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Archive 2017 · to feed or not to feed

  
 
nugeny
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · to feed or not to feed


In showed some pictures of snow owls from my last trip. Some felt invited to talk or even to condemn the fact that some of us feed the animals (I don't want to use the word "bait". Baiting fish to catch/kill them. That is not the case with the snow owls.)
Well if you want to voice your opinion about this issue, here is the opportunity. Please don't hesitate.





A snowee got fed by photographers







my "leo" got fed by me.







I feed wild birds in my backyard.




Feb 21, 2017 at 04:28 PM
ronr75
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · to feed or not to feed


Baiting is baiting anyway you prefer to name it. Snowy owls hover and dive head first at the target animal. We really don't need to train these owls to not fear humans.


Feb 21, 2017 at 06:25 PM
labountyphoto
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · to feed or not to feed


I was in Yellowstone last summer and tossed a frito to a scavenging raven. I nearby woman went ballistic on me, saying I was teaching it to eat food from humans. I had to leave or lose my temper. Birds will eat anything any time. That is how they survive.



Feb 21, 2017 at 06:52 PM
eyelaser
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · to feed or not to feed


There are two distinct issues Bob. One is baiting itself and whether or not it is harmful. That is debatable (no pun intended)...people will argue both sides and provide statistics and opinions to back up their claim. The other issue is disclosing the fact that a photo was obtained in a manner other than what is "natural". Specifically for predators, whether avian or otherwise, it is considered inappropriate to suggest a photo was done in the wild without baiting just as it is inappropriate to suggest a captive animal was photographed in the wild. Does it diminish the quality of the image, no, but it does change the skill level needed to acquire such a photo. I consider myself a below average bird in flight photographer yet I could likely get good images if I knew exactly where to focus. I am not fooling anyone, least of all myself, if I were to get great images of an owl hunting in a controlled situation. I have photographed numerous owls and literally have had two fly towards me...one was a burrowing owl bringing a lizard back to the burrow and I was lucky to be positioned correctly and the other a Verreaux's Eagle Owl for reasons I can not explain that decided to launch right at us and over my head....those images are amongst my favorites because of the rarity of getting them in the wild without any "coaxing".
If you are happy with your images and don't have any issue with the manner in which they were acquired that's great but you should understand why others may. Disclosing how they were obtained goes a long way to people accepting the images (see the Blackiston Fishing owl thread for one example) for what they are IMHO.
Hopefully you will get other opportunities to photograph snowy owls and will get the thrill of doing so after searching for them for 8 hours which adds another dimension to the experience.
Eric
Eric



Feb 21, 2017 at 06:59 PM
suteetat
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · to feed or not to feed


I am not sure if feeding/baiting will make wild animal become so trusting to human automatically.
From what I can see, Blakiston's owl fish that I saw recently in Japan, after many years of baiting provided by an inn such that you can pretty much see the owls every night, they remained incredibly skittish and if anyone appears anywhere near the stream, they will not come in. Around 1900's, there were about 20 pair of red crowned crane left in Japan. Through local effort to preserve, including feeding by the local and eventually government's participation, now we have over 1000 red crowned cranes in Tsurui marsh area.
Beside domesticated animal, certain wild animal's behavior can change for sure. If you see whale sharks that are fed in Donsol, the Philippines or Cenderawasih in Indonesia, it is a little bit disturbing as they become almost like puppies and since feeding was done on a large scale, their migration pattern does get disturbed as they become localized and one has to wonder if there will be any significant long term impact.
Some animals can become very aggressive or invasive after they are used to human's feeding. In Thailand, certain group of monkeys now are not afraid of human and will steal any loose items on your clothing when you are close by. You can also see occasional snow monkeys in Japan that are now approching human which is a bit alarming.
I would not say that feeding is bad in all situation but certainly on certain species and frequency of feeding and method, some animals' behavior can change for the worse but feeding does have its place as well.

Edited on Feb 21, 2017 at 07:15 PM · View previous versions



Feb 21, 2017 at 07:12 PM
PhilPDX
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · to feed or not to feed


You are not only baiting the animals, Robert, you are also baiting photographers to follow your footsteps and copy your images. Before you know it there's a huge crowd at your favorite spot, and then the wildlife simply disappears. Not worth it, if you ask me.

-Phil



Feb 21, 2017 at 07:13 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · to feed or not to feed


I'll chime in with my opinion since I instigated it in the other two threads.

First of all there are a lot of photographers baiting owls out there. Over on BirdPhotographers.net it is pretty much the norm and the photographers that frequent that forum are okay with the practice BUT they have a huge disclaimer that any photographs posted must be disclosed that baiting was used. The use of bait, or captive animal photography should be disclosed with the posting whether it is on here, Facebook or in a gallery showroom.

There is one side of the issue that using bait is taking the skill out of wildlife photography and that side also can be applied to hummingbird feeders, ducks at the park and backyard bird feeders. I think all of those things should be disclosed when posting such shots.

I don't have issue with all types of baiting. I don't have issue with backyard feeders or hummingbird feeders or feeding your cat. Your cat is your pet, you are supposed to feed it. It has been studied and shown that backyard feeders are helpful to the birds and are not overly detrimental (although even then one could argue that attracting them close to windows will lead to more deaths by collisions with said windows).

As to baiting owls....even then I don't have a clear cut stance on it. One argument against is the potential health of a pet store mouse and that they may carry more disease or parasites than a wild one (really I have no idea if that is true or valid so I won't go into that point at all). Others may have more to say on it or more research on it.

The bigger argument and one that I do agree with is the danger to the owl in habituating it to humans. A couple years back there were a bunch of videos online showing the photographers having the owl so habituated it would land on them and would fly back and forth across the road where it was at increased likelihood of being hit by a car. It loses its fear of humans that can put it in danger.

However, in contrast to the above, if we ignore the potential diseased mouse argument, then if one is driving rural Ontario, Quebec or Minnesota roads and finding a random owl where no one else is around and you bait the thing with a couple mice and get a couple nice head on shots. Then you leave that area and don't return, I think that the risk to the owl is negligible and really if you disclosed the fact in your post then I really wouldn't have an issue with it. When I was finding Northern Hawk Owls this year I would drive 200kms along a highway in rural Yukon and eventually spot one or two each outing. I never did bait them and I witnessed two successful wild hunts but I feel that if I did bait one of them on one outing one time and never returned to that same owl day in and day out and considering how remote the area was that it really wouldn't be harmful to the owl. I would disclose the fact that I did what I did when posting my images and that would be that.

When it really gets unethical and out of hand is when multiple groups of photographers are there day after day, constantly baiting an owl or two in the same location. This leads to big problems that I don't think even the bait proponents would deny. The GGO that was subject of that online video a few years back would be a good example of that. Unfortunately the perpetrators pulled that video after it went viral. The even more despicable situation is where photographers use dead mice on a fishing line/rod and don't even allow the owl to get the prey...just constantly waisting energy.

A really good example of where too much gets out of hand is the lady in Homer AK who fed those bald eagles for years. The practice was illegal but the government grandfathered her in until she passed away. The next season after she passed the city was forced to feed the eagles again because 100s were starving without their expected baited food source they had enjoyed for many many years. The following year I believe they did stop the feeding and dealt with the consequences in hope that the eagles would learn not to return. So even after years of supposedly "helping" the eagles through the winter, in the end the practice resulted in the death of many eagles.

I will repost the articles I posted in the snowy owl thread for others to read up on some opinions out there. As I see I was once again censored on this forum which is starting to get ridiculous but I digress. In the end it is an ethical decision one has to make not only towards their own photography but to their own opinion on the effect it has on the owls.

http://www.audubon.org/news/why-you-shouldnt-feed-or-bait-owls
http://www.thebirdingproject.com/blog/ethicsandowls
http://pqspb.org/bpqpoq/owl-baiting-for-fun-and-profit-the-ethics-of-owl-and-raptor-photography/
http://blog.lauraerickson.com/2014/02/baiting-owls.html



Feb 21, 2017 at 07:25 PM
rw11
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · to feed or not to feed


maybe the Audubon Society knows something:

http://www.audubon.org/news/why-you-shouldnt-feed-or-bait-owls




Feb 21, 2017 at 07:40 PM
EGrav
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · to feed or not to feed


arbitrage wrote:
I'll chime in with my opinion since I instigated it in the other two threads.

First of all there are a lot of photographers baiting owls out there. Over on BirdPhotographers.net it is pretty much the norm and the photographers that frequent that forum are okay with the practice BUT they have a huge disclaimer that any photographs posted must be disclosed that baiting was used. The use of bait, or captive animal photography should be disclosed with the posting whether it is on here, Facebook or in a gallery showroom.

There is one side of the issue that using bait is
...Show more


The situation in Homer with the Eagle Lady (Jeanne Keene) really had nothing to do with feeding the eagles. It was a political witch hunt by someone who used to work for her. Long, long story but the State of Alaska Wildlife and Fisheries, the Federal equivalent (I forgot the agency's name), etc all OK'd her feeding. Multiple lawsuits against her failed. So Homer's city council made it illegal within city limits, grandfathered her because of her popularity and she died a few years later. Another instance of a few anencephalics ruining a situation for the majority. You can feed eagles outside the Homer city limits and that's where the photo workshops go now. If you want more of the details, let me know in a PM. I was fortunate enough to shoot from her compound multiple times and was present when a lot of the bullspit happened.



Feb 21, 2017 at 07:52 PM
nugeny
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · to feed or not to feed


arbitrage wrote:
I'll chime in with my opinion since I instigated it in the other two threads.

First of all there are a lot of photographers baiting owls out there. Over on BirdPhotographers.net it is pretty much the norm and the photographers that frequent that forum are okay with the practice BUT they have a huge disclaimer that any photographs posted must be disclosed that baiting was used. The use of bait, or captive animal photography should be disclosed with the posting whether it is on here, Facebook or in a gallery showroom.

There is one side of the issue that using bait is
...Show more

---------------------------------------------

rw11 wrote:
maybe the Audubon Society knows something:

http://www.audubon.org/news/why-you-shouldnt-feed-or-bait-owls



It is worth while to read the comments that followed the Audubon's writings. Audubon thinks they can/may do anything in name of research. I think some of the comments are very much common sense.



Feb 21, 2017 at 07:58 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · to feed or not to feed


nugeny wrote:
---------------------------------------------

It is worth while to read the comments that followed the Audubon's writings. Audubon thinks they can/may do anything in name of research. I think some of the comments are very much common sense.


I don't agree with a lot of Audubon practices either. I don't disagree with some of the comments against the article. Again I don't have a hard one sided stance on any of this. I consider each situation individually. All I really wish is for people to disclose the use of bait when presenting Wildlife photographs so I can view them from that standpoint.



Feb 21, 2017 at 08:09 PM
morris
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · to feed or not to feed


Animals must eat and will eat when they want to eat.

Is it bad to put out bird feeders?

Is it bad to keep a dog or cat as a pet?

Is it bad to "rescue" an injured animal and keep in captivity where it can survive?

Is it wrong to eat the food that others pick for you?

One can go on and on.

Morris



Feb 21, 2017 at 08:18 PM
Mr.Gale
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · to feed or not to feed


Maybe I should change my avatar as it shows me baiting a lion.

Mr.G



Feb 21, 2017 at 08:20 PM
rw11
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · to feed or not to feed


research provides new knowledge - a public benefit




Feb 21, 2017 at 08:45 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · to feed or not to feed


arbitrage wrote:
The use of bait, or captive animal photography should be disclosed with the posting whether it is on here, Facebook or in a gallery showroom.

There is one side of the issue that using bait is taking the skill out of wildlife photography and that side also can be applied to hummingbird feeders, ducks at the park and backyard bird feeders. I think all of those things should be disclosed when posting such shots.


Why? It does not change the image one iota, only the mindset of the person viewing it.

Is an image of a tiger taken in the wild better than one taken in a zoo because the former took more skill? That means the person viewing the image is judging the image on how it was taken, not just what the image looks like on its own.

Depends on one's criteria as to what makes a good wildlife photo, I guess.



Feb 21, 2017 at 09:37 PM
birdied
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · to feed or not to feed


These discussions are always very thought provoking for me. Geoff, thanks for the links.

My general philosophy is when in doubt, don't. I really don't know what is right or wrong or if there is a right or wrong with baiting owls. However, I do strongly feel that baiting them with cat toys or fake mice is VERY WRONG.

I feed the birds all year and have hummingbird feeders, I also feed my cat and dog So, if that is considered baiting, then guilty.







arbitrage wrote:


There is one side of the issue that using bait is taking the skill out of wildlife photography and that side also can be applied to hummingbird feeders, ducks at the park and backyard bird feeders. I think all of those things should be disclosed when posting such shots.


I chuckled to myself when I read the above, as I know my skill level in not where it needs to be, but my goodness I still find getting the hummers in flight challenging at times

Not sure throwing a mouse to an owl would make it easier for me to get the shot !


Imagemaster wrote
Is an image of a tiger taken in the wild better than one taken in a zoo because the former took more skill? That means the person viewing the image is judging the image on how it was taken, not just what the image looks like on its own.

Depends on one's criteria as to what makes a good wildlife photo, I guess.


I find this comment most interesting and gives me pause about what does make an image .

Eyelaser wrote
Hopefully you will get other opportunities to photograph snowy owls and will get the thrill of doing so after searching for them for 8 hours which adds another dimension to the experience.
Eric


Eric, hit the nail on the head for me , the experience adds so much. Nothing surpasses the total joy of a wonderful surprise supplied by nature.

Birdie






Edited on Feb 21, 2017 at 11:00 PM · View previous versions



Feb 21, 2017 at 10:16 PM
nugeny
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · to feed or not to feed


"will get the thrill of doing so after searching for them for 8 hours which addaves another dimension to the experience "

Well, easy to say when you have every thing and time at your disposal. What it you had only one chance, one time? and you have to get the picture....



Feb 21, 2017 at 10:41 PM
eyelaser
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · to feed or not to feed


nugeny wrote:
"will get the thrill of doing so after searching for them for 8 hours which addaves another dimension to the experience "

Well, easy to say when you have every thing and time at your disposal. What it you had only one chance, one time? and you have to get the picture....


I've been in that situation many times and sometimes it doesn't work out and you accept that. Hard to believe with all your travels that you couldn't manage a second go at it but that's really not my business. But again you are missing my point. It's not about seeing a snowy or other special bird in the wild it's how you presented it as though not
In a controlled situation. The fact you saw a snowy IMHO ought to be enough and and if you managed some flight shots even if at an angle that might have been the cherry on top. It's the baited shots that were not disclosed as such that caused all the outcry. Honestly in the spectrum of everything else out there this is really quite unimportant but being honest is important.
And I hope it will just fade away.
Bob, keep on shooting and enjoying the hobby and seeing all nature has to offer.
Eric

Edited on Feb 22, 2017 at 09:51 AM · View previous versions



Feb 21, 2017 at 11:06 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · to feed or not to feed


Imagemaster wrote:
Why? It does not change the image one iota, only the mindset of the person viewing it.

Is an image of a tiger taken in the wild better than one taken in a zoo because the former took more skill? That means the person viewing the image is judging the image on how it was taken, not just what the image looks like on its own.

Depends on one's criteria as to what makes a good wildlife photo, I guess.


I never said anything about baited vs non-baited making a better image one way of the other. Personally I appreciate an image of a tiger that was taken in the wild more than one at the zoo. I won't say that one or the other will be the better image as that could go either way but to me I appreciate the effort to get one in the wild. I'm also not saying that taking an image in the wild is always more difficult. Sometimes trying to shoot through fences and bars and avoiding bad backgrounds in a zoo is much more difficult than seeing a tiger from the back of an elephant in India and taking a shot of it in a wild open field or on a dirt road. And the images of tigers on those dirt roads in India are pretty terrible images IMHO. I've seen much more captivating images of tigers in a zoo.

But lets take your bathing eagles efforts as an example. If someone showed me an image of a bathing eagle from an aviary and then you showed me yours from your hours of efforts in a blind I would appreciate your images a lot more. Probably yours will be better also but even if they weren't I'd appreciate the effort more.

Edited on Feb 22, 2017 at 08:37 AM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2017 at 08:27 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · to feed or not to feed


nugeny wrote:
"will get the thrill of doing so after searching for them for 8 hours which addaves another dimension to the experience "

Well, easy to say when you have every thing and time at your disposal. What it you had only one chance, one time? and you have to get the picture....


Why do you "have to get the picture"? That is the question I'd be asking myself.



Feb 22, 2017 at 08:31 AM
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