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The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.
  
 
LeifG
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p.9 #1 · p.9 #1 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


runamuck wrote:
Actually, even Fords run better. Hell, even Fiats run better! Even Yugos do better!


Perhaps this is the fairer comparison:

https://topgear.com.my/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2491:first-drive-electric-peel-p50&catid=39&Itemid=225



Apr 24, 2017 at 06:47 AM
JohnK007
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p.9 #2 · p.9 #2 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


ytwong wrote:
I love shooting Nikon but I can't spend big $$ on 2 systems (like, I won't buy a 24-70/2.8, 70-200 lens for each system) so maybe at one point I might just give up Nikon if they stay the same.


If you enjoy shooting lower-quality zooms, then Canon is a good choice. They excel at zooms.

However, Nikon's FL ED 70-200 zoom is better than Canon's.
Canon's 200-400 is good, but I doubt it will be #1 when Nikon comes out with the FL ED version of their own elder 200-400.

Every Nikkor super-tele prime is better than Canon's.

If I were going to make an either/or decision, it would be to the better end, Nikon, not the other way around.



Apr 24, 2017 at 07:45 PM
JohnK007
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p.9 #3 · p.9 #3 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


LeifG wrote:
I paid just over 1700 for my D500, which I hope to last until it dies. If Nikon had a mirrorless camera, for about that price, with the benefits of the D500, but a smaller body (no mirror box, mirror, and associated mechanics), and a selection of matched lenses (smaller than using the standards Nikkors) then I would have bought one. At least Nikon have clearly stated that mirrorless is part of their future. They have a history of being late to the party (FX, AFS, VR, fresnel lenses) but when they do arrive, they do so in style.





Apr 24, 2017 at 07:48 PM
JohnK007
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p.9 #4 · p.9 #4 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS:
Mirrorless sports cameras have arrived.

However, upon first arrival, and after a head-to-head comparison with the Nikon D5, the claimed specs of this new Sony A9 will be subdued, and will ultimately wind-up leaving a lot to be desired.

It will be discovered that being able to fire-off 20 mediocre (mostly-missed) images per second with this Sony ... through a dark f/5.6 zoom lens ... will prove to be a buzz-kill ... and a poor substitute to firing-off 10 world-class (mostly-nailed) images per second with a Nikon D5 ... using the best Nikkor prime lenses, which are the best on the planet.

Sony has merely laid the foundation for Nikon to come on board and produce an overall better mirrorless camera, probably in less than 1 year, which will feel much better for serious professionals to shoot, while utilizing Nikkor's industry-leading prime lenses.

The rest is talk.



Apr 24, 2017 at 08:00 PM
CanadaMark
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p.9 #5 · p.9 #5 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


JohnK007 wrote:
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS:
Mirrorless sports cameras have arrived.
.


I largely agree with your post, but mirrorless cameras with "sports" specs arrived a long time ago in various iterations, I don't really see what's all of a sudden different with the A9, especially if you don't want to shoot in compressed lossy RAW, in which case the on-paper specs come right back down to earth pretty fast. The problem has always been matching on-paper spec to the real world and also there is a serious lack of a supporting lens system for sports/wildlife/action.

If I bought this camera today (for $6,000 CAD no less) for serious action photography, my sole native lens option with decent reach would be a slow 100-400 F5.6 zoom for the outrageous price of $3400 CAD. If they want to compete with the pro DSLRs in the sports/wildlife realm, IMHO the first thing they need to do is stop putting the cart before the horse. Their vision and constant innovation is commendable, but it never seems to translate into the real world performance one would naturally be excited about when you read about its capabilities. Nikon and even more so Canon seem to be a lot more cautious with their releases, but the performance experience is generally very refined, reliable, and predictable. Combined with enormous lens selection and an OVF, that seems to be what most professionals place higher value on these days.



Apr 24, 2017 at 08:47 PM
 

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Daniel Bliss
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p.9 #6 · p.9 #6 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


Got to say I'm skeptical. The big breakthrough I see here is readout speed that should pretty much finish off rolling shutter for video. I don't really see much for stills shooters.

Sony's lens lineup still depends much too heavily on adapting A-mount Minolta and Sony SLR glass, and even some of the mirrorless stuff is a little pedestrian, like the 24-70/4 for example, or overpriced, like the 55/1.8. Overall, it's not really up to the standard of Nikon F-mount products. (However, that won't be the case forever; there are already some outstanding individual products)

The body is, from an ergonomic standpoint, a little small for the intended purpose.

Sony is finally starting to wake up on memory cards but why did they cheap out and let the second card slot slip to standard SD instead of UHS-II SD?

What about flash? This has long been a Sony weak spot that shows no sign of abating.

Personally, I'd like to see Nikon do an F-mount mirrorless body in full-frame as an alternative to DSLR, and a new line of mirrorless and maybe eventually full-frame APS cameras that can take F-mount gear through an adapter but also support a new line of lenses. This would likely eventually replace most crop-sensor gear except for the D500.

I still think that for my own shooting the DSLR is going to be a superior solution for a long time yet. It's also worth pointing out that the D750 is not much bigger than FX mirrorless as it is and there's more shrinkage Nikon can do on that platform yet. Don't forget than an FM2 or FM3A is basically the same size, and slightly lighter in weight, than a Sony Alpha body. Digital camera logic boards no longer have to cross the entire back of the camera; they can go off to the side, enabling a substantial shrink in depth to close to film camera standards. Most of what Sony has shaved off the front of the camera, Nikon can take off the back. Already has up to a point in the case of the D750. And you're never going to be able to put a Sony FE lens on a film body.

We'll see what the A9 autofocus is like. That's likely to be key in the marketplace.

I'd like to see Nikon get some religion on customer interaction, service, open computing standards, open source, and the digital lifestyle. Mirrorless will play a role but I don't think it's nearly as central to Nikon's problems as people think. Nikon need to think much more like a technology company and a service company than they do at present. Open, usable WiFi and Bluetooth instead of SnapBridge crippling. Software development that works and integrates with other products, both Nikon and non-Nikon. Three to five-day turnarounds instead of two to four weeks on repairs. Standards that apply throughout the line, such as enabling Nikon 1 V-series users to use standard speedlights off-camera and generally improved interoperability of accessories.

Now, I'm not saying products aren't needed. APS or even FX mirrorless would be popular. Some DX standard and wide prime lenses would be valuable. A general return of the compactness, ergonomics and feel that made the FM/FE/FA series bodies and AI/AIS lenses so compelling in the late 1970s to the mid 1980s would be great. But they do not need to walk away from a full-service FX body and lens line that is breaking new ground in performance. They just need to package it right and support it right.



Apr 25, 2017 at 01:04 AM
bjornthun
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p.9 #7 · p.9 #7 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


ytwong wrote:
As one using both Nikon and Sony systems... Nikon lens's incompatibility is not good for them. In fact, their lens ain't fully compatibly with all of their bodies. I have some good AIS, AF-D lens and using them on "cheap" bodies (I use a light-weight body as 2nd body/backup when I travel) is not better than using them on a Sony camera (I can do stop-down metering with AIS lens on Sony, but not on D3xxx/D5xxx series) that's why I purchased a NEX-7 instead of D3xxx/5xxx years ago.

I have purchased 2 Canon lens specifically for my full-frame Sony, both ain't
...Show more

This mirrors my experiences, all Nikon lenses didn't work on all Nikon bodies, something that I found increasingly complicated. It drove me nuts sometimes. In the end I switched to Sony entirely. I also need an EVF for manual focusing, which influenced my decision to switch.
---------------------------------------------

swifty168 wrote:
Ironically, Nikon lenses not working well on third party bodies might actually work against them. And ytwong just gave us a real life example.
Perhaps not by choice but by coincidence, Canon lenses working well on Sony's might just mean Canon shooters who like to stay with Canon can use Sony FF mirrorless in the mean time to tie them over until Canon eventually makes one but that's an if. At least it buys Canon time.
For Nikon users who really want mirrorless FF, they may be persuaded to completely dump Nikon's system in favour of Sony.


After I switched to Sony, I got a Canon mount Sigma 150-600 Contemporary and the Sigma MC-11 smart adapter. The only thing to complain about is a bit slow AF at the long end, but otherwise everything is fine. So, what you say about Canon lenses on Sony bodies is true. I had never thought I would own a Canon mount lens, but now I do.

A mirrorless F-mount camera with an EVF might well have kept me in the Nikon camp, but it would have had to work well with manual Ai/Ai-S lenses.



Apr 25, 2017 at 01:31 AM
JohnK007
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p.9 #8 · p.9 #8 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


CanadaMark wrote:
I largely agree with your post, but mirrorless cameras with "sports" specs arrived a long time ago in various iterations, I don't really see what's all of a sudden different with the A9, especially if you don't want to shoot in compressed lossy RAW, in which case the on-paper specs come right back down to earth pretty fast. The problem has always been matching on-paper spec to the real world and also there is a serious lack of a supporting lens system for sports/wildlife/action.

If I bought this camera today (for $6,000 CAD no less) for serious action photography, my sole
...Show more

We essentially agree, Mark.

I say the A9 is different because (on paper) it exceeds the very best pro sports DSLRs on the planet ... whereas the previous iterations were pale "also-rans" that couldn't even exceed the weak 7D MK II, let alone the Nikon D500.

The A9 (again, on paper) not only eclipses the D500, but the 1DxII and D5 as well. Hence my proclaiming the A9 a reference point.

Ultimately, I don't believe the A9 will deliver ... it will fail to match the Nikon D5 in critical testing ... and (I agree) Sony will have an "almost" camera (the cart) before the horse (world class lenses).

However, what Sony has done is make it a quest for all to TRULY make their claimed specs = real-world specs. True mirrorless prowess is now up for grabs, and I believe the A9 marks the shift from for everybody to move to mirrorless.

It's nice to know Nikon has the best super-tele primes on the planet to fall back on when that happens

Sony has ... what?

Slow zooms, old sub-par Minolta-based primes ... and a reliance on 3rd-party adapters to clumsily-accommodate the superior primes made by others?



Apr 25, 2017 at 06:11 AM
ytwong
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p.9 #9 · p.9 #9 · The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built, but won't.


JohnK007 wrote:
If you enjoy shooting lower-quality zooms, then Canon is a good choice. They excel at zooms.

However, Nikon's FL ED 70-200 zoom is better than Canon's.
Canon's 200-400 is good, but I doubt it will be #1 when Nikon comes out with the FL ED version of their own elder 200-400.

Every Nikkor super-tele prime is better than Canon's.

If I were going to make an either/or decision, it would be to the better end, Nikon, not the other way around.


Each brand is constantly improving their products. Every few years they come up with a much improved version, beating previous gen products by themselves and equivalents from other brands, and then usually it became other brand's turn. Since you said "Canon's 200-400 is good, but I doubt it will be #1 when Nikon comes out with the FL ED version of their own elder 200-400", I suppose you do realize that is happening. One can cheery pick the best of latest gen products and call other brands inferior, but in a longer time frame, I can't see one brand has clear advantage on everything.

At this moment....Sony's 24-70/2.8 seems to be among the best ( note, I am not saying THE best) of mid-range zoom, Sony's 35 1.4, Canon 35/1.4 II seems to be much better than Nikon's AFS 35/1.4. Some E mount Zeiss lens (say 21/2.8, 25/2) are optically excellent yet small and lightweight.

Maybe you have a full set of Nikon super-tele, but I don't. The longest lens I have (still have) is AFS 80-400 and is hardly used. Plus I am NOT a pro, if I shoot AF super-tele, I might still go for Canon since those lens seems much cheaper and wildly available, and I have seen lots of very good wildlife, sports pictures taken with Canon super-tele anyway, despite they are inferior to Nikon.

Since I have not yet decided where to spend my money for a good mid-range zoom, I got an old Contax Zeiss 35-70/3.4 and very very pleased with its' optical quality. Many Sony shooter use very best lens from Leica R/M, Zeiss, Nikon, Canon...

I sometime shoot timelapse, the Sony camera is to me the best tools to do that, it has its limitations(slow SD write speed) but overall much better and easier than using Nikon/Canon unless I use complicated setup (add more bulk). Silent shutter is also very important to me when shooting timelapse. Many people might not see the underlying tech that enable 20fps is also important to silent shutter.

I do overseas travel regularly, size and weight is an issue for air travels (size & weight of full-frame Sony mirrorless actually just go back to what film-SLRs were). For MY use, a system is consist of a good FX, DX and also a good compact body (I usually travel with all 3, although not necessarily carry them all every single day). Nikon has too many lens incompatibility issues, different battery/charger, different flash (Nikon 1, which I own and it is not compatible with my SB800/600/400, and even with the FT-1 adapter, Nikon 1 is not compatible with all AFS lens). Who wants to travel with 3 sets of batteries, 3 chargers, different memory cards (Nikon 1 is micro-SD, and CF/QXD/SD), different flash?

The bottom line is, if Nikon does not address their shooter's (ever evolving) needs, they will start looking elsewhere. I have been Nikon SLR shooter for 20+ years since I was around 14. In my case, incompatibility between their own systems opened the floodgate. The title of this thread is "The mirrorless camera Nikon should have built...", and I totally agree with that. They should make good serious mirrorless, compatible with and complementing their DSLR line up, instead of building the way over-priced Nikon 1 system ( I welcome CX system but Nikon 1 is NOT compatible with their FX/DX system). If they did that, I would remain shooting exclusively with Nikon and I wouldn't have ventured into other brands (and discovered the world is big).




Apr 26, 2017 at 04:22 AM
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