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Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?
  
 
EB-1
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p.14 #1 · p.14 #1 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
It's well over a 1000 in burst mode. The 480 is with LV mode and chimping.

molson wrote:
Mirrorless cameras are always in LV mode...

Vivek wrote:
Well true technically, but what he likely meant was LV mode = using the back LCD and not the EVF. The EVF should consume a lot less power.

rscheffler wrote:
From the a9 specs:

POWER CONSUMPTION WITH VIEWFINDER
Still images: approx. 4.1W(with FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS lens attached), Movies: approx5.3W(with FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS lens attached)

POWER CONSUMPTION WITH LCD SCREEN
Still images: approx. 3.0W(with FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS lens attached), Movies: approx5.0W(with FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS lens attached)

Vivek wrote:
Thanks, that is good to know. That OLED display in the EVF does seem rather power hungry!

What is the battery capacity?

EBH



Apr 27, 2017 at 10:37 PM
arbitrage
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p.14 #2 · p.14 #2 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


EB-1 wrote:
What is the battery capacity?

EBH


Capacity: 7.2 V/16.4 Wh (2,280 mAh)

Some of the reviews at the event were getting 4000+ shots but shooting crazy at 20FPS of course. I heard one report of 8000 shots. But this makes sense because shooting at crazy FPS minimizes VF on time and obviously will blow away the conservative estimates.



Apr 28, 2017 at 01:23 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.14 #3 · p.14 #3 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


EB-1 wrote:
What is the battery capacity?

EBH

Battery capacity is ~ 2200mAh, 2.2x higher than the A7RII battery and higher than Canon uses for it's 5D4, but of course it needs to be.



Apr 28, 2017 at 01:29 AM
EB-1
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p.14 #4 · p.14 #4 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


So it's good for nearly four hours without shooting? That's not too bad, but would require the oddly shaped grip for a day of shooting.

EBH



Apr 28, 2017 at 03:12 AM
ggreene
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p.14 #5 · p.14 #5 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


arbitrage wrote:
Some of the reviews at the event were getting 4000+ shots but shooting crazy at 20FPS of course. I heard one report of 8000 shots. But this makes sense because shooting at crazy FPS minimizes VF on time and obviously will blow away the conservative estimates.


Yeah, this is one thing I'm interested in. What is the longevity of the battery when you are covering an actual event. Not really interested in turning the body on and off all day long to conserve power. It's got to hold up over a 3-4 hour football game or even worse a 6-8 hour equestrian event. Minimizing battery swaps is a necessity.



Apr 28, 2017 at 03:36 AM
arbitrage
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p.14 #6 · p.14 #6 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


ggreene wrote:
Yeah, this is one thing I'm interested in. What is the longevity of the battery when you are covering an actual event. Not really interested in turning the body on and off all day long to conserve power. It's got to hold up over a 3-4 hour football game or even worse a 6-8 hour equestrian event. Minimizing battery swaps is a necessity.


On the video side, Jordan from TheCameraStore said he went through 1 and 1/3 of a battery while shooting 4K for the entire day. That sounds pretty good. I don't think battery will be a big issue with this camera. It won't last like a 1 series but it seems like it might hold up to an LPE6.



Apr 28, 2017 at 01:04 PM
molson
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p.14 #7 · p.14 #7 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Battery capacity is ~ 2200mAh, 2.2x higher than the A7RII battery and higher than Canon uses for it's 5D4, but of course it needs to be.



I took 40 shots over a span of about 45 minutes on my A7R II yesterday, on a fully charged Sony battery, with little or no chimping - and it shows 27% charge remaining. That extrapolates out to 55 shots per charge - so if the A9 battery is in fact 2.2x better it would yield a whopping 121 shots on a fully charged battery...

My "real world" results are shooting in single-shot mode, 14-bit compressed RAW capture, auto ISO, 2-second image review, and using autofocus and image stabilization. I suppose if I disabled IS and AF, dropped to 12-bit, and fired away on high-speed continuous without checking any of the images, I could inflate the number of shots per charge to somewhere in the ballpark of Sony's marketing claims, but why help perpetuate the myth?



Apr 28, 2017 at 03:10 PM
Holger
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p.14 #8 · p.14 #8 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Imagine resource: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a9/sony-a9A.HTM#gallery

Very mixed regarding AF, with very good results but also (in my opinion too often) missed shots or front-focussed shots losing them the "money shot". More reviews are necessary.



Apr 29, 2017 at 06:58 AM
charlyw
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p.14 #9 · p.14 #9 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Holger wrote:
Imagine resource: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a9/sony-a9A.HTM#gallery

Very mixed regarding AF, with very good results but also (in my opinion too often) missed shots or front-focussed shots losing them the "money shot". More reviews are necessary.


Anyone besides me notice that the first image shown on that page has a strange appearnce to the light in that the one on the left is on a different part of it's brightness/color cycle than the one on the right?



Apr 29, 2017 at 08:45 AM
 

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evertdoorn
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p.14 #10 · p.14 #10 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


In general they are very positive, so it seems Sony is doing a good job here. This is also good for Canon shooters; if they will release a pro FF mirrorless at some point, it has to be good too.


Apr 29, 2017 at 08:56 AM
Paul Mo
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p.14 #11 · p.14 #11 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


We know that many people are looking for high quality in a compact package. There is an equation in their somewhere.

I'd like Canon to release a compact fullframe body to mate to the slew of already small EF primes - even the lovely 24-70 f4L IS.

You buy an A7 or Fuji X and the lenses get expensive quick, and they get big.

So I am sitting here waiting for a compact fullframe travel body to which I can attach a 24mm f2.8 IS, 50 f1.4, 100 f2 - for example. Canon has the lenses to compete in the compact travel sector (for those of us averse to the EOS M system).




Apr 29, 2017 at 09:36 AM
johnctharp
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p.14 #12 · p.14 #12 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


I mean, it's not like they can't shove a full-frame sensor in an SL1-sized body, more or less- but they have to do something with the viewfinder, can't shrink that without going EVF, right?

And then battery space for battery life, limited control surfaces (A7-cramped-control syndrome...) etc.



Apr 29, 2017 at 10:48 AM
JohanEickmeyer
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p.14 #13 · p.14 #13 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


I wonder why Sony didn't give an option for focus bracketing with this camera. Sure the effective FPS would be cut to 1/3, but it would increase the chance of getting the focus just right. I seem to remember some older cameras had this feature and it was pretty neat. Even my Canon pro-1 had AF bracketing.


Apr 29, 2017 at 06:06 PM
garyvot
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p.14 #14 · p.14 #14 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?




JohanEickmeyer wrote:
I wonder why Sony didn't give an option for focus bracketing with this camera. Sure the effective FPS would be cut to 1/3, but it would increase the chance of getting the focus just right. I seem to remember some older cameras had this feature and it was pretty neat. Even my Canon pro-1 had AF bracketing.


I'm not sure there would be much benefit on this camera, assuming Sony is competent. Focus is always calculated directly off the sensor, and MFA for specific lenses is unnecessary. For still subjects, focus should always be accurate when there is sufficient light.

For moving subjects, this camera calculates focus 60 times per second, three or four times faster than the fastest SLRs. There is less prediction and more actual focus measurement.

In theory, this camera should have the most accurate AF ever designed. If the lenses are capable of matching the camera, focus bracketing (as opposed to focus stacking) should not really be of much use.



Apr 29, 2017 at 06:31 PM
Holger
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p.14 #15 · p.14 #15 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
I'm not sure there would be much benefit on this camera, assuming Sony is competent. Focus is always calculated directly off the sensor, and MFA for specific lenses is unnecessary. For still subjects, focus should always be accurate when there is sufficient light.

For moving subjects, this camera calculates focus 60 times per second, three or four times faster than the fastest SLRs. There is less prediction and more actual focus measurement.

In theory, this camera should have the most accurate AF ever designed. If the lenses are capable of matching the camera, focus bracketing (as opposed to focus stacking) should not
...Show more
DSLRs calculate focus not only 20times a second. I think you misunderstood something here. The Sony is faster than the A7rii in doing so. But the dedicated AF system and RGB sensors calculate it much faster than the Sony (after e.g. Thom Hogan). Additionally it is not correct that OSPDAF is accurate per se (which is why an additional CDAF step is added, therefore Sony's designation as hybrid AF). There is always a "dead zone" when focus is achieved, as the light rays from different parts of the lens are located within the COC and no phase information is available. You need predictive focus movement algorithms (problematic with erratically moving subjects) or let the subject get minimally OOF until phase information is regained.



Apr 29, 2017 at 06:55 PM
garyvot
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p.14 #16 · p.14 #16 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Holger wrote:
DSLRs calculate focus not only 20times a second. I think you misunderstood something here. The Sony is faster than the A7rii in doing so. But the dedicated AF system and RGB sensors calculate it much faster than the Sony (after e.g. Thom Hogan).


Interesting. This contradicts the discussion of this in DPReview:

"Interestingly, there's no setting to tell the camera how erratic or constant the acceleration (or deceleration) of your subject is - a parameter most DSLRs allow you to specify. Sony tells us this is because their system needn't rely as much on prediction, since it can simply react to the subject thanks to its 60 fps AF measurements. Our initial impressions line up with these claims: every now and then the camera might lose the subject, but it very quickly returns, something we can't say about the Canon 1D X II when its predictive algorithm fails."

While I am sure it is the case that the AF system in a DSLR is sampling data faster than 60 times per second when the subject is visible, the difference between these systems is the loss of acquisition in a DSLR when the mirror is moving through its up/down cycle 10, 12, or 14 times per second. The AF system is effectively "blind" then. Canon and Nikon have made tremendous strides over the decades in reducing mirror blackout times and improving the predictive capabilities of their AF systems, but nothing beats a near-continuous eye on subject.


Additionally it is not correct that OSPDAF is accurate per se (which is why an additional CDAF step is added, therefore Sony's designation as hybrid AF). There is always a "dead zone" when focus is achieved, as the light rays from different parts of the lens are located within the COC and no phase information is available. You need predictive focus movement algorithms (problematic with erratically moving subjects) or let the subject get minimally OOF until phase information is regained.


Yes, I am sure this is right. I spoke imprecisely. I wasn't referring exclusively to PDAF on-sensor, but the benefits sensor-based focusing generally. Hybrid systems have the benefit of being more accurate if given time and light to operate, and do not suffer from calibration issues. I am pretty sure though that the Sony isn't using CDAF during continuous tracking, and so you are right that there is room for error in the system.

The reason I am intrigued is that having suffered through inaccurate / inconsistent DSLR focusing issues for years, on-sensor focusing is a significant potential benefit to me. (I would say the same about shooting in Live View on newer Canons--would that there were articulated LCDs and/or EVFs available for the high end models!)



Apr 29, 2017 at 09:29 PM
charlyw
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p.14 #17 · p.14 #17 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
Sony tells us this is because their system needn't rely as much on prediction, since it can simply react to the subject thanks to its 60 fps AF measurements.


For one, PD relies on a phase difference being measurable, which isn't the case when the subject is currently in focus and then there is a time difference between the time of the last measurement and the time when the lens has executed the required steps - so for fast moving subjects like F1 racecars (if you ever stood on top of Raidillion (or Eau Rouge) at the Spa Francorchamps race track then even if the lens could execute the command given in 1/60th of a second (which I highly doubt for all Sony lenses) it would still be 1.8 Meters off the mark - a distance you are going to notice even if it's not totally OOF at the usual distances. For that give me a predictive system that from one measurement knows the current distance and from the second measurement onwards knows the current speed and from the third measurement onwards even knows any speed changes and thus can compensate for all this in calculating where the measured subject is going to be when the shutter opens...

A reactive system that won't even have any PD most of the time and operates at selected, not open aperture and thus is going to be highly compromized even with fast teleprimes is junk in these circumstances. The IR asessment that they felt that many shots are lacking critical sharpness would attest to the fact that a purely reactive system does not work too well.

Ever wondered why Canon gives their autofocus speed as 50km/h at 8 or 5 meters distance with the 300mm f/2.8 lens? Because that is the maximum speed of an approaching object at that distance that the autofocus pediction is able to calculate and execute the necessary lens focus operation to be focused on the predicted object position when the shutter opens. If the Sony system is purely reactive then at that distance and speed the A9 would never be able to achieve a single sharp shot as the object changes distance by 28 cm between measurement and shot and the total DOF at 5 m distance is 4cm or 12cm at 8 meters (taking the typical rated distances for a 1Dx system and a consumer grade system like the 6D)...

And did you notice the different color of the lights visible in the Sony test shots? Call me paranoid but after some thoughts I realized that the reason for the difference in light color might not be the electronic shutter as I first assumed but rather Sony having had the lights rewired (or the venue hand picked) so that they are on different phases of their brightness/color cycle and thus the lighting does not produce the typical indoor lighting color temperature banding with their camera and also doesn't screw up their autofocus measurements...



Apr 30, 2017 at 06:01 AM
melcat
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p.14 #18 · p.14 #18 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


I wrote earlier in this thread:
One measure of rolling shutter is the flash sync speed, because the faster the sync the less time it takes for the exposure slit to cross the frame. (Rolling shutter therefore does exist with a focal plane shutter.) The A9 specs list the X-sync as 1/250s, at which speed rolling shutter isn't much of a practical problem. But it's unstated whether that applies to the mechanical or electronic shutters, or both. They do say "X-sync" and not the more usual "flash sync", whuch maybe hints towards it being the mechanical shutter figure only. And if
...Show more

Taken together, the videos from the Northrups


and from Jordan at the Camera Store


answer this.

The Northrup video says the flash sync with the electronic shutter is 1/160s. Jordan's video demonstrates rolling shutter in video, which shows that the readout is scanning line-by-line rather than in the other dimension. Since the Canon 1DX Mk II has a vertical travel shutter, and assuming the readout dimension on the Sony is the same for stills and video, the "scan" is in the same dimension as the A9's electronic one and tne sync speeds can be diirectly compared as a measure of rolling shutter. Therefore, rolling shutter for stills on the A9 is 56% worse than on the 1DX Mk II (6.3ms to traverse the frame, as opposed to 4ms).



Apr 30, 2017 at 07:30 AM
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