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I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D...
  
 
sk66
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


I'm fairly certain that 21MP on FF is enough resolution to minimize the risk of moire, and for what I use it for (wildlife/action) that's of minimal concern anyway. The cost isn't bad ($425), and the camera is/will be out of manufacturer's warranty. They replace the AA filter stack with an IR only filter and recalibrate focus. Plus they provide a 1yr warranty on the parts/work. I can't really see any major negative drawback... am I missing anything?

After years of using the D810, the reduction in resolution in the D5 due to the AA filter is rather annoying...



Apr 19, 2017 at 02:16 PM
sjms
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Missing? the subtle difference between a 20MP and 36MP camera by itself and the rather nominal change that will occur after your proposed $425 mod.

I hope your logic pans out for you.

Edited on Apr 19, 2017 at 03:00 PM · View previous versions



Apr 19, 2017 at 02:46 PM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Do you often shoot wide apertures? Sharpness gained due to the lack of an AA filter is primarily noticeable at really wide apertures, and it's very small. You can sharpen the AA image to the same degree as the AA-less one, however the opposite is also true and you can sharpen the AA-less image a bit more too. Moire is not an issue for 99% of people these days, I wouldn't worry about that unless you do some very specific types of photography. I'm guessing for most people there is more variation in their technique or PDAF system than there is sharpness gained by removing the AA filter.

Personally I wouldn't do it. I don't think removing the AA filter on the D5 is going to do much at all to fill the gap between the D5 and D810 sensors in terms of resolution. If you perceive it as a large difference, perhaps something else is off within your system? It also may have a negative impact on resale value.



Apr 19, 2017 at 02:47 PM
sk66
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


There are certainly other differences between the D810 and the D5... but I also know that I am "never" recording a true 36MP with the D810 when photographing wildlife/action.

I realize that a lens (w/o optical errors) is sharpest at wider apertures, and therefore that is where the difference is potentially the greatest. It is also because of the fact that very few lenses in practical use can resolve to the size of the smaller pixels (diffraction limited) that the risk of moire is reduced and the AA filter isn't needed... there is also the oversampling advantage that comes with higher resolutions.

But, if you take an image that is already somewhat diffraction limited and then further soften it with an AA filter, I'm thinking that the effect should still be readily noticeable. IME, if you compare any camera w/o an AA filter to one with it, the differences are not necessarily minor. Basically, I'm hoping to get approximately the same total/actual resolution from the D5 as I get from the D810 when resolution is limited by other factors (technique, settings, AF, etc).

The cost of the modification, and to resale, I'm not too concerned with. I imagine it could potentially increase resale very minorly.



Apr 19, 2017 at 03:12 PM
Hardcore
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Not worth it imo. Another negative to removing the aa filter is false colour. I have seen it on my d810 when i had it and preferred the image produced by my d800 and then sharpened to match.

I have seen no resolution loss with an aa filter and doubt you'd be able to notice any difference for print when both images are sharpened properly for their intended medium. I did extensive test printing with my d800 & d810 at 100% and could not tell the difference between the 2.



Apr 19, 2017 at 03:22 PM
la puffin
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


sk66 wrote:
The cost isn't bad ($425), and the camera is/will be out of manufacturer's warranty. They replace the AA filter stack with an IR only filter and recalibrate focus. Plus they provide a 1yr warranty on the parts/work. I can't really see any major negative drawback... am I missing anything?


Who would you be having to do this?




Apr 19, 2017 at 03:29 PM
sk66
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


la puffin wrote:
Who would you be having to do this?

https://www.lifepixel.com



Apr 19, 2017 at 03:33 PM
sk66
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Hardcore wrote:
Not worth it imo. Another negative to removing the aa filter is false colour. I have seen it on my d810 when i had it and preferred the image produced by my d800 and then sharpened to match.

I have seen no resolution loss with an aa filter and doubt you'd be able to notice any difference for print when both images are sharpened properly for their intended medium. I did extensive test printing with my d800 & d810 at 100% and could not tell the difference between the 2.


I assume you are talking about color moire as opposed to luminance moire?

It is most certainly true that printing can have an "equalizing" result... it's always a matter of "matching dots," and whichever stage produces the fewest will be the limit of resolution.



Apr 19, 2017 at 03:42 PM
CATProductions
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Risky.


Apr 19, 2017 at 03:44 PM
Rags Hef
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


sk66 wrote:
https://www.lifepixel.com


Lifepixel is a good outfit and very skilled at what they do.

I had two done by them

One a D70 IR conversion. I wouldn't recommend doing IR on anything but a good beater cam. IR initially is fun, but you can bore quickly.

The other was a replacement filter on my d700 (caused my my challenged cleaning skills)

Nikon wanted $1,400 and Lifepixel $400 +/-; the work was excellent good turnaround and I was very satisfied



Apr 19, 2017 at 04:03 PM
 

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sk66
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Rags Hef wrote:
Lifepixel is a good outfit and very skilled at what they do.
The other was a replacement filter on my d700 (caused my my challenged cleaning skills)
Nikon wanted $1,400 and Lifepixel $400 +/-; the work was excellent good turnaround and I was very satisfied


I had one replaced on a D4 for similar reasons...



Apr 19, 2017 at 05:03 PM
sjms
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


i think you are entering into the realm of diminishing returns.


Apr 19, 2017 at 05:16 PM
AnnJS
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Before you take the extreme step of having the AA filter removed, try turning off Auto Profile Corrections (Auto-Lens correction and Auto-Vignetting) in ACR/Lr because I find those two do considerable damage to micro-contrast.

Or, if you are really concerned about Distortion, at least set and save new Defaults for all your lenses so that much less than 100% correction is applied by Default.

Another thing which wrecks Resolution is the use of Luminance Noise Reduction: I prefer to live with a little Luminance Noise than to introduce the plastic-smearing which that Slider generates. Using the Masking slider (to keep sharpening out of smooth areas) reduces the need to reduce Luminance Noise.




Apr 19, 2017 at 05:44 PM
sk66
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


sjms wrote:
i think you are entering into the realm of diminishing returns.


Most likely



Apr 19, 2017 at 05:54 PM
sk66
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


AnnJS wrote:
Before you take the extreme step of having the AA filter removed, try turning off Auto Profile Corrections (Auto-Lens correction and Auto-Vignetting) in ACR/Lr because I find those two do considerable damage to micro-contrast.

Or, if you are really concerned about Distortion, at least set and save new Defaults for all your lenses so that much less than 100% correction is applied by Default.

Another thing which wrecks Resolution is the use of Luminance Noise Reduction: I prefer to live with a little Luminance Noise than to introduce the plastic-smearing which that Slider generates. Using the Masking slider (to keep sharpening out
...Show more

I don't use auto corrections... I use selective sharpening... noise reduction only as required.



Apr 19, 2017 at 06:05 PM
camerapapi
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


I have minimal experience using a camera without the AA filter. It is my understanding that the number of pixels has nothing to do with moire reduction which is a function of the AA filter.
It also seems to me that you are talking about the Nikon D810 and the Canon 5D, the latter is said to be a camera with excellent resolution specially when using professional glass. Indeed the pictures I have seen from the Canon 5D are of excellent quality.
I cannot speak on behalf of others but all of my cameras have the AA filter and I have never experienced a problem with sharpness when I used good glass. AA filters today are thinner than they were a decade ago and it seems to me from what I see that with modern softwares sharpness does not appear to be an issue.

William Rodriguez
Miami, Florida.



Apr 20, 2017 at 12:25 AM
Christian H
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Am I the only one who hates the AA filter less bodies? I much prefer the colors produced by my D800 to those of the D810 and D500.

Christian



Apr 20, 2017 at 12:27 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


sk66 wrote:
I'm fairly certain that 21MP on FF is enough resolution to minimize the risk of moire, and for what I use it for (wildlife/action) that's of minimal concern anyway. The cost isn't bad ($425), and the camera is/will be out of manufacturer's warranty. They replace the AA filter stack with an IR only filter and recalibrate focus. Plus they provide a 1yr warranty on the parts/work. I can't really see any major negative drawback... am I missing anything?

After years of using the D810, the reduction in resolution in the D5 due to the AA filter is rather annoying...


Don't do it with a 20MP camera.

EBH



Apr 20, 2017 at 01:18 AM
sk66
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


camerapapi wrote:
It is my understanding that the number of pixels has nothing to do with moire reduction which is a function of the AA filter.

Not really. Moire results when the pattern of the subject closely matches the pattern of the sensor and they overlay so as to create a third pattern (moire). The AA filter slightly softens the image to inhibit the subject pattern from being resolved as finely.
When a lens cannot resolve to the level of the sensor an AA filter is not needed which is why almost all Nikons with a pixel pitch of < 5um are being made w/o AA filters... Very few lenses can resolve to that level, and even those can only do it in limited situations/apertures.

If moire is encountered it can usually be eliminated by opening the aperture introducing more optical errors, or by stopping down to introduce more diffraction. The problem (of course) is recognizing that it is occurring at the time of capture... it is very hard to see on the camera screen and it is typically only visible at certain display sizes.

I'm talking about the Nikon D5. Which is fine as is, but I think it probably has a rather strong AA filter... but if there is a benefit to removing the AA filter it will be more like upgrading from a reasonably sharp lens to a really sharp one.



Apr 20, 2017 at 01:23 PM
sk66
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · I think I'm going to have the AA filter removed from my D5...


Christian H wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the AA filter less bodies? I much prefer the colors produced by my D800 to those of the D810 and D500.

Christian


Unless you are talking about color moire (false color), I don't know what the lack of an AA filter would have to do with it... It's more likely the default processing being applied that is causing the differences (in camera jpeg or raw profile).



Apr 20, 2017 at 01:26 PM
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