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FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve ...
  
 
Brandon Dube
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


ecarlino wrote:
here is the article i was thinking of when i wrote that earlier post:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/10/sony-e-mount-lens-sharpness-bench-tests/

it's not so much that "Sony" lens have something particular about them that requires testing @ infinity, (b/c the bench normally tests @ infinity) - there was some 'tricks' you guys had to perform to get Sony lenses to focus at infinity while not mounted on a camera. sorry i wasn't entirely clear/accurate.


Focusing them isn't hard. It's getting them to stay focused. The linear motors do not hold the focusing group without power, so if you cannot connect them to a camera, you cannot test them. We have made a modified mount for the MTF bench that passes the electrical connections to a camera that sits on the table next to the camera. As far as the lens is concerned, it is on the camera. We do not have to do this for Canon or Nikon, and it is possible (though very unlikely) that this method is unreliable vs the lens genuinely being on the camera.



Jan 25, 2017 at 05:12 PM
Brandon Dube
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


Matt Grum wrote:
In that case we're down to two possible explanations, copy variability (i.e. DXO received a lens at the very peak of the bell curve) or an error (either systematic or a one-off bobo) in testing.



There are many more than two.

* focusing distance
* color of light used
* sample variation
* operator error
* difference in performance at the spatial frequency "accutance" is computed at, if it is a rebadged MTF-50 then it is many spatial frequencies.
* algorithmic error (the pMP is a black box)

There are most likely others.



Jan 25, 2017 at 05:16 PM
Mark K
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested



Having three 70-200 f2.8..9n F, A and EF moub5.. I wonder if I need another
Jonathan F wrote:
Use the Nikon 70-200mm VR II on a Commlite Nikon to Sony AF adapter and I'll bet we'll see a higher score if used on an A7R II.




Jan 25, 2017 at 07:11 PM
chez
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


Jonathan F wrote:
I've tried the 70-200mm 2.8 VR I on my A7 II using the same adapter and it works well enough, but I wouldn't use it for any fast action. Perfectly useable for portrait work and other static objects.

Saying that, in terms of pure metrics it would be interested to see how the Nikon glass would rate on the A7R II sensor.


Personally, I don't have any interest in metrics...they don't produce images. I follow some of these test sites, but for a lens like this, I rent and decide for myself on the camera I would be using under the conditions I shoot.



Jan 25, 2017 at 07:17 PM
ecarlino
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


Brandon Dube wrote:
Focusing them isn't hard. It's getting them to stay focused.


yes, that's what i meant / sort of the same thing - in any case, i was trying clarify that the LR tests of Sony lenses are done @ infinty b/c that's how the bench works, not b/c of anything specific to Sony.



Jan 25, 2017 at 07:43 PM
GabrielPhoto
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


chez wrote:
Personally, I don't have any interest in metrics...they don't produce images. I follow some of these test sites, but for a lens like this, I rent and decide for myself on the camera I would be using under the conditions I shoot.


But metrics can give you a good idea if a lens is a good fit or not. For example my previous Zeiss 35mm 1.4. On a session outdoors, for the type of environmental portrait I wanted, I got disappointed at not been able to get a nice sharp subject when away from the center at 1.4
Checking the DXO sharpness field map clearly shows this as well.
So based on that I looked the field map for the Canon 35mm 1.4 L ii and it was sharp across the frame so I rented it and real life confirmed the measurements. I sold the Zeiss after that as for my style, the Canon was a better fit.
Of course, measurements do not show how bokeh is rendered and so on but I do not feel they are totally useless, specially that field maps. Dont care much for the final scores etc.



Jan 25, 2017 at 11:09 PM
TheEmrys
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


If the Sharpness maps gave focal distances crossed with their apertures, I would find it useful. As it is, the data is useless to me. Is it MFD? Infinity? In the exactly middle of the two? An average over several focal distances? Nobody knows. Useless.

It isn't like they actually test every combo they claim to anyway...

At least with Imatest, I know where the problems are.



Jan 25, 2017 at 11:24 PM
chez
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


shaolin95 wrote:
But metrics can give you a good idea if a lens is a good fit or not. For example my previous Zeiss 35mm 1.4. On a session outdoors, for the type of environmental portrait I wanted, I got disappointed at not been able to get a nice sharp subject when away from the center at 1.4
Checking the DXO sharpness field map clearly shows this as well.
So based on that I looked the field map for the Canon 35mm 1.4 L ii and it was sharp across the frame so I rented it and real life confirmed the measurements. I sold
...Show more

That's why I rent most lenses before I purchase to see how they perform for the way I shoot. Looking at the 70-200 at infinity just does me no good as I would not use that lens very often if at all at those settings.



Jan 25, 2017 at 11:30 PM
GabrielPhoto
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


TheEmrys wrote:
If the Sharpness maps gave focal distances crossed with their apertures, I would find it useful. As it is, the data is useless to me. Is it MFD? Infinity? In the exactly middle of the two? An average over several focal distances? Nobody knows. Useless.

It isn't like they actually test every combo they claim to anyway...

At least with Imatest, I know where the problems are.


Useless to you, not to me. To each its own...so far for my needs, the measurements translate into my own experiences...



Jan 26, 2017 at 04:49 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


Agree with Phillip, no sharpness black boxes for me.

Their conclusion begins with this: 'The advent of super high-resolution camera sensors demands *new lenses* with phenomenal resolving power to maximize their potential.'

Oh..OK.



Jan 26, 2017 at 05:34 AM
 

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TheEmrys
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


You must be incredibly lucky in finding lenses that dxo has tested that correspond with the focal distances you use.

shaolin95 wrote:
Useless to you, not to me. To each its own...so far for my needs, the measurements translate into my own experiences...




Jan 26, 2017 at 02:07 PM
GabrielPhoto
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


TheEmrys wrote:
You must be incredibly lucky in finding lenses that dxo has tested that correspond with the focal distances you use.


Or you must be incredibly unlucky to find bad lenses....




Jan 27, 2017 at 04:22 PM
bjornthun
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


Brandon Dube wrote:
Focusing them isn't hard. It's getting them to stay focused. The linear motors do not hold the focusing group without power, so if you cannot connect them to a camera, you cannot test them. We have made a modified mount for the MTF bench that passes the electrical connections to a camera that sits on the table next to the camera. As far as the lens is concerned, it is on the camera. We do not have to do this for Canon or Nikon, and it is possible (though very unlikely) that this method is unreliable vs the lens
...Show more

How do you tell that the lens is set to infinity?



Jan 27, 2017 at 06:09 PM
TheEmrys
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


shaolin95 wrote:
Or you must be incredibly unlucky to find bad lenses....



Hard part is that it overlooks lenses that are spectacular outside of whatever distance DXO tests (which we don't know). I would never, ever recommend the Minolta (and Sony) 35/1.4 G to anyone doing landscapes. But for people photography? Amazing. Incredible... but only from 4-8 feet. It excels at neither its MFD or Infinity. But if DXO measures at 5', and you are a landscape shooter? It will be a terrible choice, done with the best of intentions.

Focal distance of lens tests really matter.



Jan 27, 2017 at 07:58 PM
GabrielPhoto
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


TheEmrys wrote:
Hard part is that it overlooks lenses that are spectacular outside of whatever distance DXO tests (which we don't know). I would never, ever recommend the Minolta (and Sony) 35/1.4 G to anyone doing landscapes. But for people photography? Amazing. Incredible... but only from 4-8 feet. It excels at neither its MFD or Infinity. But if DXO measures at 5', and you are a landscape shooter? It will be a terrible choice, done with the best of intentions.

Focal distance of lens tests really matter.


Good then DXO does not work for you but it works for me. Can we move on now?



Jan 27, 2017 at 08:56 PM
DavidBM
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


TheEmrys wrote:
Hard part is that it overlooks lenses that are spectacular outside of whatever distance DXO tests (which we don't know). I would never, ever recommend the Minolta (and Sony) 35/1.4 G to anyone doing landscapes. But for people photography? Amazing. Incredible... but only from 4-8 feet. It excels at neither its MFD or Infinity. But if DXO measures at 5', and you are a landscape shooter? It will be a terrible choice, done with the best of intentions.

Focal distance of lens tests really matter.


Of course this is not a DXO thing; every lab test is a test at some distance or other, determined by the size of the chart they have and the AOV of the lens (for chart based tests) or in the case of bench tests generally infinity.

And we are rarely told exactly what that distance is. It's a bit of a problem, but while there are lenses that vary a lot between mid distance and infinity that is by no means the norm (of course MFD or nearby is often very different, as is macro distance and infinity)



Jan 27, 2017 at 09:02 PM
chez
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


TheEmrys wrote:
Hard part is that it overlooks lenses that are spectacular outside of whatever distance DXO tests (which we don't know). I would never, ever recommend the Minolta (and Sony) 35/1.4 G to anyone doing landscapes. But for people photography? Amazing. Incredible... but only from 4-8 feet. It excels at neither its MFD or Infinity. But if DXO measures at 5', and you are a landscape shooter? It will be a terrible choice, done with the best of intentions.

Focal distance of lens tests really matter.


So who's tests do you trust...obviously not Lens Rental for the 35 1.4.

Best test is putting the lens on your camera and shooting the way you want to shoot with the lens...then there is no one to put blame onto. Or just wait until Fred or Guy get around to fully testing the lens.



Jan 27, 2017 at 09:04 PM
GMPhotography
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


One thing that really bugs me about DXO is it does not take in account any processing. It's so under valued itreally is.


Jan 27, 2017 at 09:36 PM
TheEmrys
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


It isn't about trusting tests so much as just knowing how the testing works. For Lensrentals test, I absolutely know what the SHARPNESS tests tell me, but I find their sample variations to be just as important.

IMAtest has its own issues, but their process is nearly entirely transparent.

I also do a whole lot of looking at example images at nearly 1:1.

But to be perfectly honest, sharpness is about the 4th I look at. I much typically look at color cast, tonal transitions, bokeh, and subject isolation (micro-contrast) all are very important to me. For me, sharpness figures in to the equation. For landscape lenses, it is highly important. For my own paid portrait work, I like shap images, but not high micro-contrast. It is my only gripe with the Sony CZ135/1.8. It is often too sharp to be flattering on folks with imperfect skin. My Minolta 100/2, which was incredibly sharp at f/2.2, but it had lower micro-contrast, so for imperfect skin, it was very forgiving.



Jan 27, 2017 at 10:02 PM
Brandon Dube
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · FE 70-200/2.8 GM: Sharpest and best low-light zoom we’ve tested


bjornthun wrote:
How do you tell that the lens is set to infinity?


We know the backfocus the lens should have for an object at infinity and look for the image there. We have a small tolerance for register error with the lens.



Jan 28, 2017 at 05:02 AM
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