedded in the RAW is probably long gone by the time I'm done. But if anyone has better eyesight than me and can genuinely see, and appreciate the 'Zeiss look' when not compared directly against another lens more power to them. Cheers




May 31, 2017 at 10:22 AM
Viramati
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p.18 #12 · p.18 #12 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Tried out both these lenses today at Fixation in London and have decide to pre-order the 16-35 GM. It really is hardly any bigger or heavier than the F4 version.


Jun 02, 2017 at 03:56 PM
Viramati
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p.18 #13 · p.18 #13 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Mirror wrote:
I expect the 16-35 GM will be also usable for portrait wide open @35mm...


I tried shooting it wide open at 35mm in FF and crop mode on my A7rII today and detail is impressive and it renders the OOF areas very nicely



Jun 02, 2017 at 03:57 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.18 #14 · p.18 #14 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Viramati wrote:
I tried shooting it wide open at 35mm in FF and crop mode on my A7rII today and detail is impressive and it renders the OOF areas very nicely


I'm interested in this lens for landscapes but if it's like other GM lenses, bokeh balls will be clean/rounded and OOF rendering smooth. It could make a great 28/2.8 and 35/2.8 environment portrait lens.



Jun 02, 2017 at 04:19 PM
Viramati
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p.18 #15 · p.18 #15 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Fred Miranda wrote:
I'm interested in this lens for landscapes but if it's like other GM lenses, bokeh balls will be clean/rounded and OOF rendering smooth. It could make a great 28/2.8 and 35/2.8 environment portrait lens.

Unfortunately even though they let me take it outside to take a few shots the surrounding environment didn't really let me get any decent shots to see it's edge performance though from what I did get I think it betters the f4 version in the corners. I think it has the potential to be an excellent landscape lens



Jun 02, 2017 at 04:41 PM
Aztatlan
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p.18 #16 · p.18 #16 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Stumbled across this gallery of full-res 12-24 images. Some of the shots are useful for assessing edge performance.

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/latest/photo-news/sony-fe-12-24mm-f4-g-samples-gallery-106205

Looks pretty good on the edges. This shot is quite informative: at infinity the edges hold up quite well although if you look in the near corners they are very soft, this was 12mm at f8. Without knowing the focus/field curvature behaviour of the lens it may be one that requires a bit of focus blending. https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/05/DSC00174-acr-1.jpg Obviously it is a depth of field limitation but it seems like the focus point was perhaps 'past' infinity for them to be that soft. I dunno.



Jun 03, 2017 at 12:53 AM
Bespoked
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p.18 #17 · p.18 #17 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


trogdon wrote:
...Just point out which ones are Zeiss and I'll choose to like those best!


ROFL 🤣


Aztatlan wrote:
Stumbled across this gallery of full-res 12-24 images. Some of the shots are useful for assessing edge performance.
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/latest/photo-news/sony-fe-12-24mm-f4-g-samples-gallery-106205


Looks great to me, 12mm zoom, reasonable price considering performance, compact size and decent speed considering the size, looks like Sony has done a great job. Sure there is some smearing at the very edges, but normal for such a wide angle, better than expected for a zoom and much better than I thought for an AF ultra, ultra wide zoom at this price point with these ergonomics.

I'm super interested to get my hands on it for testing with my usual subjects, I know the slight loss of detail in the very extreme edges won't matter. I think I'll order three copies as usual and pick the best if there's inconsistency.

I was about to clumsily hang a huge Sigma from a footless adaptor MC-11, for more money, like a douche, thanks Sony!


Edited on Jun 04, 2017 at 03:52 AM · View previous versions



Jun 03, 2017 at 06:55 PM
Aztatlan
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p.18 #18 · p.18 #18 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Bespoked wrote:
I'm super interested to get my hands on it for testing with my usual subjects, I know the slight loss of detail in the very extreme edges won't matter. I think I'll order three copies as usual and pick the best if there's inconsistency.

I was about to clumsily hang a huge Sigma from a footless adaptor MC-11), for more money, like a douche, thanks Sony!


Where do you order from in Australia that will allow you to return the two other copies? Teds allow returns but for store credit only; if there's somewhere with a more generous return policy I'd love to know.



Jun 03, 2017 at 09:32 PM
philip_pj
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p.18 #19 · p.18 #19 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


Me too. Most Aust retailers I know would laugh if I suggested doing that for me. They figure they are doing you a favour selling you the product in the first place.




Jun 04, 2017 at 12:11 AM
Bespoked
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p.18 #20 · p.18 #20 · Pre-order Now! Sony FE 16-35/2.8 GM and FE 12-24/4 G


I'm absolutely sure it matters how much you order, we just bought out 6th A7RII from the same retailer I always go to. They not only allowed me to shoot the A9 before purchase outside the store, he also is the only retailer that allowed me to borrow a Loxia and compare it to other lenses (outside the store, I took it to my office) and return it (wasn't a huge fan), Zeiss Australia said they couldn't/wouldn't loan and I'd 'have to buy it and sell it on ebay if I didn't like it'.

It's probably not their policy, I really appreciate it and attempt to purchase everything from them, which isn't a problem because the pricing is reasonable and service is top notch, they don't sell everything though so we go to one other retailer for those.

I'm not sure I should promote this because as I said, it's probably not their policy to do this kind of thing, but I'm going to highly recommend Camera Lane for Sony, Leica and Zeiss and some of the guys at Digi Direct, both in Melbourne city. One or two of the Digi Direct guys are awesome, one or two of them are useless, Camera Lane is always top notch.

We spend about $20K per year on equipment, it's constantly sold when out of warranty and we run three systems, Sony (A9, A7II, A7RII), Nikon (D8xx) and Panasonic for stills, you really do have to build a relationship with your store, possibly even with a particular sales person.



Jun 04, 2017 at 03:50 AM
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