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Pre-order: Sony A9
  
 
Stoffer
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p.27 #1 · p.27 #1 · Pre-order: Sony A9


sebbe wrote:
what do you expect from a a9r?

The big thing about this sensor is, that it can be read out without a mechanical shutter in a time that no banding/rolling will be seen. But only for 24MP. With 42MP (or more) the readout had to be much higher.

It's not only about the FPS in this case. To implement this technology in a camera with higher MP (and lower fps), you need the next generation not the same with a different concept.


Exactly this. You will probably not get the advantages of a fully working electronic shutter with silent shooting and fast refresh rates or even zero blackout time with the viewfinder on a high resolution sensor. In the future, yes. But probably not in the next version of A7rIII or A9r. Pick your poison.

Sony could put a high resolution sensor in a A9r so you get some of the goodies from the A9 body, but I still think they will just update the A7rIII . Note that both Canon and Nikon has moved away from a top-pro 1D and DX high resolution camera.

I would guess we will get a A7rIII with dual cards, an AF joystick and updated viewfinder. But a high resolution stacked CMOS Sensor? It will probably be too expensive at this point in time.



Apr 21, 2017 at 09:31 AM
azenis
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p.27 #2 · p.27 #2 · Pre-order: Sony A9


samfowler wrote:
GMPhoto - I get it - but for me...when I am in Iceland standing in a really remote off the path location or in some other ridiculous place in the world, it would be nice to have geotagging...I know I can always it it in post but its a pain in the butt for a $5 module and to eliminate the work, and it can be easily turned off or on for people who dont want it. I mean with technology nowadays a gps module is really old school now.


I think the idea of not incorporating GPS makes sense.

Geotagging can easily be done with smartphone (Geotag photo pro2) and/or a GPS fitness/hiking watch/tracker. Adding a component into it might interfere with design (they need to fit the module and antenna) . For people who absolutely love to have it, getting an app on their phone or using a GPS-capble watch/tracker could be a much cost-efficient solution.

If sony integrates into A9, it would affect every user, including those who don't need it.



Apr 21, 2017 at 09:35 AM
Matt Grum
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p.27 #3 · p.27 #3 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
How is this new and revolutionary? I've been looking through my photos to find one where rolling shutter is a problem. Nope, haven't found any, but then I don't use silent shutter for sports. Why would I?


The fact you can use the silent shutter for sports is revolutionary. We still don't know the exact specs but if the readout speed is 1/250s they made the mechanical shutter obsolete... so things like checking the shutter count on used bodies is a thing of the past. In fact if they did one without IBIS there would be zero moving parts in the body. That matters a lot in terms of reliability.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
The Olympus E-M1 is similarly, but mostly better equipped (better weather sealing, fully articulated LCD, dual IS and uses USB-3 vs. the USB-2) compared to the A9.


It's easy to cherry pick features to say one camera is "better equipped" (by the way the A9 also supports dual IS). The E-M1 II lacks things like eye tracking AF, the 4K video uses line skipping rather than sampling the whole sensor like the A9, and I believe the EVF and electronic shutter will be better on the A9.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
How is the larger sensor suddenly worth a $2,500 premium?


This has always been the case. How is the larger sensor in a PhaseOne XF worth $40,000? Because people will pay it.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I also understand lack of large aperture telephoto lenses, which makes the A9 a camera that does not do it all.


People are talking like Sony have said "we will never ever make a 600mm f/4". I believe the long lenses are coming, but they're expensive to design and manufacture so it takes time.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
it's not in any way revolutionary. Again, Olympus did this a year ago for a substantially lower price.


And a substantially smaller sensor. It's much easier to get a fast readout from a small sensor. What's revolutionary (aside from potentially making the mechanical shutter genuinely obsolete) is doing this with a 35mm sensor, which means much greater depth of field control and capturing 4x the light compared to micro 43rds. In many ways Google's Pixel camera is more advanced than the A9 but it's a tiny sensor that produces garbage in low light.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
In addition, the m4/3 system gives me access to f/2 zooms


You may have f/2 zooms but they're still a stop down in terms of DOF control and light gathering. And I'd bet an 35mm f/2.8 zoom is sharper stopped down to f/4 than an MFT f/2 zoom wide open.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Talking about Nikon: The tiny V3, launched some three years ago, offered similar specs to the A9, again except the great viewfinder and the sensor size. The AF of that camera is blazing, and the lenses are excellent.


My partner has a Nikon 1 series camera, I've processed a lot of her shots and I'm sorry but the lenses are a long way from being "excellent". The Nikon cameras are interesting - especially the 60fps RAW shooting feature, but the fact you can't set the aperture or shutter speed manually or use alt lenses when shooting at 60fps makes it next to useless for my purposes.



Apr 21, 2017 at 09:49 AM
MayaTlab
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p.27 #4 · p.27 #4 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Stoffer wrote:
Sony could put a high resolution sensor in a A9r so you get some of the goodies from the A9 body, but I still think they will just update the A7rIII . Note that both Canon and Nikon has moved away from a top-pro 1D and DX high resolution camera.


But you could argue that the A9 body is at the moment the bare minimum in terms of UI / ergonomics / controls / battery life to compete with the 5DIV / D810 class. So, basically, an updated A7RIII is an A9R .
Anyway, I doubt that the A9 body's design and construction are responsible for the A9's final price, so I believe that Sony could very well release an A9R (or A7RIII with the A9's body) for the A7RII's previous price if they wanted to. If they think they can extract more from customers, well, good for them, bad for me



Apr 21, 2017 at 09:57 AM
GMPhotography
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p.27 #5 · p.27 #5 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Thanks Matt. I just did not have the patience to explain this fully. To me its revolutionary in many ways. The real problem is always costs. If something seems expensive it gets torn apart in pieces. If you look at the whole package as a system or its end use it's a different story. This may not sit well with many hobbyists because it really was not marketed , designed or has the feature sets for the hobbyists per say. Every other word from Sony was for working professionals and even there whole panel at the end of the announcement where not any sports shooters but mostly all journalists. Why they used sports as part of there marketing is beyond me. Sure it will do it well but it's more for the wedding, journalist. PR folks that can use these feature sets. Sure very few of us need 20FPS but it's on board if you need it.

I pre ordered one this morning. Not sure I will go through with it though. I have the need but others will have more a need than I do given the work they do.

Now having said all that if they do update the firmware on the LA-E3 to make if work as effeciently as the A9 body than they have the glass immediately for the sports shooter. Sony would be very smart to do this while they develop more long FE glass. The A mount has some very nice long lenses in the field today.

Matt Grum wrote:
The fact you can use the silent shutter for sports is revolutionary. We still don't know the exact specs but if the readout speed is 1/250s they made the mechanical shutter obsolete... so things like checking the shutter count on used bodies is a thing of the past. In fact if they did one without IBIS there would be zero moving parts in the body. That matters a lot in terms of reliability.

It's easy to cherry pick features to say one camera is "better equipped" (by the way the A9 also supports dual IS). The E-M1 II lacks things
...Show more


Edited on Apr 21, 2017 at 10:30 AM · View previous versions



Apr 21, 2017 at 10:23 AM
Beni
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p.27 #6 · p.27 #6 · Pre-order: Sony A9


When I first saw this the first thing I thought was 'this would make a great wedding camera'. As for sports/photojournalism, I'm sceptical that the AF can match the CaNikon systems. Until now they were not really all that close never mind matching. Second thing is pro cameras are pro tough. For the press crowd, they're going to want a camera that is tough. These Sony's are far from built by those standards from my own experience. Heck they don't come close to the prosumer class of the competition for build quality. When your paycheck depends on getting that money shot, you need to know that you can rely on your gear. Despite the sand or rain or stampeding crowd, etc.

I'm not in that world any more, I live in a studio these days. Perhaps things are different in the world of a dying press and fewer and fewer full time pro's. Perhaps a 20fps sports camera with the build of an A7x is just what the freelance sometime photographers who have replaced them wants. It's cheaper and you need less hard won experience to be able to get the money shot. They aren't travelling, these are local shooters and perhaps the build quality won't bother them that much.

I'm being cynical. Forgive me.



Apr 21, 2017 at 10:26 AM
GMPhotography
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p.27 #7 · p.27 #7 · Pre-order: Sony A9


I always think this is a misconception among folks that smaller means less durable. I got a lot of hard time on my A7rII and it's held up well until now. But let's also be honest no journalist is running out the door with one body either. Even The DSLR folks have a backup or a Leica type camera stuffed somewhere on location. Also not everyone is a battlefield shooter. Many are covering politics and everyday news. Just think of the White House shooters can do now. They are silent and don't bug the subject or the TV crews around them. Now just think of all the venues just being silent would benefit a shooter. Not to mention fast frame rates and high ISO situations. Maybe it's me but it seems pretty powerful they possibilities this has. I never thought in my career I would see something like this . I might have to buy one.


Apr 21, 2017 at 10:40 AM
DavidBM
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p.27 #8 · p.27 #8 · Pre-order: Sony A9


GMPhotography wrote:
I always think this is a misconception among folks that smaller means less durable. I got a lot of hard time on my A7rII and it's held up well until now. But let's also be honest no journalist is running out the door with one body either. Even The DSLR folks have a backup or a Leica type camera stuffed somewhere on location. Also not everyone is a battlefield shooter. Many are covering politics and everyday news. Just think of the White House shooters can do now. They are silent and don't bug the subject or the TV crews around
...Show more

Yes Guy I can't believe how ho-hum people are about this. It's amazing. 20 fps of SILENT full frame with without shock or rolling shutter type distortion? It totally changes how PJs and event photography can be done. For those guys it's a game changer. I think people are concentrating on the 20fps a bit too much (that makes more sense for sports, but there'll need to be more lenses first). But silent and fast without distortion (and hopefully bitrate reduction but we have to check that) . That's one impressive tool. Not a tool I want for what I do, but I'm bowled over (and looking forward to other features of the body appearing in a slower high Rez camera)



Apr 21, 2017 at 10:46 AM
johnvanr
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p.27 #9 · p.27 #9 · Pre-order: Sony A9


gnjphotography wrote:
Not so true. VII agency recently blogged on what cameras there photojournalist are using to cover conflict around the world and mirrorless cameras were in the mix. The issue with Sony, until now, was the dual card slots and more reliable autofocus is low light. Many of the photojournalist stated smaller mirrorless with eye detection made their job easier and made them less discreet to the subjects they were shooting.

-Greg



VII is not your typical agency, though. They're really more of a cooperative of individual photographers, each with their own style and focus. I don't see the big agencies switching over any time soon, although I could see them trying out some mirrorless gear on non-critical assignments. In the end, though, the Sony setup is basically just as large and heavy as a DSLR setup, but with less sturdy bodies, non-proven lenses and - compared to DSLRs - atrocious battery life.



Apr 21, 2017 at 11:28 AM
DavidBM
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p.27 #10 · p.27 #10 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Stoffer wrote:
Exactly this. You will probably not get the advantages of a fully working electronic shutter with silent shooting and fast refresh rates or even zero blackout time with the viewfinder on a high resolution sensor. In the future, yes. But probably not in the next version of A7rIII or A9r. Pick your poison.

Sony could put a high resolution sensor in a A9r so you get some of the goodies from the A9 body, but I still think they will just update the A7rIII . Note that both Canon and Nikon has moved away from a top-pro 1D and DX high
...Show more

I'm expecting a high Rez stacked sensor; after all that's only a scaled up version of the 1 in stacked sensor. I'm not saying that scaling is trivial to do, but I think it might easily be on the cards. Of course that won't mean the burst rate of the A9r - depending on how high "high" is it might be 6-7 fps in electronic shutter mode. But without blackout that would very welcome, even if with fast action there'll also be more distortion. If we are lucky we might get a much faster APS mode as well..



Apr 21, 2017 at 11:49 AM
 

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Matt Grum
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p.27 #11 · p.27 #11 · Pre-order: Sony A9


chiron wrote:
The real "wife" question is whether the A9 will look enough like the a7rii that your wife won't know it's a new camera.


And there we have it folk, the real reason Sony didn't go with a new body design for the A9




rscheffler wrote:
The mechanical shutter will truly be dead once these sensors are global shutter capable.


Why? What advantage does a mechanical shutter have over an electronic one that has 1/250s sync speed?




mttran wrote:
I still think both A7R2 and A9 are using BSI structure type and the later with pixel wells improvement.


You can't make the pixel wells deeper without reducing the min ISO, that's fundamental based on the way ISO values are calculated.

As the A7RII and A9 both have minimum ISO of 100, that indicates they don't have the deeper wells (unless they have made a huge breakthrough in QE or transmission, but that would have shown up in DXO etc. tests of the A7RII.




nandadevieast wrote:
Still, i will wait and see there are no flies in the ointment. Some of the possible red flags can be:

You discover that focus remained locked at one point to achieve high fps.


The claim of 60 AF calculations per second would make this incredibly unlikely.

nandadevieast wrote:
And yes, weather sealing
4500 camera and no weather sealing


Doesn't sound like no weather sealing:

"Enjoy carefree shooting in tough environments, with comprehensive dust-and moisture-resistance measures that help guard against moisture and dust. Protection includes sealing around buttons, dials, media jack cover, and enclosure edges featuring tongue-and-groove joints for double shielding to tightly interlock panels and components."



Apr 21, 2017 at 12:16 PM
stevesanacore
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p.27 #12 · p.27 #12 · Pre-order: Sony A9


raminolta wrote:
, I didn't know professional sport photgraphers hold their camera and heavy telephoto lens by their hands for 8 hours. I thought they mount the lens through its tripod collar on a tripod and the camera is effectively floating.



I think even on a monopod, the small body doesn't give you the leverage and comfortable grip that a 1DX or D5 will. If the A9 performs that well, they may put up with the discomfort, but there is no comparison to the comfort and balance of the bigger heavier body especially when on a monopod or tripod. Maybe the vertical grip will help with that. The issue one reviewer demonstrated with him unable to comfortably place his fingers around the grip using the 100-400 is a serious issue that I haven't seen mentioned yet.



Apr 21, 2017 at 12:25 PM
leetmode
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p.27 #13 · p.27 #13 · Pre-order: Sony A9


I don't like all these complicated resistance terms, just tell me what I can't do with the camera.

Can I shoot with it underwater? If it rains while I'm shooting, should I care? I live in a very humid environment, will my camera explode?



Apr 21, 2017 at 12:28 PM
raminolta
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p.27 #14 · p.27 #14 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Well, for those who need a bulkier body, the grip would help with that. If they need a bigger body,
the mirrorless cameras are obviously not for them and they better grab the biggest they can find.

Some have large hands some have small hands, etc.. I have average size hands and I never felt uncomfortable holding even the smaller compact mirrorless cameras in my hands (Nex 5 series). A7/A9 series are even bulky in comparison.

SUV and family vans are made for those who want a big car and sedans are made for those who prefer a compact car. Neither sedans nor suv are inherently better than the other. It's just what the user prefers that makes one favorable over the other.

Now do you even have a D5 or 1DX or do you just dream about their bigger size?! And if you have one, do you actually put them into their real professional use or you just take family snapshots with them (which can be taken with a cell phone too)?


stevesanacore wrote:
I think even on a monopod, the small body doesn't give you the leverage and comfortable grip that a 1DX or D5 will. If the A9 performs that well, they may put up with the discomfort, but there is no comparison to the comfort and balance of the bigger heavier body especially when on a monopod or tripod. Maybe the vertical grip will help with that. The issue one reviewer demonstrated with him unable to comfortably place his fingers around the grip using the 100-400 is a serious issue that I haven't seen mentioned yet.




Edited on Apr 21, 2017 at 01:10 PM · View previous versions



Apr 21, 2017 at 12:47 PM
stevesanacore
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p.27 #15 · p.27 #15 · Pre-order: Sony A9


DavidBM wrote:
Yes Guy I can't believe how ho-hum people are about this. It's amazing. 20 fps of SILENT full frame with without shock or rolling shutter type distortion? It totally changes how PJs and event photography can be done. For those guys it's a game changer. I think people are concentrating on the 20fps a bit too much (that makes more sense for sports, but there'll need to be more lenses first). But silent and fast without distortion (and hopefully bitrate reduction but we have to check that) . That's one impressive tool. Not a tool I want for what I
...Show more

Don't we already have silent shutters in our A7R and II cameras? I've never used it but I know it's a menu item. Does it not work? The 20fps is amazing but not sure who really needs that. I'm curious about how it works with strobes like the Profoto's with HS sync and high frame rates with their new Profoto Sony remote. That will be very important to me who use these strobes quite often. Still lots of questions for some scenarios. I also agree that wedding shooters may be a much bigger market for this camera than sports shooters and wonder why Sony isn't promoting it to them. I guess there is more prestige in Sports Illustrated than wedding albums



Apr 21, 2017 at 12:50 PM
Matt Grum
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p.27 #16 · p.27 #16 · Pre-order: Sony A9


stevesanacore wrote:
Don't we already have silent shutters in our A7R and II cameras? I've never used it but I know it's a menu item. Does it not work?


A7R has neither a silent shutter or electronic first curtain. It's mechanical shutter is also rather loud.

The A7RII has both EFCS and silent shutter, but in silent shutter mode the bit depth drops from 14 to 12 and there is more [image] noise. Also the readout speed is a very slow 1/15s, meaning you get rolling shutter artifacts. Also silent shutter is disabled in continuous shooting mode, so if you want to take more than one frame with it you have to keep mashing the shutter button as fast as you can.

Suffice to say it leaves something to be desired...



Apr 21, 2017 at 01:01 PM
stevesanacore
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p.27 #17 · p.27 #17 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Not sure if your question was directly to me but, yes, I shoot with the large body Canon's and, yes, they are more comfortable - but I love the small body Sony overall. (I shoot with both systems side by side often only reaching for the Canon when shooting action that the A7R2 doesn't seem to handle well). I don't shoot pro sports, but quite a bit of high energy lifestyle, water skiing, people running, etc where I used 10fps Canon's with the 300 and 400 2.8 and the bigger body is much more comfortable. I put the 300 on my Sony occasionally and it really is not as easy to handle. That said, if the images and focus tracking from the A9 are really as good as a top of the line DSLR, then I'll probably go for one. I'd love to get back to only one system. But I'm not a hard core sports guy and I'll put up with the poor handling with big lenses, as I just don't use them that much. Gosh.... after writing so much and airing my thoughts, I'm dying to try one.... I wonder when Lensrentals is getting them I could use one next week!

raminolta wrote:
Well, for those who need a bulkier body, the grip would help with that. If they need a bigger body,
the mirrorless cameras are obviously not for them and they better grab the biggest they can find.

Some have large hands some have small hands, etc.. I have average size hands and I never felt uncomfortable holding ever the smaller compact mirrorless cameras in my hands. A7/A9 series are even bulkier.

SUV and family vans are made for those who want a big car and sedans are made for those who prefer a more compact car. Neither sedans nor suv are
...Show more



Apr 21, 2017 at 01:07 PM
raminolta
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p.27 #18 · p.27 #18 · Pre-order: Sony A9


I don't shoot actions and don't have big tele lenses so can't be sure whether the small body size is inherently a disadvantage. I however need to carry my equipment around and sometimes for long distances. So I appreciate any reduction even the slightest in weight and size. When mirrorless cameras appeared, they were certainly a welcome for those of us who were tired of carrying a big and heavy dslr around. I simply replaced my big dslr with one. A good camera is one that you carry with you not the one you leave at home. I know there are other photographers with similar preferences.

Edited on Apr 23, 2017 at 04:54 PM · View previous versions



Apr 21, 2017 at 01:18 PM
nandadevieast
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p.27 #19 · p.27 #19 · Pre-order: Sony A9


Nice sum up by David Kilpatrick of photoclubalpha.

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2017/04/19/alpha-a9-promises-professional-performance/



Apr 21, 2017 at 01:33 PM
nandadevieast
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p.27 #20 · p.27 #20 · Pre-order: Sony A9


I wonder how long before these things are planned. Now when i look at A7rii top plate, its obvious a dial is missing there. Its too plain and vacant there.


Apr 21, 2017 at 01:38 PM
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