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Archive 2017 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers

  
 
Andre Labonte
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


http://nikonrumors.com/2017/02/02/sigma-85mm-f1-4-art-lens-new-benchmark-according-to-dxomark-better-scores-than-the-zeiss-ottus.aspx/




Feb 03, 2017 at 01:34 PM
molson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Andre Labonte wrote:
http://nikonrumors.com/2017/02/02/sigma-85mm-f1-4-art-lens-new-benchmark-according-to-dxomark-better-scores-than-the-zeiss-ottus.aspx/



According to DxO, the Zeiss Milvus 85mm f1.4 also outperforms the Otus, and matches the Sigma... so take it all with a grain of salt.



Feb 03, 2017 at 01:38 PM
Two23
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


molson wrote:
According to DxO, the Zeiss Milvus 85mm f1.4 also outperforms the Otus, and matches the Sigma... so take it all with a grain of salt.



Doesn't match the Sigma price!


Kent in SD



Feb 03, 2017 at 05:17 PM
Two23
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


I have the Nikon 85mm f1.8G, which I like because it's compact & lightweight. Image quality is good. However, I don't use it much at all. I also have the Nikon 105mm VR Micro, which is a similar focal length. I do use it some, mostly as a macro lens. I've been thinking of selling the 85mm f1.8g because I just don't use it enough to justify keeping it, and just carrying the 105mm in my four lens bag. However, this new Sigma 85mm has stunning numbers, making it hard to resist. My dilemma is I don't really use 85mm focal length, but do use macro some (especially on trips to wilderness areas.) I need to decide if I want the stunning sharpness of the Sigma 85mm, or the versatility of the Nikon 105mm. The more I ponder it, the more I'm coming around to thinking that with the 105mm I have both a short tele for portraits, AND a useful macro lens. I like that sort of two in one capability as it gives me more options with less weight in the field. Have to think about this some more.


Kent in SD

Edited on Feb 03, 2017 at 06:20 PM · View previous versions



Feb 03, 2017 at 05:44 PM
molson
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Two23 wrote:
Doesn't match the Sigma price!




Or size and weight...



Feb 03, 2017 at 05:53 PM
Arka
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Two23 wrote:
Doesn't match the Sigma price!

Kent in SD


I'll bet the AF on the Sigma is better than on the Otus..



Feb 03, 2017 at 06:06 PM
kozmo30
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Arka wrote:
I'll bet the AF on the Sigma is better than on the Otus..


Good one!



Feb 03, 2017 at 06:17 PM
nuclearjock
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Shucks, I was just gonna pull the beer trigger on the Otus 85 . Although DXO is kinda full of it IMO.


Feb 03, 2017 at 09:37 PM
spooky action
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


That Sigma is humongous (Otus is supposed to be large too)! Google a picture of it side by side with the 85 1.4g. It's twice the size!


Feb 03, 2017 at 10:13 PM
sjms
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


nuclearjock wrote:
Shucks, I was just gonna pull the beer trigger on the Otus 85 . Although DXO is kinda full of it IMO.


yeah like most of us here except for the fact they have a methodology that is pretty repeatable.



Feb 03, 2017 at 10:21 PM
Blakehfreeman
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


I don't understand why this lens needs to be as large as it is. No way in heck I'd go for colors I like less, different drawing style and perhaps an increase of resolution of 10%, in order to double in size.

Blake



Feb 03, 2017 at 10:58 PM
Two23
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Blakehfreeman wrote:
I don't understand why this lens needs to be as large as it is. No way in heck I'd go for colors I like less, different drawing style and perhaps an increase of resolution of 10%, in order to double in size.

Blake



This was explained on Roger Ciacala's blog. Sigma used fewer exotic glass elements than OTUS, and to still get that kind of performance they needed more and larger pieces of glass.

And for SJM--Ciacala reviewed the lens and found it pretty much tied the Zeiss, but at one third the price. His testing showed OTUS a bit sharper in the center, the Sigma sharper everywhere else. All in all, very very close.


Kent in SD



Feb 03, 2017 at 11:11 PM
TastyNumNums
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Two23 wrote:
This was explained on Roger Ciacala's blog. Sigma used fewer exotic glass elements than OTUS, and to still get that kind of performance they needed more and larger pieces of glass.

And for SJM--Ciacala reviewed the lens and found it pretty much tied the Zeiss, but at one third the price. His testing showed OTUS a bit sharper in the center, the Sigma sharper everywhere else. All in all, very very close.

Kent in SD


"Sharper everywhere else" - no, the MTF curve (specific to a flat plane at infinity) is higher in the outer part of the frame. This does not take into account field curvature. Field curvature is important.

The problem with the measurebators is they generally don't understand what the measurements actually mean. You need to take into account what was actually measured and how it relates to real world performance - in this case, all you can tell is that the Sigma is less sharp than the Otus in the centre, but probably performs better when shooting distant landscapes wide open (usually only important for astro). Standard MTF charts tell you almost nothing about sharpness outside the centre against non-flat subjects closer than infinity.



Feb 04, 2017 at 06:06 AM
RCicala
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


TastyNumNums wrote:
"Sharper everywhere else" - no, the MTF curve (specific to a flat plane at infinity) is higher in the outer part of the frame. This does not take into account field curvature. Field curvature is important.

The problem with the measurebators is they generally don't understand what the measurements actually mean. You need to take into account what was actually measured and how it relates to real world performance - in this case, all you can tell is that the Sigma is less sharp than the Otus in the centre, but probably performs better when shooting distant landscapes wide open (usually
...Show more

You're correct about the field curvature. The Otus is at f/5.6 the Sigma at f/1.4 - thats the reason for the difference in thickness of the fields. The shape of the curvature doesn't change with aperture.
















Feb 04, 2017 at 07:23 AM
TastyNumNums
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


RCicala wrote:
You're correct about the field curvature. The Otus is at f/5.6 the Sigma at f/1.4 - thats the reason for the difference in thickness of the fields. The shape of the curvature doesn't change with aperture.


Wow, really interesting results there, I dread to think how long it must have taken to get those measurements. As I suspected, they go along way towards showing why the Sigma measures better at the edges, I don't think I've ever seen such a flat focus field. Obviously they went to great lengths to do that, I wonder what they had to sacrifice to achieve it (other than optics, probably many goats). I also can't help but ask what the results for these lenses look like at closer focusing distances (I'm guessing these were at infinity), but I'm sure you wouldn't want to use up all that bench time again!



Feb 04, 2017 at 08:26 AM
RCicala
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


TastyNumNums wrote:
Wow, really interesting results there, I dread to think how long it must have taken to get those measurements. As I suspected, they go along way towards showing why the Sigma measures better at the edges, I don't think I've ever seen such a flat focus field. Obviously they went to great lengths to do that, I wonder what they had to sacrifice to achieve it (other than optics, probably many goats). I also can't help but ask what the results for these lenses look like at closer focusing distances (I'm guessing these were at infinity), but I'm sure you
...Show more

It takes a little under an hour per lens but it's automated so at least I can go have coffee while it runs :-) You might be interested that after the run, MATLAB actually groans for about 15 seconds to import the data, then another 20 or so to calculate the graphs.

For prime lenses in general it doesn't change much from infinity to fairly close focusing distances, but near minimum focusing distance it can change. Macro lenses definitely change at macro distances.



Feb 04, 2017 at 09:01 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Two23 wrote:
I have the Nikon 85mm f1.8G, which I like because it's compact & lightweight. Image quality is good. However, I don't use it much at all. I also have the Nikon 105mm VR Micro, which is a similar focal length. I do use it some, mostly as a macro lens. I've been thinking of selling the 85mm f1.8g because I just don't use it enough to justify keeping it, and just carrying the 105mm in my four lens bag. However, this new Sigma 85mm has stunning numbers, making it hard to resist. My dilemma is I don't really use 85mm
...Show more


*************************

Kent,

I too have a nice 85 f/1.8G and while I love its performance, price and small size, it's just not a focal length I used that much on DX. Inside a 50mm serves my purposes better and outside the 70-200 or 300mm end up on the camera.

Cheers,
Andre




Feb 04, 2017 at 11:31 PM
droaingsong
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


RCicala wrote:
You're correct about the field curvature. The Otus is at f/5.6 the Sigma at f/1.4 - thats the reason for the difference in thickness of the fields. The shape of the curvature doesn't change with aperture.



Amazing results. Very impressive.



Feb 05, 2017 at 09:18 AM
paulski66
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Andre Labonte wrote:
http://nikonrumors.com/2017/02/02/sigma-85mm-f1-4-art-lens-new-benchmark-according-to-dxomark-better-scores-than-the-zeiss-ottus.aspx/



I'm confused. Aren't Zeiss worshippers the ultimate measurabators?



Feb 05, 2017 at 03:33 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · If this does not pit the Measurbators against the Zeiss Worshipers


Two23 wrote:
This was explained on Roger Ciacala's blog. Sigma used fewer exotic glass elements than OTUS, and to still get that kind of performance they needed more and larger pieces of glass.


Well then I guess that just flips the question around to with the Otus is so big then (only a smidge smaller than the Sigma and heavier).




Feb 05, 2017 at 05:57 PM
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