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Lowballing clients
  
 
SGallant
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Lowballing clients


Elijah wrote:
Huh?

In reality, they lowballed.
If you read my first post carefully, it says "...after talking to multiple photographers around the same level as yourself, we've received very many competitive offers that fit our budget better."

Clearly, they DO NOT value my work at what we initially agreed on.

Huh? back at you.

I think your last statement is the key. They weren't sold on why you charge $500 more than the other photographers they saw as being equally capable. So they wanted it in the form of a discount to do business with you. People are never 100% honest with their budgets. And this still looks like an attempt to negotiate with you. People don't just come out and say, I am going to negotiate with you now sir.

Bottom line is you and I are in very different places. If I were in your shoes, I am pretty confident I would feel the same way you do.



Mar 17, 2017 at 10:47 PM
glort
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Lowballing clients



Reading back through this thread is really a bit sad.
People are making rather silly and flawed excuses and arguments to justify what really is their lack of knowledge in business.

IF this were a sales or business forum the position would be so different and no one would be suggesting the clients were tight arses without first asking the qualifying questions to see whether they were or not. None of the detractors did that here. Not one. For those knowledgeable in the basics of sales and business, they would all know that the clients were ready to buy , just saying sign me up in a way that didn't make them look too keen to rush in and throw their legs in the air.

Notice the people that have experience and knowledge in sales and business were united in their position and those that don't had an opposite view. If the discussion was between pro shooters and amateurs, no one would be questioning whom is more qualified in their opposing opinion to be correct yet in this case those without experience are trying to tell those that have they are wrong.
I see a problem in that logic right there.

I really do find it sad people are trying to make far fetched excuses to justify the position the clients were just cheap skates and would have been trouble to assert their position.
This is so much more than an argument of who is right and who is wrong in the discussion, it's very real in the way people are running and in fact hurting their business and income. That goes into real world problems and stresses and the quality of life they are having for themselves and for those that have them, their families.

You can blog your arse off, spend 23 hours a day sucking up and talking sickening sweet drivel on FB, Buy every bit of new equipment the day it comes out and edit every picture pixel by pixel in the impossible dream of making a perfect image BUT, if you can't handle a simple customer objection in the sales process, it's all for nothing and those clients you will get are no where near as smart and clever to choose you as you want to think. You are going to be working your arse off and getting lower returns for your efforts because in reality, the clients you book are more to do with luck than your skill in sales or business.

The attitudes not even the example here show that how being such a great shooter still does not compensate for a lack of business skills and having good work does not stop you from blowing clients away for no good reason.

This isn't another of those intangible discussions of should the cropping of the picture been taken 3mm to the left or which lens is better for covering receptions, in fact there are rules, solution's and practices used every minute of the day in other industries for the same problem.
Having the demonstrated position in those vocations as many have demonstrated here would have you thrown out on your arse for being incompetent even if you were a junior!

And also it's not about whether THESE particular clients were tight arses or not.
So many here have jumped to the automatic conclusion they were, yet not one single person saying that has even asked or suggested qualifying questions that any knowledgeable person in sales or business would automatically suggest to see if they were or not. That one tell tale alone gives the whole game away.

That fact alone makes the "They are tightarse cheapskates" position flawed and undermined because no one of that position has suggested a thing to find out, they just automatically decided they were.
And that alone is a huge problem well beyond these clients. No one knows, they are just jumping to a conclusion based on a lack of knowledge on how to handle the situation correctly and concocting a defense for that in front of their peers.
For the equally lacking in knowledge it may work, for those that know better, it's sad and transparent.

The root of this very unfortunate attitude seems to be a real mix of ignorance and ego...... and that's a very dangerous thing for a one man operation to have if they want to make a decent living and provide for heir families.

Perhaps that isn't the goal of some here. Maybe there is more than I realise that really are just in photography for the ego trip and having a day job to fall back on ( NOT Having a go at the OP specifically although it may well apply) they can indulge themselves in not having to bother to learn how to run a successful stand alone business. That's OK for them but it is not OK or fair to espouse the same unprofessional attitudes and ignorance to others.

And there is another fact here that stating will bruise a few egos and create some indignation in it's truth.
A look at the posting history of a number of people that are arguing the clients were cheap skates shows a VERY strong tendency for those people to post here predominantly in technical discussions about equipment or picture critique. Their interest in this clearly overwhelms any interest in how to run their business successfully or their contribution or participation in those discussions.
Yeah, it took a lot of time to go through a LOT of posts but anyone whom has a nothing better to do and too much time as I have can see and verify that before trying to rebuke it.
It really makes it like a plumber telling a sparkie the best way to run an electrical circuit.

If you never spend any time learning and educating yourself in something, then what the Fk makes you think you are really going to know how to do it well?
I'm sure everyone here would say that you have to study and practice photography to know about and be good at it so similarly, to be good at business would require a lot more than just bumbling through it with no actually time learning or worse still, going on flawed mythical opinion as espoused by those equally lacking in actual knowledge or education on the subject.

No built in features or bit of gear you can get to make you better at business like with equipment you can buy off the shelf so why do those that put Zero or near to it effort into business think they can judge a client and know what their position is when they don't even have the knowledge to ask a single qualifying question to ascertain that?

This isn't about who is right or wrong in a debate, it's about why so many struggle and do it hard in this industry and a significant reason in in the less than favorable position it is and still sinking.

If one is serious about having a successful business, photography or otherwise, you owe it to yourself and those whom may depend on you or just miss you when you are out shooting, to pull your head out of your arse and spend SOME of your time learning how to do what you do, running a business, correctly and efficiently.

If you can't do that, then stick to what you do know like the technical specs of every bit of gear out there that you do spend loads of time researching rather than business or sales that you have never spent a moment educating yourself on and know less about than you even realise.



Mar 19, 2017 at 01:55 AM
Elijah
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Lowballing clients


glort wrote:
Reading back through this thread is really a bit sad.
People are making rather silly and flawed excuses and arguments to justify what really is their lack of knowledge in business.

IF this were a sales or business forum the position would be so different and no one would be suggesting the clients were tight arses without first asking the qualifying questions to see whether they were or not. None of the detractors did that here. Not one. For those knowledgeable in the basics of sales and business, they would all know that the clients were ready to buy ,
...Show more

I'll be honest, I only got to your 3rd paragraph

I have to be SUPER bored to read the rest.


Edited on Mar 20, 2017 at 03:04 AM · View previous versions



Mar 19, 2017 at 02:40 AM
Depth of Feel
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Lowballing clients




I'll be honest, I only got to your 3rd paragraph

I have to be SUPER bored to read the rest.

Basically you said I suck at doing business and you're 100% right
While making 85k a year at my day job, I guess I don't care fore losing a lowballing client.
I would've done things way more different had I did photography full time. Case closed!


Why do we need to know how much you make at your day job?



Mar 19, 2017 at 06:20 AM
glort
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Lowballing clients


Elijah wrote:
I'll be honest, I only got to your 3rd paragraph

I have to be SUPER bored to read the rest.


That's ok, I know learning how to make your business successful isn't as thrilling to many as the latest gear reviews and pontificating about technical things that shooters get excited overt but clients could not care less about. It's also clear that a lot of people have concentration and comprehension issues as some here have admitted already.

There are a small amount of people though that just might find what I said motivating to educate and to improve their business.

Basically you said I suck at doing business and you're 100% right
While making 85k a year at my day job, I guess I don't care fore losing a lowballing client.


What I tried to get across was you and others could do a LOT better in your business with just a little time spend on educating yourself in the basics of business. Not saying you have to be the greatest salesman, marketer or advertising Guru that ever lived, just learn the basics that will cover 90% of the problems shooters face every day and are discussed here.

I take it $85K a year is supposed to be impressive where you are?
Geez. I guess what you make from your photography is what allows you to work in a job you no doubt love but doesn't' pay that great. Things are a lot different here. My wife makes more than that in lower level middle management and I can't remember how long back it was since I was doing that in my business. I understand where you are coming from though. We are in a position now where we can take it a bit more easy than we used to and having had a real wake up call as to the uncertainty of life and how short it can be, we are going out and trying to get our mind off things more than before.

If you are happy with your day job, terrific. Money isn't everything and if you are content with a simple and humble lifestyle, that's what is the most important thing. I remember when I was young and had a high paying job. I was never more miserable. Loads of money and no time to spend or enjoy it. Spose it was a valuable lesson though and in the end it did give me a real kickstart on my own home which owned outright at 27 years old. I wouldn't/ couldn't do that again now though but thankfully, I'll never have to work that hard or with so much stress again.

Some people here would like to do photography full time and that's the angle I tend to think of so what I said, as I mentioned, wasn't directed at you specifically.

I would've done things way more different had I did photography full time. Case closed!

Yep, when you have a fall back you don't have to do things as correctly as you do when your dependent on your business and the income you get from it. Myself, at your apparent age I'd be trying to get the most ROI on my photography I could and build it up to where I could leave that job and make some real money but I guess you love what you do in both cases.

Just the same, I don't believe that is any excuse to defend sloppy business practices or not run one to the best of your potential. To me it's also not an excuse to avoid education which would help you do that.
Insisting and demonstrating a lack of knowledge on something also doesn't' make it right or OK for everyone else to think the same way.

Hope your next client is less of a challenge for you!



Mar 19, 2017 at 08:31 AM
InSanE
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Lowballing clients


Ok, enough BS!
We are in a unique, personal and extremely competitive industry. There is no one solution fits all, and it is naive to think one can learn some dated business/sales techniques, apply them and be successful. Preaching those like they are some kind of godsend, while constantly bashing unbelievers makes me lol so hard it hurts.

Yes you need to know how to run a business, but it takes so much more. Going from client to client preaching same old, same old. Most people are not retarded, so good luck with that car sales pitch.





Mar 19, 2017 at 10:30 AM
 

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Elijah
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Lowballing clients


Depth of Feel wrote:
I'll be honest, I only got to your 3rd paragraph

I have to be SUPER bored to read the rest.

Basically you said I suck at doing business and you're 100% right
While making 85k a year at my day job, I guess I don't care fore losing a lowballing client.
I would've done things way more different had I did photography full time. Case closed!


Why do we need to know how much you make at your day job?

Word



Mar 19, 2017 at 08:25 PM
mitesh
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Lowballing clients



SGallant wrote:
Huh? back at you.

I think your last statement is the key. They weren't sold on why you charge $500 more than the other photographers they saw as being equally capable. So they wanted it in the form of a discount to do business with you. People are never 100% honest with their budgets. And this still looks like an attempt to negotiate with you. People don't just come out and say, I am going to negotiate with you now sir.

Bottom line is you and I are in very different places. If I were in your shoes, I am pretty
...Show more



Mar 20, 2017 at 04:24 AM
mitesh
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Lowballing clients




Depth of Feel wrote:
I'll be honest, I only got to your 3rd paragraph

I have to be SUPER bored to read the rest.

Basically you said I suck at doing business and you're 100% right
While making 85k a year at my day job, I guess I don't care fore losing a lowballing client.
I would've done things way more different had I did photography full time. Case closed!


Why do we need to know how much you make at your day job?



Mar 20, 2017 at 04:24 AM
level1photog
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Lowballing clients


Elijah, I completely understand your point of view. I'm also a part timer and both me and my wife full-time job are 6 figures. I have responded the same way because I find it insulting. My situation was a little bit more insulting: They demanded $1000 off & extra shooter (pricematch someone's package) or they will book someone else.

Glort, TheyCallMeJ, nolaguy, and a few others offered great advices. You have to define whether it is a business or something more than hobby but less of a business (which it is for me). I think if you can set your pride/ego aside, you can negotiate from a position of win-win and capture that contract. If that doesn't work, you can tell them good luck.



Mar 20, 2017 at 06:35 PM
jecottrell
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Lowballing clients


glort wrote:
...no one would be suggesting the clients were tight arses without first asking the qualifying questions to see whether they were or not.


Glort,

Can you educate the folks that are interested about this? No need to waste time on the youngsters with short attention spans that know everything already...But I'd be more than willing invest the couple of minutes to read what you have to say.

Thanks



Mar 20, 2017 at 08:14 PM
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