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Archive 2017 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...

  
 
Dutch937
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


I switched to Nikon in the fall (from Canon and Fuji) and I shoot a mix of landscape & wildlife (birds and dogs primarily). I currently have a D750 and I really like this body...But, I am lacking in frames per second and buffer vs either of the above two and a bit of focus speed vs the D500. Also, I would like to have the crop factor when shooting birds, as we all know we can never get close enough.
My main lens right now for this type of shooting is the 300mm f4 PF with a 1.4x mark 3. I won't be picking up another lens anytime soon, so this will be the set up.

My dilemma is this ... I have tried the D500 on 2 occasions and I am finding the IQ vs my D750 isn't close. The images on the back of the camera look good, but once I load them into LR, they seem soft and noisy vs the 750. Not horrible, but definitely hard to get used to. Having the crop factor really helps, but I'm not sure I can get used to the way the images look.

If I were to buy a used D4, I would get the FPS and the image quality, but I would sacrifice the crop factor and also pixels (but I'm not so concerned about that unless I am having to really crop in post).

Has anyone had this experience or dilemma in purchasing the D500, mostly related to IQ vs Full Frame?? I see such good images online from those using the D500, so it's making this decision hard.
Basically, I can get a used D4 for around $2400 and a used D500 for around $2100 (Canadian $$).
BTW, I am not looking to replace the D750, it will stay in the bag for landscapes ect...



Feb 06, 2017 at 12:03 PM
rico
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


My frontline cameras (D3X, A7ii, D500) have 24MP or so. With processing, they deliver the same IQ—even the D500 with DX sensor and 4MP handicap. Like all single-digit bodies, the D4 has attractions all its own, but D500 images are not soft and noisy once the workflow is tuned.


Feb 06, 2017 at 12:28 PM
Christian H
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


The D500 does okay in good light and whenever you don't need to crop very much. I find that aggressive use of sharpening and noise reduction tools in ACR takes care of most problems, but it's still a crop sensor: the files are comparatively flat and noisy. If the AF system weren't so good, I wouldn't be using it at all (the D800 being my favorite wildlife body of all time.)

Christian



Feb 06, 2017 at 12:29 PM
Dutch937
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


rico wrote:
My frontline cameras (D3X, A7ii, D500) have 24MP or so. With processing, they deliver the same IQ—even the D500 with DX sensor and 4MP handicap. Like all single-digit bodies, the D4 has attractions all its own, but D500 images are not soft and noisy once the workflow is tuned.


---------------------------------------------

Christian H wrote:
The D500 does okay in good light and whenever you don't need to crop very much. I find that aggressive use of sharpening and noise reduction tools in ACR takes care of most problems, but it's still a crop sensor: the files are comparatively flat and noisy. If the AF system weren't so good, I wouldn't be using it at all (the D800 being my favorite wildlife body of all time.)

Christian



This is exactly what I found when trying the D500... Just seemed to need a lot more sharpening ect..in post than the equivalent photo taken with my D750. If this is the case with the majority of those who are using the D500, then I just need to manage my expectations and the D500 would then make the most sense.




Feb 06, 2017 at 12:41 PM
Steve Perry
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Sounds like you want the D4

The D500 is fantastic, but unless you need the crop factor / high pixel density, I'd say go with full frame. My guideline would be this - if you think you're going to crop to DX size with the D4 on a very regular basis, then go D500 - it will be better. Otherwise, stick to full frame.



Feb 06, 2017 at 02:10 PM
Dutch937
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Steve Perry wrote:
Sounds like you want the D4

The D500 is fantastic, but unless you need the crop factor / high pixel density, I'd say go with full frame. My guideline would be this - if you think you're going to crop to DX size with the D4 on a very regular basis, then go D500 - it will be better. Otherwise, stick to full frame.


Thanks Steve! I'm open minded about suggestions. What you say makes a lot of sense. I believe until I get a 500 f4, I will be cropping a lot if I continue to use FF.

The 3 or 4 times I used the D500, the light was crappy (gloomy and grey), so maybe that had something to do with the IQ...but everyone raves about the low light capabilities?? Those same days I compared directly with the 750 and the images seemed cleaner and more contrast. After post, I could get them looking very similar as long as you weren't pixel peeping.



Feb 06, 2017 at 02:24 PM
Christian H
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


In gloomy weather the D500 still delivers fairly good results at ISO 1100 and ISO 1600. That's significantly better compared to the D300s. For my money, rendering of color and detail start falling apart around ISO 2200. If shooting in gloomy weather is something you expect to do a lot, get a D4.

ISO 1100
"Monday" by Christian Hunold, on Flickr

ISO 1600
barred owl by Christian Hunold, on Flickr

ISO 2200
canada goose by Christian Hunold, on Flickr



Feb 06, 2017 at 03:22 PM
SoundHound
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Certainly good D500 results for viewing on web platforms however, crop sensors are approx 40% the area of FF. I shoot my D500 at ISO 3200 and still the files are not as "pliable" as my D5 set at ISO 12.800.

Realize that JPEGs are processed, in camera, to minimize noise at the expense of detail, etc. When you shoot RAW under low light conditions and adjust the files you will see that there's No Free Sensor Lunch.

This is brutal physics. You lose, effective, ISO with crop sensors due to noise and you lose light due to optics with Tele extenders. So if you can buy enough glass to get you close enough with FF you will be better off. My vote is for the D4 at least you can a 1.4 or 1.7 TC and remove it when possible.



Feb 06, 2017 at 04:43 PM
Dutch937
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


SoundHound wrote:
Certainly good D500 results for viewing on web platforms however, crop sensors are approx 40% the area of FF. I shoot my D500 at ISO 3200 and still the files are not as "pliable" as my D5 set at ISO 12.800.

Realize that JPEGs are processed, in camera, to minimize noise at the expense of detail, etc. When you shoot RAW under low light conditions and adjust the files you will see that there's No Free Sensor Lunch.

This is brutal physics. You lose, effective, ISO with crop sensors due to noise and you lose light due to optics with
...Show more

Good points Soundhound! Thx.



Feb 06, 2017 at 04:53 PM
mp0363
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Dutch937 wrote:
Has anyone had this experience or dilemma in purchasing the D500, mostly related to IQ vs Full Frame?? I see such good images online from those using the D500, so it's making this decision hard...


I certainly did. Love my D750 sensor, but wanting faster mechanics I did two rentals of the D500 with "no" being my takeaway.

I also rented the D5 and in some ways was disappointed in both the sensor and the mechanics. A big camera is a something you have to experience for yourself but after that rental I also tossed out any ideas about a D4/D4s.

Like you, I kept seeing images shared that had pop and detail, so I took another look at my lightroom files while thinking over the advantages of Dx (like you, I'll always keep a Fx body so I'm not worried about the disadvantages of crop).

With the holiday sales I bought a D500 along with a new lens (70-200fl). The color, pop, and detail, oh my! It can not hang with the D750 for landscapes and environmental portraiture because it struggles with the extremes of light and dark. Poor DR due to specular highlight handling and it's like a Canon in when the ISO climbs over 4000. But if I am ideal conditions (not too extreme either way) it's a total joy to shoot with and the results are stellar.

As was mentioned above (I've found this with different lenses as well) you do have to get used to the file handling so as to get the best from the camera. I wouldn't put a teleconverter on her either.



Feb 06, 2017 at 05:55 PM
Dutch937
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


mp0363 wrote:
I certainly did. Love my D750 sensor, but wanting faster mechanics I did two rentals of the D500 with "no" being my takeaway.

I also rented the D5 and in some ways was disappointed in both the sensor and the mechanics. A big camera is a something you have to experience for yourself but after that rental I also tossed out any ideas about a D4/D4s.

Like you, I kept seeing images shared that had pop and detail, so I took another look at my lightroom files while thinking over the advantages of Dx (like you, I'll always keep a Fx
...Show more


Very interesting! My 300mm f4 PF with the 1.4 almost has no difference in IQ or AF performance when i use it with the D750. If the tele would have more impact when using the crop sensor, i guess i would be more tempted to buy a D4 and use the tele.
When i was with Canon, i used a 1DX, so i'm used to the pro body (size and quality) and with a 500mm and tele, the image quality was amazing. So, i guess long term, i might be better off with the D4, use a tele and save for a big prime.
This all assuming the D500 won't handle a tele the same way the full frame will.




Feb 06, 2017 at 07:39 PM
Dbltfarmer
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Both the D500 and the D750 are great cameras. I have no experience with the D4 or other large professional bodies.

My experience is that the D500 takes a little more care when taking photos because of the crop factor. The autofocus is incredible and the fps really add to the abilities of this camera. I have been using the D500 with my Sigma 150-600 sport lens. When I first started using it with my D500 I was really disappointed. The images were very soft on the long end. I kept working with it and found that I had to take extra care to make sure I was perfectly still to get good shots.

When I first got this lens I used it with the D750 as I didn't have the D500. I loved the images and could easily crop to get close ups. When I received the D500 I did not know how well it would work but tried it anyway. After a few days of trying this set up I felt that I could crop the 750 more and get a better image than I could get with the 500.

Below is a photo of a coyote that I was following with the camera as he ran into the bottom of a canyon. The first photo is the full uncropped, unprocessed image. The second photo is a 100 percent crop of the coyote in the previous image with no other processing. Both images were taken in raw but converted to JPG. I was using single point autofocus and if I remember correctly tried to put the focus point right between the eyes. I was also using matrix metering. The photo was taken at ISO 1600 just before sunset and stopped down to f9. I don't think I could get this kind of distance and good crop with the 750. This was a shot in a short burst of 5 shots at max FPS and I had the lens propped up on a wooden fence post. The coyote was about 200 to 250 yards away.












Feb 06, 2017 at 10:08 PM
TimMunsey
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


I find with FX I need to take my longer, heavier glass, are you able to get close to your pray without cropping? Or are you happy to carry a heavier lens and tripod and heavier body?
The D500 with 300mm PF + 1.4TC is a wonderfully portable 630mm setup, as for light better off shooting when it's good anyway.

Tim



Feb 07, 2017 at 03:16 AM
Dutch937
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


TimMunsey wrote:
I find with FX I need to take my longer, heavier glass, are you able to get close to your pray without cropping? Or are you happy to carry a heavier lens and tripod and heavier body?
The D500 with 300mm PF + 1.4TC is a wonderfully portable 630mm setup, as for light better off shooting when it's good anyway.

Tim


Thx Tim, like I've said previously, you can never get close enough with birds. I could prob make due with FX, but the crop sensor would certainly help in that regard. I just want the option that will get me the best image quality (from my two options) and if it means more work in post but the end result is equal, then i'm ok with that too.



Feb 07, 2017 at 06:10 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


I wanted to add a few thoughts as recently I've made a decision after years of going back and forth and shooting both back to back that even for my reach limited birding (probably 75% of what I shoot) I am much happier with my full frame cameras compared to my crop cameras. My experience is mostly in Canon but I do own the D500 for its AF compared to my now sold 7D2.

I have settled on three Canon FF bodies (1DX, 1DX2, 5D4). I am keeping the D500 for now but I only use it in very specific circumstances....those being when I need 10FPS, have good light and want to travel or hike with a lighter kit. But I have found that I am usually only happy with my FF images and especially as I go ISO 800 and up the FF starts to claw back all the mathematical reach that the crop sensor is supposed to have. Once one is up at ISO 2500 and above I can crop a 20MP FF sensor to the same framing as what I want from the DX sensor and have a better image.

Everyone has their own priorities but for me I have gone for longer lenses and FX sensors instead of DX sensors and medium/lighter lenses. Of course the best situations are when you can use 600mm or less on an FX sensor and get 2/3 of the frame on your subject but that doesn't happen to me often unless I travel.

The D500 is the best crop sensor I've used other than the 5DSR (sort of a crop sensor if you do lots of cropping). I have good images out of it all the way up to 12800 ISO but again that is only in very specific circumstances and those good 12800 images were more in testing when I was arbitrarily upping the ISO to levels it didn't need to be for the actual EV of the scene. When you really need the 12800 ISO to keep 5.6 and 1/1600 that type of EV light doesn't hold at those ISOs. FX works in those scenarios.

If you are already seeing things you don't like in your D500 images compared to D750 then you are better served with a D4 IMHO. With prices dropping on those older flagships it is a great time to buy. I more follow Canon used prices but a 1DX at $2600 used is unbelievable to me. I saw a D4s sell at $2800 on here recently also. I'm sure the D4 is even better value. Get the D4



Feb 07, 2017 at 08:38 AM
Dutch937
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


arbitrage wrote:
I wanted to add a few thoughts as recently I've made a decision after years of going back and forth and shooting both back to back that even for my reach limited birding (probably 75% of what I shoot) I am much happier with my full frame cameras compared to my crop cameras. My experience is mostly in Canon but I do own the D500 for its AF compared to my now sold 7D2.

I have settled on three Canon FF bodies (1DX, 1DX2, 5D4). I am keeping the D500 for now but I only use it in very specific circumstances....those
...Show more

What your describe is exactly how i've felt in the past. When i was using Canon, i tried the 7D mark 2 and i couldn't get used to it vs my 1dx. This is exactly what i am going through with Nikon. The only reason i am considering the D500 is because of all the amazing images i have seen with this camera body, but i guess i have to assume in most cases it is because they have been in better than average light conditions.

My mind is made up... I will get a good used D4 and that will give me what i lack in the D750 and save for a long prime like the 500 f4.

Thank you everyone for your comments and feedback!!



Feb 07, 2017 at 09:14 AM
sjms
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Dutch937 wrote:
Thanks Steve! I'm open minded about suggestions. What you say makes a lot of sense. I believe until I get a 500 f4, I will be cropping a lot if I continue to use FF.

The 3 or 4 times I used the D500, the light was crappy (gloomy and grey), so maybe that had something to do with the IQ...but everyone raves about the low light capabilities?? Those same days I compared directly with the 750 and the images seemed cleaner and more contrast. After post, I could get them looking very similar as long as you weren't
...Show more

2 extremes
the first posted image has been stomped down to: 127KB
the second posted image has been stomped down to: 141KB

the black lines going across the image I thought were sensor/processing issue until I went back the next day and observed that they were actual wires.

I shoot for work and previously owned the D4 and D4s. did like the D4s a bit better. but I really wasn't working it to its capabilities as of late. so I dropped down to the D500 for now. I find it to be a real handy camera to use within limits which are lower. I don't really know your needs and personal limits.












Feb 07, 2017 at 09:28 AM
Dutch937
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


sjms wrote:
2 extremes
the first posted image has been stomped down to: 127KB
the second posted image has been stomped down to: 141KB

the black lines going across the image I thought were sensor/processing issue until I went back the next day and observed that they were actual wires.



These images look good considering the high ISO. But, when I tested the D500 shooting wildlife/birds, anything over 1600ISO when pixel peeping looked average at best vs the D750. That's been my concern, not like the type of mages above.



Feb 07, 2017 at 09:46 AM
sjms
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


i'm really not going to go there. I forgot the physics changes


Feb 07, 2017 at 10:01 AM
coastalconn
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Should i pick up a used D4 or a used D500?? Help please...


Did you fine tune your lens with the D500? Did you shoot at a higher shutter speed? A 21MP DX camera is more demanding than a 24MP FX camera. I own both the D500 and D4. When I'm not focal length limited I prefer the IQ of the D4, however I find the AF much better in the D500. I shoot a lot of close fast raptor scenes and in the month I've had the D4 I do not find it up to task vs the D500.


Feb 07, 2017 at 10:57 AM
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