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Archive 2017 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating

  
 
PetKal
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


Both 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 lenses are of the 2008 technology which pre-dates the Mark II "big white" lenses by three years. From the standpoint of manufacturing logistics and cost alone, I'd expect Canon to aim for a homogenous process where 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 should also be made according to the Mark II technology, down to the barrel finishing coat type.
There are many other advantages related to sharing of parts and assemblies between lenses of the same technology vintage.

In addition to those manufacturing logistics/costs considerations, there could be some lens performance drivers for the update. For one, both 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 could be made lighter if they receive the Mark II type makeover, which would be of particular importance with the 800.

A possibility of a major 200 or 800 redesign is also very intriguing, such as an introduction of 200 f/1.8 IS and 800 f/5.6 DO. In my eyes, the latter redesign is more likely than the former. A significantly smaller and lighter 800mm lens would increase the EF flagship lens appeal (and sales) significantly. Moreover, 400 DO II has demonstrated full well that Canon has developed the knowhow needed to make a top performing DO telephoto lens at a price comparable to refractive supertelephoto lenses.



Apr 04, 2017 at 06:28 AM
ggreene
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


I think Canon is still honing their skills on DO as the 600 is still non-existent. I agree though that the 800 should be DO if they do an update. Looking at a long wait though as the 600 is probably first.

Be interesting to see if they can apply the DO tech to faster lenses like a 200/2 or 400/2.8.

As far as sales go, these things are prestige items with very little volume. If Canon wants to make money they need to look elsewhere. They've got a lot of older lenses with much greater appeal that need updating before a 800 DO and the 6 Canadians looking for it.



Apr 04, 2017 at 08:12 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


I hope the 200 f/2 Mark 1 used price improves like the 400DO did when the Mark 2 came out.


Apr 04, 2017 at 08:47 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


These are two very special lenses and one possible scenario is that none of them will be updated even before the next generation of 300-600 mm lenses.

Hence we need this thread to stir up some attention

I will be interested in a long f/5.6 lens.



Apr 04, 2017 at 08:53 AM
PetKal
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


If we are talking about a near term future DO conversion of a supertelephoto lens, then 600 II is one of the least likely candidates in my view. The reason for that is that 600 II was introduced 5 years ago only, and the lens is practically faultless and it's technologically current. Secondly, since its introduction, 600 II has probably been one of the best sellers, amongst all other "big whites", because not only that it has continued to draw the same 600mm crowd, it has also attracted some new buyers who in the past used to own 500 MkI and the 800. What sane company would start pouring money into a redesign of their best selling and relatively recently introduced product ?

(Now, I obviously do not know why Canon decided to show that putative 600 DO prototype a year or two ago, however, that could have also been a marketing subterfuge where in reality they were testing the 800 DO design feasibility.)



Apr 04, 2017 at 09:15 AM
dolina
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


If they can cut the weight by half then I will be in.


Apr 04, 2017 at 09:58 AM
LuckyStrike
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


How many years did we wait for an updated 100-400

I don't know the answer, but in the end, most would say it was worth the wait!

LuckyT




Apr 04, 2017 at 10:02 AM
technic
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


alundeb wrote:
These are two very special lenses and one possible scenario is that none of them will be updated even before the next generation of 300-600 mm lenses.


What about updating the 2.8/200L and 4/300IS L lenses, which are way older technology? Admittedly introduction of high quality zooms like the 70-200 and 100-400 has diminished the attraction of these 'modest' tele primes for many.
The 300mm could use DO and needs updated IS and AF, the 200mm would get a lot more attractive if they gave it DO and IS as well (to separate it more clearly in size/weight from the pro zooms).



Apr 04, 2017 at 10:08 AM
PetKal
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


When updating existing lenses, I guess Canon also takes into account their dSLR market share as well the image of the EOS/EF line relative to Nikon first and foremost.

EF 200 f/1.8 IS and EF 800 f/5.6DO would boost Canon's image as the leader in the field probably much more than any other updated (new) lenses. If 800DO is provisioned with a built in TC similar to 200-400, or if the next generation upper echelon cameras are designed to autofocus with the combo 800 + 2xTC, many would find such lens very very desirable.



Apr 04, 2017 at 10:36 AM
ggreene
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


I think they would be smarter to respond to the light weight Nikon 300/4 and the reasonably priced 200-500/5.6, and get the new 85/135's (new 50L wouldn't hurt either) out there as well. That probably appeals to a far broader segment of their users.

Given the overall market, is Canon more worried about their image or their bottomline?



Apr 04, 2017 at 11:29 AM
PetKal
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


The product/corporate image works its way into market shares and earnings.....with cars, lenses and cups of coffee.


Apr 04, 2017 at 11:39 AM
tsangc
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


Both 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 lenses are of the 2008 technology which pre-dates the Mark II "big white" lenses by three years. From the standpoint of manufacturing logistics and cost alone, I'd expect Canon to aim for a homogenous process where 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 should also be made according to the Mark II technology, down to the barrel finishing coat type.

I'm not sure I would make the same argument. I don't think anyone knows the business decision gating process for these things--there's probably a huge amount of capital costs which may or may not have been paid off on the development of these two fairly niche lenses.

I'd actually believe the economics and profitability of the existing lens would drive the decision to make an updated version over any potential cost savings an update featuring commonality would save.

For example, yes, it's true they could use the same finishing paint or material. But the manufacturing process development, QA changes, retraining, etc to apply that same paint would be all net new. Some industrial engineer has to go out and figure out how to paint the 800mm versus the 600mm II, make a set of instructions, tool for any new spray booths, holders, etc. All for $1000 of paint spread out over the 5000 copies 800mm that will be sold in the next year? Probably not worth it.*

Now if you imagine the testing required on say, focus assemblies, electronic controllers, IS modules...that stuff is even more expensive.

* I don't think anyone here knows what those costs are, so it's really hard to debate about it. You can see the reuse of certain things over and over again (the 18MP sensor, the 9 point AF module, the 18-55mm kit lens), but those are typically in products which sell in the millions (eg Rebels)

I think you'll see these updated when

a) Nikon makes a better one and it risks ongoing sales
b) the original costs have been paid off
c) an entire new series (v3?) of supertelephotos is developed and everything is refreshed








Apr 04, 2017 at 01:08 PM
garyvot
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


50 1.4 or nothing!


Apr 04, 2017 at 01:59 PM
technic
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


tsangc wrote:
I'm not sure I would make the same argument. I don't think anyone knows the business decision gating process for these things--there's probably a huge amount of capital costs which may or may not have been paid off on the development of these two fairly niche lenses.


Agree that we know very little about the decision process. In the current 'trickle-up' e-con-omy, more and more technology leaders are switching their attention to extremely expensive products for the 0.1% (or the government). Often the more expensive the product, the better it sells ... Supercars, superyachts, trophy homes, personalized medicine, countless examples. Maybe it is irrelevant how good the existing lenses are or who really uses them for photography ;-(



Apr 04, 2017 at 02:00 PM
Lan11
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


I’ve already placed my oder for a new 300/4 II DO with internal TC.1.4, soon to be delivered.


Apr 04, 2017 at 02:17 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


Peter I reckon 10 years between supertele's so maybe 2018 will see new 200 and 800 replacements. But if you think the 200 f/2 is due what about the poor old 200 f/2.8L. While Canon has said we will see some type of replacement for the equally ancient 135L the 200 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8L look to have been forgotten completely

Edited on Apr 04, 2017 at 09:12 PM · View previous versions



Apr 04, 2017 at 06:40 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


tsangc wrote:
[

a) Nikon makes a better one and it risks ongoing sales
b) the original costs have been paid off
c) an entire new series (v3?) of supertelephotos is developed and everything is refreshed



Nikon has already made a better one, but priced it in the stratosphere where only a gazillionaire could afford it.

Canon has to make the case that an 800 f/5.6 is more compelling than a 600 f/4 + 1.4x. Given the newer 1 series don't really slow down the AF with TC's, given that the 600 will always have much better mfd, is f/4 when needed and has IQ so close to the bare 800 prime it doesn't matter, IMO makes this a tough sell. 800 sales have dried up a lot since the 600 II came along, also not helped by it's noticeably higher weight.

Maybe Canon needs to skip the 800 altogether and go straight to a 1000 f/5.6 DO to make it really compelling. Smaller and lighter than the 800L, but of course hard to see a price under $20K ensuring sales a still miniscule.



Apr 04, 2017 at 06:49 PM
PetKal
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Peter I reckon 10 years between supertele's so maybe 2018 will see new 200 and 800 replacements. But if you think the 200 f/2 is due what about the poor old 200 f/2.8L. While Canon has adi we will see some type of replacement for the equally ancient 135L the 200 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8L look to have been forgotten completely


Whayne, I wish I knew what's happening with 135 f/2 and 200 f/2.8.......those lenses are almost identical, probably designed at the same time, and they are both quite old although very nicely performing. Then there is 180L, 70-200 f/2.8 non-IS, etc.

I also have a hard time understanding how they can ensure sufficient inventory of electronic assemblies for those old lenses, where OEM component obsolescence must have been hitting them for a long time. Parts substitution in those assemblies is an expensive affair because engineering needs to get involved before the continuing production could take place.



Apr 04, 2017 at 06:51 PM
ShutterbugJ
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


dgdg wrote:
I hope the 200 f/2 Mark 1 used price improves like the 400DO did when the Mark 2 came out.


I doubt it would drop nearly as much; the 200/2L is sharp, the 400DO mk1 wasn't. 400DO mk1 vs mk2 pictures are easy to tell apart.



Apr 04, 2017 at 07:12 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · EF 200 f/2 and 800 f/5.6 due for updating


Which one is from the 400DO mk2 vs mk1?

https://photos.smugmug.com/All-photos-collection/i-hLHvB39/0/XL/IMG_7262_DxO%20no%20exp%20corr-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/All-photos-collection/i-5XDSdn9/0/XL/brighter%201-6229-9%20%20br7%20c1-XL.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/All-photos-collection/i-Xbbv2mB/0/XL/JD8A6171-XL.jpg




Apr 04, 2017 at 07:32 PM
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