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Archive 2017 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?

  
 
molson
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


DAphoto77 wrote:
DP Review just did a feature on the cost of trading down to the nine.


Shouldn't be all that expensive - there are very few pro lenses available to buy. Maybe the extra expense is in stocking up on SD cards for all that 20 fps shooting...



Apr 25, 2017 at 04:36 PM
charlyw
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


molson wrote:
Shouldn't be all that expensive - there are very few pro lenses available to buy. Maybe the extra expense is in stocking up on SD cards for all that 20 fps shooting...


They replaced the big, fast teleprime with Sony's 100-400 interpretation - thus underestimating the price of the switch by about $10k in that alone (assuming that Sony ever produces at big, fast teleprime for the A9 which doesn't require the use of an adapter that reduces framerate to 10 fps and cripples autofocus and costs less than the current A mount lens)...



Apr 26, 2017 at 02:02 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


charlyw wrote:
They replaced the big, fast teleprime with Sony's 100-400 interpretation - thus underestimating the price of the switch by about $10k in that alone (assuming that Sony ever produces at big, fast teleprime for the A9 which doesn't require the use of an adapter that reduces framerate to 10 fps and cripples autofocus and costs less than the current A mount lens)...


Indeed, I called them out on that and said the changeover just won't happen with that current lens line-up or lack thereof for sports and wildlife users



Apr 26, 2017 at 05:07 AM
ggreene
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


I can see some sports photographers adding the A9 to their gear bag for times when they want to shoot in quiet events but they're not going to get them to replace their current gear. That may be all Sony expects to begin with. Just getting sports photographers to view the brand as viable for limited scenarios is a plus for them.


Apr 26, 2017 at 06:26 AM
Sy Sez
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


"Lower" sales are what drives companies to lower prices---Regardless of the cause.


Apr 26, 2017 at 09:52 AM
garyvot
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


ggreene wrote:
I can see some sports photographers adding the A9 to their gear bag for times when they want to shoot in quiet events but they're not going to get them to replace their current gear. That may be all Sony expects to begin with. Just getting sports photographers to view the brand as viable for limited scenarios is a plus for them.


Exactly this, just like the A7R/RII found its way into the kits of Canon and Nikon landscape and commercial photographers.

Also, not only sports photographers, but photojournalists, wedding and event, and action photographers generally may use this camera. Those who say that Sony won't supplant Canon and Nikon overnight for pro sports kind of miss the point. Sony is building momentum and the perception of credibility, and they have the advantage of disruptive technology. It's a long game.



Apr 26, 2017 at 10:06 AM
ggreene
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
Also, not only sports photographers, but photojournalists, wedding and event, and action photographers generally may use this camera. Those who say that Sony won't supplant Canon and Nikon overnight for pro sports kind of miss the point. Sony is building momentum and the perception of credibility, and they have the advantage of disruptive technology. It's a long game.


I think they could have made it a lot shorter game if they had given the A9 a better body build with some decent ergonomics.



Apr 26, 2017 at 10:54 AM
garyvot
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


ggreene wrote:
I think they could have made it a lot shorter game if they had given the A9 a better body build with some decent ergonomics.


Perhaps. But I think people are drawn to the Sony cameras not just because of their sensors, but because of their small size and (what some feel are) their retro-chic design. Sony probably feels it has a good thing going with this body style.

Also, grip size notwithstanding, ergonomics and the overall shooting experience seem to have been improved a lot over the A7, according to someone who is not a Sony evangelist:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4934566891/sony-a9-shooting-experience



Apr 26, 2017 at 11:06 AM
ggreene
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
Perhaps. But I think people are drawn to the Sony cameras not just because of their sensors, but because of their small size and (what some feel are) their retro-chic design. Sony probably feels it has a good thing going with this body style.


If you just want the enthusiast market it's ok but the pro market (at least sports photogs) will want a more rugged, reliable, and comfortable build.

garyvot wrote:
Also, grip size notwithstanding, ergonomics and the overall shooting experience seem to have been improved a lot over the A7, according to someone who is not a Sony evangelist:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4934566891/sony-a9-shooting-experience


They said the weather resistance was not up to the 1DX2/D5. That's not good when you are trying to woo pros who have to shoot in all weather.



Apr 26, 2017 at 11:43 AM
molson
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
Also, grip size notwithstanding, ergonomics and the overall shooting experience seem to have been improved a lot over the A7, according to someone who is not a Sony evangelist:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4934566891/sony-a9-shooting-experience


I think I will refrain from putting much stock in any current reviews, since they are being written out of obligation to Sony for the expensive press junket to NYC... unless of course the reviewer can provide proof they paid all of their own expenses.

Manufacturers (not just Sony) should be earning these glowing reviews, not buying them.



Apr 26, 2017 at 12:54 PM
garyvot
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


molson wrote:
I think I will refrain from putting much stock in any current reviews, since they are being written out of obligation to Sony for the expensive press junket to NYC... unless of course the reviewer can provide proof they paid all of their own expenses.

Manufacturers (not just Sony) should be earning these glowing reviews, not buying them.


To the extent that solo bloggers and Sony enthusiasts were invited to attend, sure, I would agree with you. But DPReview is different. It is not in their interest to promote one brand over the other. You cannot paint all media with the same brush. When I worked in a newsroom, we never accepted paid expenses to attend press events. I am pretty sure that DPReview operates as a real news site, and follows the same ethical rules--unless you have proof otherwise.

And my sense is that Carey Rose was not particularly a Sony A7 fan, which is why he wrote this article.

In any case, I am not cheerleading for Sony. But I think some of the reactions I am seeing here are unrealistic.

We should be glad for Canon and Nikon to have more competition, really. I think what Sony and Fuji in particular are doing has been great for photographers.



Apr 26, 2017 at 02:42 PM
ggreene
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
We should be glad for Canon and Nikon to have more competition, really. I think what Sony and Fuji in particular are doing has been great for photographers.


There can be no doubt about this. The Canikon duopoly has become stagnant and need the kick in the ass. In the case of the A9 however I just don't see it changing much without Sony dealing with the ergonomics and build quality at some point. Maybe an A9mk2 just before the Olympics will be that body. By that time maybe it will have the fast supertele's as well.

The scary thing is the 1DX3 is already in development and Canon hasn't shown much for tech lately to compare with the internals of the A9.



Apr 26, 2017 at 03:39 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


garyvot wrote:
Perhaps. But I think people are drawn to the Sony cameras not just because of their sensors, but because of their small size and (what some feel are) their retro-chic design. Sony probably feels it has a good thing going with this body style.

Also, grip size notwithstanding, ergonomics and the overall shooting experience seem to have been improved a lot over the A7, according to someone who is not a Sony evangelist:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4934566891/sony-a9-shooting-experience


It's not what Sony thinks that should be important, it's what the photographers need. They don't need a small form factor camera for pro sports and wildlife use. There was a lot of scope for a far better design of the A9 rather than rehash the A7 body with a few tweaks. It needed to be bigger for bigger grip, more space between grip and lens, larger AF buttons, bigger battery etc. It would still be lighter than say a 5d4 but far more user friendly IMO than what they have offered.

You talk about the long game as though you think Canon will sit on its thumbs. They are conservative but they aren't stupid. They will pour whatever resources they need into mirrorless to be competitive. Cudos to Sony for poking the lazy bears, but don't expect them to keep hibernating.

Canon could easily deflate some of this Sony hype by firstly offering advanced mirrorless say M3, and M1, to take on a6500 and A7. The one issue they face is an answer to Sony's stacked sensor but remember Canon recently showed off something even better, global shutter that can do high fps, on a FF sensor. This could be leveraged sooner if they are prepared to push the envelope.

Nikon is the main worry not sure what's going on there, they may be in for some pain.



Apr 26, 2017 at 04:29 PM
arbitrage
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


ggreene wrote:
There can be no doubt about this. The Canikon duopoly has become stagnant and need the kick in the ass. In the case of the A9 however I just don't see it changing much without Sony dealing with the ergonomics and build quality at some point. Maybe an A9mk2 just before the Olympics will be that body. By that time maybe it will have the fast supertele's as well.

The scary thing is the 1DX3 is already in development and Canon hasn't shown much for tech lately to compare with the internals of the A9.


I really can't see the 1DX3 or D6 having any special mirrorless or EVF tech in them....maybe by 1DX4 and D7 time in 2024....or by then the DSLR could be dead??

1DX3 hopefully will have a radically new AF system but I still see it having a mirror which will limit its advancement from a technology standpoint. The more I think about it I'm not sure what Canon will be able to throw in it that will make it desirable. Hopefully they surprise us. Hopefully XQD or CFExpress and not C-Fast is the medium of choice.



Apr 26, 2017 at 04:56 PM
arbitrage
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
It's not what Sony thinks that should be important, it's what the photographers need. They don't need a small form factor camera for pro sports and wildlife use. There was a lot of scope for a far better design of the A9 rather than rehash the A7 body with a few tweaks. It needed to be bigger for bigger grip, more space between grip and lens, larger AF buttons, bigger battery etc. It would still be lighter than say a 5d4 but far more user friendly IMO than what they have offered.

You talk about the long game as though
...Show more

My thoughts exactly....they shouldn't have kept it small....they needed to make this substantially bigger for better ergonomics. Keep the A7 series small but this A9 should have had the things you mentioned.



Apr 26, 2017 at 05:00 PM
garyvot
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
It's not what Sony thinks that should be important, it's what the photographers need. They don't need a small form factor camera for pro sports and wildlife use. There was a lot of scope for a far better design of the A9 rather than rehash the A7 body with a few tweaks. It needed to be bigger for bigger grip, more space between grip and lens, larger AF buttons, bigger battery etc. It would still be lighter than say a 5d4 but far more user friendly IMO than what they have offered.

You talk about the long game as though
...Show more

I want to say this carefully, because I do not necessarily disagree with you, but your (our) views on the size of the camera are subjective. Not everyone may agree with us.

I do agree Canon could take on Sony in full frame mirrorless. They are really the only other company that can field their own full frame sensors. But to me, the obvious issue holding back Canon is the success of the EF lens line.

To build what most people expect of a mirrorless camera (a more compact design with a shorter flange to sensor depth) would necessitate launching an entirely new line of full frame lenses, as Sony has done. This is a huge, costly undertaking, and would immediately undermine confidence in the future of EF lenses and DSLRs in general.

Sure, because of DPAF they could have a "pass thru" EF adapter, just as they have for the M-mount, without needing a PDAF module like the Sony A-mount adapter has. EF lenses would work reasonably well (better than Sony's similar offering), but the launch of a new full frame lens mount from Canon would send shockwaves through the DSLR world.

Alternatively, they could just build a mirrorless camera that is compatible with EF lenses, but the body would be much bigger than the competition, and they would forego the chance to create more optimized wide angle lens designs. Resulting cameras would likely not win over the "retro chic" mirrorless crowd.

They are in a difficult position because of their very success. Much like Nikon was a generation ago when AF technology arrived. Maintaining compatibility with the Nikon F lens mount and all of its mechanical couplings was a drag on Nikon's ability to compete with Canon for years. I don't think everyone appreciates the difficult calculus Canon has to consider for when and how they respond to Sony.

Of course, they may build a "hybrid" DSLR system with an EVF that can be used optionally. That is something I expect to see. But ultimately, keeping the mirror box assembly and its separate PDAF and metering systems would inject cost and complexity into cameras that its competition won't have.

It's a non-trivial business problem.



Apr 26, 2017 at 05:09 PM
jcolwell
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p.12 #17 · p.12 #17 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


A full frame mirrorless camera doesn't have to have a short register.


Apr 26, 2017 at 05:41 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #18 · p.12 #18 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Canon can use their electronic smarts to offer an adapter for EF glass that doesn't affect AF performance. This can easily buy them the time to gradually develop a line of true mirrorless lenses. And as Jim says, it doesn't have to be short register. So what if the camera is thicker, it'll still be lighter and have all the other advantages of a mirrorless and you can then keep using EF glass. They should do both IMO, one as an interim measure. Lot's of ways to skin a cat.


Apr 26, 2017 at 06:02 PM
ggreene
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p.12 #19 · p.12 #19 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


arbitrage wrote:
I really can't see the 1DX3 or D6 having any special mirrorless or EVF tech in them....maybe by 1DX4 and D7 time in 2024....or by then the DSLR could be dead??


I think that is the problem. For too long Canon and Nikon have metered out advancements against each other. It's like they have no desire to independently compete just a pre-arranged market share split that keeps them both in power.

I was so disappointed with the A9 ergonomics and build quality/weather resistance. The duopoly so needs a poke in the eye at the pro level.



Apr 26, 2017 at 06:03 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.12 #20 · p.12 #20 · Will the Sony A9 force Canon to lower their prices?


Well Canon could hedge its bets and offer an advanced mirrorless sports camera and a more traditional DSLR. Use an M3/M1 as the test bed. Essentially make a 7D3 in mirrorless form, something to take on D500 and a6500. A bit of a hybrid that leverage best of both worlds, but do not gimp it. 4K video, EVF, electronic shutter and mechanical shutter. Imagine being able to use DPAF + PDAF through the eyepiece.

Heck let's release the EOS 3D as a mirrorless high speed FF make it the dawn of the new age for them.



Apr 26, 2017 at 06:15 PM
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