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Archive 2017 · Chimping

  
 
OntheRez
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Chimping


jorgegarcia wrote:
solution, don't chimp and bring enough cards.


Rarely and only when I'm dealing with rapidly changing light. With a 128GB, you'd have to shoot a LOT of pix before running out. Carry backup.

Robert



Apr 22, 2017 at 11:14 AM
Kathy White
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Chimping


I do this routinely when shooting interiors, but not because of card size or capacity but to cut down on looking thru them when I return. If I have trouble with lighting a huge room and finally get the shoot I want, I delete the bad ones just to remove them from having to view later when I choose the photos to edit. I have shot literally thousands and deleted a few here and there as I went with never an issue. I use different brands of cards and shoot to dual for backup with a CF and SD using a 5DIII.


Apr 22, 2017 at 11:25 AM
EB-1
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Chimping


Kathy White wrote:
I do this routinely when shooting interiors, but not because of card size or capacity but to cut down on looking thru them when I return. If I have trouble with lighting a huge room and finally get the shoot I want, I delete the bad ones just to remove them from having to view later when I choose the photos to edit. I have shot literally thousands and deleted a few here and there as I went with never an issue. I use different brands of cards and shoot to dual for backup with a CF and SD
...Show more

How does deleting work when writing to two cards. Is the deletion only from the main card?

EBH



Apr 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM
Kathy White
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Chimping


EB-1 wrote:
How does deleting work when writing to two cards. Is the deletion only from the main card?

EBH


No, it takes it off both. Or at least I think it does. I usually just use the SD to load them since my laptop has a built in slot but next time I do it I'll check the CF. but usually it seems the number of blank images it will record seems to remain consistent between the 2 cards, indicating it's deleting them off of both. .



Apr 22, 2017 at 12:47 PM
dhphoto
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Chimping


EB-1 wrote:
How does deleting work when writing to two cards. Is the deletion only from the main card?

EBH


With my dual card Canon cameras (1Ds3, 5D3) yes, you have to manually switch cards and delete the duplicate files, which I think is a good thing



Apr 22, 2017 at 02:39 PM
Kathy White
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Chimping


Thanks for the correction. For my purposes the second card is just backup and I havn't ever had to use it to see. I wouldn't bother to delete it anyway.


Apr 22, 2017 at 08:36 PM
BPDsas67
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Chimping


Thank you all for your responses... Seems like most people don't delete as they go...but out of the ones that do, none have experienced an issue. For those who care - I read an article about memory cards a while back and number one on their list of things not to do, was to delete from camera as it gets things all scrambled up and out of order which could possibly cause a corruption.
And to clarify, I don't delete files as I go out of necessity. I have yet to run out of cards and card space on a shoot. Its more of my OCD kicking in and clearing out the obvious garbage shots to minimize downloading and culling later on... I also sometimes get bored during downtime while waiting for critters to cooperate - although I have to admit Ive missed my fair share of award winning shots while having my face buried in my LCD! :>
Thanks again for all that helped to satisfy my curiosity
Best Regrds
Scott



Apr 23, 2017 at 07:08 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Chimping


BPDsas67 wrote:
...And to clarify, I don't delete files as I go out of necessity. I have yet to run out of cards and card space on a shoot. Its more of my OCD kicking in and clearing out the obvious garbage shots to minimize downloading and culling later on... I also sometimes get bored...


You could spend that time using the 'rating' function to assign stars to the images. A simple 1-star & no-star rating to differentiate keep vs. maybe-delete would let you make the call, without actually deleting anything from the original card. During PP, you can sort using the stars as a search criterion, and happily ignore anything you didn't like on first look.

I hate to delete images before they're dumped into my archive system, because chances are good that somebody will ask, "did you get a photo of Bob?", and the only images with Bob weren't 'keepers', and so they didn't make it home. It's better to have a so-so image of Bob, than no image of Bob. Just sayin.



Apr 23, 2017 at 07:24 AM
cmyb
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Chimping


I bring enough cards so as not to delete in the field. I like to go through all my shots before deleting.


Apr 23, 2017 at 07:33 AM
melcat
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Chimping


BPDsas67 wrote:
For those who care - I read an article about memory cards a while back and number one on their list of things not to do, was to delete from camera as it gets things all scrambled up and out of order which could possibly cause a corruption.


This seems to be a canard that just won't die. I guess that article might have been written by someone with no technical knowledge tasked with making a list of things not to do with memory cards.

If you know how the FAT (and descendants) file systems work, it seems ludicrously unlikely. Adding/extending a file means setting one or more values in the "file allocation table" (after which the format was named) and adding it to a directory. Deleting it consists of setting that number in the file allocation table to -1 and rewriting the directory without it. Either operation updates about the same amount of data on the card in about the same places.

Now if you were working on a floppy disc deleting files and writing new ones would produce "fragmentation" and eventually slow it down, because a disc takes a long time to switch from one part of the file system to another, But flash memory is random access, so this is not a consideration.

My own practice is to delete files as I go, but only if I know for sure they are bad and only the last files shot. If I have a keeper, I never delete a file with a lower number. In this way I am not tempted to waste time in the field editing when I should be shooting.



Apr 23, 2017 at 08:24 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Chimping


melcat wrote:
... But flash memory is random access, so this [fragmentation] is not a consideration.


A solid state storage device will fragment, if there's not sufficient contiguous free space for the next new file being written. This usualy won't happen if you're writing many relatively small files in a large space, like 25 MB RAW files on a 64 GB card, but if the card is in use for a long time, with frequent file deletions, never getting formatted, then the FAT can become a pretty freaky place, where it might be tough to find contiguous space for a video clip, for example. Not a common situation, for sure, ...just sayin.



Apr 23, 2017 at 09:42 AM
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Chimping


I'm checking the just-shot images very often (to see if I have grossly misexposed/misfocused ones; these are mostly deleted on the spot). Never had an issue like this. And yes, I detest the term "chimping" - it sounds too derogatory. Maybe it was a spiteful term coined at the inflection of the film/digital era by the film photographers who were envious of those who could already afford a digital camera?


Apr 23, 2017 at 02:14 PM
melcat
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Chimping


jcolwell wrote:
A solid state storage device will fragment, if there's not sufficient contiguous free space for the next new file being written. This usualy won't happen if you're writing many relatively small files in a large space, like 25 MB RAW files on a 64 GB card, but if the card is in use for a long time, with frequent file deletions, never getting formatted, then the FAT can become a pretty freaky place, where it might be tough to find contiguous space for a video clip, for example. Not a common situation, for sure, ...just sayin.


In the case of the DCF format on top of FAT, which is what's normally in cameras, there won't be much fragmentation if you format reasonably frequently and you chimp a bit.

To start with, the file allocation table itself won't fragment, because it is a fixed size structure allocated when the volume was formatted. It has one number per cluster plus two more numbers. Because it does not grow incrementally, it does not fragment.

Flash memory is accessed by page (typically 4kB) and read and written in blocks of typically 128 to 512 pages. These are similar to sectors and tracks on a spinning disc, except that a single sector can be written to but on flash an entire block has to be erased and rewritten just to update one page on it. Therefore it's a good idea to keep all the pages for a file together in the same blocks and not mixed in with those of other files (fragmented).

Now note that raw files are always going to be larger than a block, and the camera is only writing them one at a time. If no files are ever deleted, the only time two raw files share the same block is at the end of one file and the start of another. If you delete one or other of those files, the next raw file that's written may pick up those pages. Because a raw file is much larger than a block, writing just a few of them will tend to "clean up" any fragmented blocks.

The other source of fragmentation is the directory.

So, yes, it's a good idea to format cards when there's no longer anything on them you want to save.

What is a problem is write amplification, which is the expensive process of having to erase and rewrite a block just to update a single page. For stills shooters, this occurs on the file allocation table (when creating files) and when rating images (updates a value in the raw flag). Although a performance problem, it is not fragmentation, and reformatting won't mitigate it.



Apr 23, 2017 at 08:57 PM
RobertLynn
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Chimping


I chimp and delete as I shoot with 0 issues


Apr 23, 2017 at 11:23 PM
Milan Hutera
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Chimping


I'm really surprised by the recent resurgence of "good practices with memory cards" blogs and the number one advice is - format your card. I always thought this is automatic, like a reflex thing. When you take out the memory card it's for transfering the photos to your computer via card reader. I don't use the USB port on camera at all. So it's a reflex thing for me to format the card as soon as I put it back and I know my photos are copied where they are supposed to be. I'm guessing people don't do this and that's why there are issues with cards and the reason this thread was created


Apr 24, 2017 at 03:55 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Chimping


Milan Hutera wrote:
I'm really surprised by the recent resurgence of "good practices with memory cards" blogs and the number one advice is - format your card. I always thought this is automatic, like a reflex thing. When you take out the memory card it's for transfering the photos to your computer via card reader. I don't use the USB port on camera at all. So it's a reflex thing for me to format the card as soon as I put it back and I know my photos are copied where they are supposed to be. I'm guessing people don't do this
...Show more

I erase the images and then format, I don't know why, I just always have



Apr 24, 2017 at 04:36 AM
Dudewithoutape
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Chimping


EB-1 wrote:
I have no time for that. Typically I bring over 2100GB of 1000x+ CF cards and 800GB of maxed out UHS-I memory cards on vacation. (I have no UHS-II or other format bodies.) I also keep some slower smaller cards ones in the luggage.

EBH


I find that incredible! I barely have a 2 TB drive for my files, yet you take 3 TBs on vacation?!?! How many photos do you take? How long is your vacation? With an A7, I filled up about 64 GB of photos and videos in a week and a half in Hawaii.



Apr 24, 2017 at 05:10 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Chimping


Dudewithoutape wrote:
I find that incredible! I barely have a 2 TB drive for my files, yet you take 3 TBs on vacation?!?! How many photos do you take? How long is your vacation? With an A7, I filled up about 64 GB of photos and videos in a week and a half in Hawaii.


FYI ... EB-1 has been a member since 2003, has a ton of posts and still we don't know his real name and haven't seen one photo taken by him. Maybe we have seen them elsewhere, he might be Anne Leibowitz or David LaChapelle or some other world famous photographer and EB-1 is just an alter ego ... . So that 3TB worth of cards should be a hint....



Apr 24, 2017 at 08:10 AM
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Chimping


Huh... The only time I formatted a card in a camera was when my wife's Wi-Fi SD card started behaving odd - like reporting a bunch of unreadable files with impossible names and sizes. The last time I've seen such behaviour was with floppy disks in early 90s (and odder still was the fact that CHKDSK utility found no fault with the card). After I got her to download all the photos - which is about as easy as moving Mt. Rushmore - I formatted the card and it came back to normalcy.

Milan Hutera wrote:
I'm really surprised by the recent resurgence of "good practices with memory cards" blogs and the number one advice is - format your card. I always thought this is automatic, like a reflex thing. When you take out the memory card it's for transfering the photos to your computer via card reader. I don't use the USB port on camera at all. So it's a reflex thing for me to format the card as soon as I put it back and I know my photos are copied where they are supposed to be. I'm guessing people don't do this
...Show more



Apr 24, 2017 at 08:18 AM
dhlewis
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Chimping


Milan Hutera wrote:
FYI ... EB-1 has been a member since 2003, has a ton of posts and still we don't know his real name and haven't seen one photo taken by him. Maybe we have seen them elsewhere, he might be Anne Leibowitz or David LaChapelle or some other world famous photographer and EB-1 is just an alter ego ... . So that 3TB worth of cards should be a hint....


Google is your friend

http://www.breakthroughusa.com/eb1-green-card-success-story-by-rob-hollywood-photographer/






Apr 24, 2017 at 08:19 AM
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