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Archive 2017 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue

  
 
Steve Perry
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p.24 #1 · p.24 #1 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
I was shooting some snow geese yesterday with the D500 and 200-400VRII I generally shoot BIF, rarely stationary, but these weren't moving. Group, 25 pt, single point, and the AF was like it had ADHD. All over the place and just wouldn't settle down.

I wanted about 600mm so I put the 500 f4VR with 1.4III on the D4s and that ended AF issues. If Nikon doesn't soon release a firmware upgrade for the D500, it's going to be gone.


What'll be interesting is to see how the new D7500 acts. It'a 51 point system, but I'm not sure if it's still the MultiCam 3500DXII or if it will be an updated unit. If it's updated, it will be interesting to see if behaves like the D5/D500 or more like the previous system. I'll be ordering a D7500 via NPS as soon as it comes out and Dynamic AF is the first thing I'll test.



Apr 09, 2017 at 06:25 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #2 · p.24 #2 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


ilkka_nissila wrote:
It could be the lens. The 200-400/4 has quite jittery AF at mid to long distances. By using a DX camera one ends up naturally using the lens for subjects at longer distances that using FX. Also the image is magnified when viewed so any AF problems too get magnified by 1.5X.

I would expect less jittery behavior using a prime lens on the D500, especially f/2.8. I have not used the 500mm but I would try that out with the D500 and see if the AF still jitters on a similar subject.

Notice that with the 200-400/4, only the
...Show more

I haven't had the lens very long but it surpassed my expectations focus wise. Quick and very accurate. I wasn't very far away, within a stones throw really. But I like backlit subjects and I had backlighting on the birds and on the water. I didn't have the ability to switch lenses easily, as I had waded out in the marshy area. But next time out, on solid ground, if it occurs again, I'll try a couple of different lenses as well. Thanks for weighing in.



Apr 09, 2017 at 08:10 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #3 · p.24 #3 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
What'll be interesting is to see how the new D7500 acts. It'a 51 point system, but I'm not sure if it's still the MultiCam 3500DXII or if it will be an updated unit. If it's updated, it will be interesting to see if behaves like the D5/D500 or more like the previous system. I'll be ordering a D7500 via NPS as soon as it comes out and Dynamic AF is the first thing I'll test.


That might be the only way we determine if the D5 / D500 is as intended. By what Nikon does with future bodies. Hopefully not, but time will tell.




Apr 09, 2017 at 08:12 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.24 #4 · p.24 #4 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Backlighting with birds in water sounds really tricky. I would use a single cross-type AF point and try positioning the camera as low as possible to the ground to create more distance between the subject and background water ripples and reflections.


Apr 10, 2017 at 06:09 AM
sk66
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p.24 #5 · p.24 #5 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
Yeah, 3D works better for some subjects than others. It's can be good at keeping on a "whole" subject, but exactly where it sticks is another matter. For full length shots of people doing things, it's actually quite good sometimes, for wildlife I tend get frustrated with it.


For photographing people it's probably a good idea to enable face detection w/ 3d... no idea how that might affect AF w/ wildlife.



Apr 10, 2017 at 08:29 AM
Steve Perry
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p.24 #6 · p.24 #6 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


sk66 wrote:
For photographing people it's probably a good idea to enable face detection w/ 3d... no idea how that might affect AF w/ wildlife.


Works good with people, is horrific with wildlife. EDIT: OK, it's the same with wildlife as non-face detection



Apr 10, 2017 at 08:43 AM
daves cliches
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p.24 #7 · p.24 #7 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Hi,
A substitute for dynamic AF mode........AUTO AREA AF MODE.

"AF Auto area mode" is great for wheeling and turning erratic birds like terns!

So I have been trying the AF Auto mode, this uses the full 153 AF points and it's designed function is to focus on whatever is nearest to the camera, Nikon has this mode as a default on many of it's bodies and is effectively offered as a beginners AF for those not yet familiar with modern day AF systems.

Shooting small terns in flight with their erratic and unpredictable flight patterns when wheeling and turning (sorry for the pun), is one of the most difficult subjects to follow, however I've found the Auto mode with it's full field of focus points manages to find and follow the birds and produces a good percentage of perfectly focused shots.

It is already difficult to find the bird in the VF at 600mm, so the Auto AF mode comes to the rescue in this situation. I'm very happy that this goes some way to compensate for what I find to be the somewhat crippled dynamic AF modes.


Please find images here at this link: at Nikon Pro APSc DPreview:


https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4141420

Try Auto area mode......it can also track BIF in front of tree lines see the link!



Apr 10, 2017 at 03:11 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #8 · p.24 #8 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


UPDATE from Ken G on DPR. Seems Nikon is saying the dynamic AF should function the same as all previous Nikons but that the focus point displayed is different from previous models.

Here's the leadup and reply from Nikon

"I contacted Nikon Support about the Dynamic AF issue a few weeks ago, and we have been doing a bit of back and forth since then. Today I received a message from them stating that they have talked with the corporate office in Japan

"and they let us know that the behavior of Dynamic Area on the D500 should be the same as that on previous cameras. We have, however, changed the display of the focus point for pictures taken with Dynamic Area AF. Previous models would display the focus point chosen by the camera if the subject moved away from the selected point. The D500 and the D5 have been changed to display the focus point initially selected by the photographer instead.

Your original message indicates that your camera does not appear to be moving along to the supplemental points as needed. We'd like to take a look at 2-3 unedited sample images showing the problem. Its important that we receive unedited samples so the meta data remains intact...""



Apr 18, 2017 at 05:50 PM
Steve Perry
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p.24 #9 · p.24 #9 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
UPDATE from Ken G on DPR. Seems Nikon is saying the dynamic AF should function the same as all previous Nikons but that the focus point displayed is different from previous models.

Here's the leadup and reply from Nikon

"I contacted Nikon Support about the Dynamic AF issue a few weeks ago, and we have been doing a bit of back and forth since then. Today I received a message from them stating that they have talked with the corporate office in Japan

"and they let us know that the behavior of Dynamic Area on the D500 should be the same as
...Show more

Well, once they try it, they'll see it's not working as before - fingers crossed for an update

You'd think they could just grab one and test it - it's really not that hard to see the issue...

Thanks for the update



Apr 18, 2017 at 05:57 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #10 · p.24 #10 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
Well, once they try it, they'll see it's not working as before - fingers crossed for an update

You'd think they could just grab one and test it - it's really not that hard to see the issue...

Thanks for the update


No problem. Didn't think it would be long before you saw it. It looks like it's a step in the right direction.



Apr 18, 2017 at 06:31 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #11 · p.24 #11 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
No problem. Didn't think it would be long before you saw it. It looks like it's a step in the right direction.


I'm really surprised this thread has fallen by the wayside, both here and on DPR. The "problem" or any hope of it being addressed may have died as well. Seems like dynamic AF shooters are few and far between, at least over on DPR. Too bad. I was hoping for some info from Nikon.



May 13, 2017 at 04:18 PM
kwilliam8
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p.24 #12 · p.24 #12 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
I'm really surprised this thread has fallen by the wayside, both here and on DPR. The "problem" or any hope of it being addressed may have died as well. Seems like dynamic AF shooters are few and far between, at least over on DPR. Too bad. I was hoping for some info from Nikon.


I agree. Someone over at DPR had mentioned that their Nikon contact had hinted at a possible firmware update, but nothing so far. My contact at Nikon has not provided any additional information even though they did forward my query (with links to this thread) to NPS. While I really like and appreciate Nikon products, their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. And btw, I still use dynamic area AF modes on my D5 and D500. So, this issue matters to me, at least.
Keith W.



May 13, 2017 at 04:41 PM
Keiththom
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p.24 #13 · p.24 #13 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


I was having great success getting in focus action shots on birds with my D7100 and 9 point Dynamic area AF in spite of the lousy buffer that kept bogging down. I have struggled to do the same with 25 pt dynamic AF with my D500. I was perplexed because I'm constantly hearing praises for the D500 AF. I believe this issue was exactly why I struggled going from the D7100 to the D500.


May 13, 2017 at 07:43 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #14 · p.24 #14 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Keiththom wrote:
I was having great success getting in focus action shots on birds with my D7100 and 9 point Dynamic area AF in spite of the lousy buffer that kept bogging down. I have struggled to do the same with 25 pt dynamic AF with my D500. I was perplexed because I'm constantly hearing praises for the D500 AF. I believe this issue was exactly why I struggled going from the D7100 to the D500.


For a lot of people, D9, AF-C, AF-ON, A3 set to off was the go to settings for BIF with Nikon bodies. It certainly was for me. First time I shot D25 on the D500, about 7 months ago, I knew something was wrong. Thanks to Steve and a couple of other fellows who figured it out, I now know what the problem is.
For subjects I can use group for on the D500, I'll use the D500. Otherwise, I use the D4s.



May 13, 2017 at 08:03 PM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #15 · p.24 #15 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


kwilliam8 wrote:
I agree. Someone over at DPR had mentioned that their Nikon contact had hinted at a possible firmware update, but nothing so far. My contact at Nikon has not provided any additional information even though they did forward my query (with links to this thread) to NPS. While I really like and appreciate Nikon products, their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. And btw, I still use dynamic area AF modes on my D5 and D500. So, this issue matters to me, at least.
Keith W.


Might have been KenG. From what I remember he was going on an extended trip, so that has probably fallen away as well.



May 13, 2017 at 08:05 PM
Keiththom
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p.24 #16 · p.24 #16 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


T-O Shooter wrote:
For a lot of people, D9, AF-C, AF-ON, A3 set to off was the go to settings for BIF with Nikon bodies. It certainly was for me. First time I shot D25 on the D500, about 7 months ago, I knew something was wrong. Thanks to Steve and a couple of other fellows who figured it out, I now know what the problem is.
For subjects I can use group for on the D500, I'll use the D500. Otherwise, I use the D4s.


I bought the D500 primarily to shoot birds of prey pursuing game low across the ground. Dynamic on the D7100 did fine. Not so much on the D500. I briefly tried group, but it kept locking on every blade of grass that the bird crossed behind. For now, I'm undecided on how to attempt these shots next fall when I'll be doing the same.



May 14, 2017 at 04:21 AM
Steve Perry
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p.24 #17 · p.24 #17 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Personally, I'm curious to see two things:

First, if a firmware update will be issued. I know it's been awhile since this was brought up, but I'm sure it take awhile for this type of thing to sift down through all the layers at Nikon HQ.

Second, I'm wondering if we see this same AF behavior in the new cameras. I have a D7500 on the way, so that'll be the first thing I test.



May 14, 2017 at 08:10 AM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #18 · p.24 #18 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Keiththom wrote:
I bought the D500 primarily to shoot birds of prey pursuing game low across the ground. Dynamic on the D7100 did fine. Not so much on the D500. I briefly tried group, but it kept locking on every blade of grass that the bird crossed behind. For now, I'm undecided on how to attempt these shots next fall when I'll be doing the same.


IMO, the D500 just will not work for you for that. Only other option is single point, but if Dynamic, which is basically working as an enhanced single point, doesn't work, single point would be even more difficult. I've always said group is a niche mode, and your application doesn't fall into that niche.



May 14, 2017 at 09:56 AM
T-O Shooter
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p.24 #19 · p.24 #19 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Steve Perry wrote:
Personally, I'm curious to see two things:

First, if a firmware update will be issued. I know it's been awhile since this was brought up, but I'm sure it take awhile for this type of thing to sift down through all the layers at Nikon HQ.

Second, I'm wondering if we see this same AF behavior in the new cameras. I have a D7500 on the way, so that'll be the first thing I test.


You're probably right on the firmware. I'm being too anxious to get it working right. It could probably be a year, if they even consider it.

I don't know if Nikon would bother to address it on the D7500 It's at least a couple of notches down the food chain, so the fellows that would generally buy a D7500 wouldn't even notice considering how few seems to have noticed it on the D5 and D500.

Anyway, fingers still crossed on it.



May 14, 2017 at 10:04 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.24 #20 · p.24 #20 · UPDATE - Nikon D5/D500 Dynamic AF Issue


Since the D7500 uses Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II and has a higher resolution matrix metering sensor than the D7200, the AF is likely to be similar to that in the D750.

A situation where a subject is moving past obstacles such as branches is difficult for any autofocus system. I think the main problem here is that the D500/D5 AF is so fast and sensitive it will try to focus on branches and the subject in turn, unless the programming (Blocked subject response and Subject motion) can be used to tune the system for the subject in this case. I've never felt too comfortable relying on the camera handling a situation where the subject is temporarily blocked, so I avoid it and shoot the subject with a clean and direct line of sight where possible.

The flip side of the coin is that the D5 will respond very quickly to changes in subject motion where previous cameras would miss focus and take a long time to reacquire focus at times. I think the advantages are obvious even if it means the operator has to be precise as well to get the most out of the system. In some situations I've had D810 get 30% of the shots in focus at wide apertures whereas the D5 >90. The difference isn't always this big obviously. In my experience the D5's Multi-CAM 20k produces the largest differences in focus performance (compared to the old system) with fast primes (f/1.4, f/2) and in particular, the longer distances now are handled well as well whereas with D8x0 family cameras this was an issue, especially with the D800. I shoot a lot of verticals where the subject's face is under a linear point using the Multi-CAM 3500 family sensors and the focus results can be erratic, whereas the D5 with its cross type sensors does a solid job of focusing on facial detail near the edge of the frame even in an approaching subject situation. Unfortunately, these cross sensors at the last columns of the array, are only used as linear type with many f/4 and all f/5.6 lenses which reduces the advantage of the new system when using such lenses for this type of applications somewhat. It's still good but not quite as bombproof as with f/2.8 and faster lenses.

I shot some half-marathon runners on Saturday using 9-point dynamic area (it may have been six points actually since the actual number of points in the dynamic area (or group area depends on which columns one is using), it seemed to work as expected, not losing focus when the selected focus point was temporarily outside of the head. Since the runners were close (half body with 300mm) there is no way it could have done that without continuing to focus using the other points. I didn't get perfect results but a very high percentage of shots in focus still, using the 300mm f/4 PF. The 9-point area was about the right size considering the size of the runner's head in the frame and the precision with which I could hold the focus point on the target. In this kind of situations the D810 would have a tendency to focus on the hair because it has more texture than the face, but the D5 is able to see facial detail and focus on it with confidence.

I've used group area AF a lot in similar situations in the past as it is fast and reliable but with 9-point dynamic I could choose a subject in the middle of a group and keep that subject in focus for the duration of their approach instead of having to choose a subject which is already relatively close. It's more precise in that sense. Also if the subject wears a cap, group area AF would easily focus on the tip of the cap rather than the face, whereas with 9-point dynamic I didn't get that kind of errors. Still, I've found group area AF works great for distant subjects where the head is small in the frame and it is still my favorite choice for photographing action in general. The cap issue is definitely solved better using the 9-point dynamic though.

Following the tips on Nikon's NPS sports AF pages the D5 AF works as described at least for me. It operates on a very fast time scale and this is great for me, it allows greater precision of focus in complicated action situations. It's quite amazing to see only a few percent of focus rejects on a routine basis, using fast lenses (a single digit error rate is typical for walking or slowly moving subjects; for runners I would say I got 10-20% slightly out of focus using 9-pt dynamic on the face using the 300/4 PF). I can definitely imagine it failing to focus on a subject flying behind obstructions though. I don't think this is an easy problem to solve. If at all possible, I would shoot from a position with a clear view of the subject to avoid this problem.



May 15, 2017 at 05:06 AM
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