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RustyBug
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Tara ...


Okay, well maybe not, but my better half says they look kinda pre-historic.

To me, the underwing pattern reminds me of skeleton bones.



Kent Southers 2017

  Canon EOS 80D    EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM lens    182mm    f/9.0    1/1600s    320 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jan 12, 2017 at 02:07 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Tara ...


Nice shot and you were close enough for 182MM. One problem with underside shots is it's almost always in the shadow of the bird.


Jan 12, 2017 at 02:42 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Tara ...


ben egbert wrote:
Nice shot and you were close enough for 182MM. One problem with underside shots is it's almost always in the shadow of the bird.


Thanks Ben,

I didn't do anything with lifting the shadow side yet. Thought I'd see how it played "au natural" first.

Don't let the 182mm fool you into thinking it was that close. This was still a pretty good size crop. It just means I wasn't shooting very tight.



Jan 12, 2017 at 02:49 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Tara ...


That's the nice thing about lots of pixels, it allows lots of crop. And FF helps you avoid wing clipping which I did all the time on crop cameras. Big slow birds are good practice for BIF.

I never got a brown pelican, always the whites. But the brown in breeding colors are very nice.



Jan 12, 2017 at 02:53 AM
sbeme
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Tara ...


I am OK with the natural look. Or you might need a Better Beamer or just a bit of fill for the underside, vs lifting the shadows.
Fine capture, Kent.
Scott



Jan 12, 2017 at 02:57 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Tara ...


Thanks Scott,

+1 @ slow flyer = BIF training wheels.

Just to be sure, I was still pretty wobbly ... even with the wheels stil on.



Jan 12, 2017 at 03:13 AM
lighthound
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Tara ...


Ok, I'm impressed. I can't believe you didn't bump your shadows on this. Every time I have attempted a shot like this I either blow the highlights or the underside is nearly solid black.

What metering mode did you use?

And I'm all about those training wheels! At my rate I should be able to take them off in another decade or so.

Nice shot Kent!

Dave



Jan 12, 2017 at 03:27 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Tara ...


Metering mode = Sunny 16 (i.e. no meter)

To make the math a touch easier, I'll use ASA (ISO) 400.

Sunny 16 states:

Clear sunny sky = EV 15

ISO 100
SS 1/100
f/16

Moving +2 EV (stops) of ISO to 400,
then means moving the SS -2 EV (stops) to 1/400
and we are still "even / steven" @ f/16

Moving to ISO 400 (+2 EV)
SS 1/1600 (-4 EV)
f/8 (+2 EV)

Still "even / steven" @ EV 15 incident light illuminating your subject.

My exif is off just a touch from that, but "horseshoes & hand grenades", fairly close to Sunny 16 rule of thumb.

As long as the sunny side is your key light, then you're luminance remains consistent and you're camera's reflective meter (shooting manual) can't get fooled, since you aren't using it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value

Skip the fuzzy math portions ... see the table at the bottom for EV values @ different light conditions.



"Moorise Over Hernanadez" is of critical acclaim for Ansel Adams.

Part of the acclaim was that Adams saw the scene while driving, pulled over, jumped out and got the shot WITHOUT using his metering device. I met his son a few years back (who was with him at the time of the shot) as he told the story during an exhibit. Of course, I immediately knew that Adams just knew his EV values (and with the latitude of B&W film) and the Zone system.

Sadly, too many folks today don't even know what EV stands for, nor incident light, nor Zone, nor Sunny 16 (might need a bit of revision to Sunny 13 - 18 @ various camera sensor ISO actual sensitivity dependent).

That's not to say I don't ever use my camera's meter, nor an incident light meter, nor a reflective, nor spot meter ... but, when you understand the amount of energy your light source is illuminating your subject with, you don't really need to meter your subject, cause you already know the exposure for your light.



Edited on Jan 12, 2017 at 04:42 AM · View previous versions



Jan 12, 2017 at 04:31 AM
beavens
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Tara ...


Interesting perspective! Nicely exposure considering the normal challenges.

Couldn't resist a basic conversion, especially because "bone" to me conjures mono thoughts.

Jeff







Jan 12, 2017 at 04:33 AM
Familiarity
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Tara ...


Excellent picture, Kent.

And a great explanation of Sunny 16--and importantly, how to use adjust for different shutter speeds, etc.

Off-topic sort of: The "bones". Mother Nature rarely does anything unless it's for a purpose. I'm curious why the pattern of the underside of the wing looks so much like bones.



Jan 12, 2017 at 10:27 AM
 

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RustyBug
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Tara ...


Thanks,

Agreed @ the rationale of the "bones" = ... or maybe "skinny wings" as the brighter area is set against the darker area as a means to make the wingspan appear smaller is better illustrated in Jeff's mono (as another animal might view it). Yet again, the "Why" part remains elusive.



Jan 12, 2017 at 12:13 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Tara ...


Continued / related comment on Sunny 16.

The primary three components of course are:

ISO
SS
Aperture

Going back to Dave's other thread where the subject of aperture was discussed about diffraction vs. dof gains after f/11 ...

F/8 gives latitude of two stops (from Sunny 16) to play with in either ISO and/or SS.
I realize that Dave's twilight shot was a much lower EV value, but the trade-off relationships @ gain / sacrifice remain. Imo, there is rarely a lot to be gained going beyond f/11 (macro / focus stacking / hyper-focal use vs. general).

For some glass, you need to open up a stop (say 5.6 + TC = f/8 ... get off WO 5.6 a touch @ f/8 + TC = f/11, etc.)

Here, I'm @ f/9 to try and garner some DOF latitude for missing / nailing focus and physical depth of subject matter. My "caps" are f/11 for aperture, ISO 400 and let SS fall where it may while staying under those two caps. If it turns out that my SS won't support the shot (for whatever reason), then I consider going past my "caps".

In this instance, I'm @ f/9 & ISO 320 ... allowing me a 1/1600 (i.e. supportive) SS. It should be noted that I would have also had the 1.4X TC mounted, so my base WO aperture was f/8 (when racked out), so the choice to shoot at f/9 was to be "just off" WO at the long end and still support a SS (1/1600) @ >2X my max FL (560) for dealing with both panning and moving subject. Having dialed those numbers into my approach, relying on a meter would have only risked mucking up some aspect of those criteria.

Again, not to suggest I don't use camera metering ... just that when your lighting is consistent, you can lock down an EV manually (chimp first if needed to study histo = old school @ Polaroid first), so your meter doesn't get fooled by bright or dark areas of your subject / scene.

Hopefully, that makes a bit of sense.



Jan 12, 2017 at 12:36 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Tara ...


^^^^

So what you're really saying is that YOU thought though what you were doing and nailed your shot.

Hmmm... I'll have to try this concept one of these days.

Good stuff as always Kent.

Actually, I think I need to apply this logic much more than I do for some of my lowlight furry critter shots. I rely on my camera metering too much (AV mode) and end up in the stratosphere with my ISO. This is going to be one of my goals this year to force myself to use manual much more than I do.



Jan 12, 2017 at 03:28 PM
Shasoc
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Tara ...


The Sunny f/16 Rule is a bit more complex and needs to be put in the right context.
One thing that needs to be said is that this rule works only for front-lit, average toned (Mid Grey) subjects. That means that doesn't work for front-lit Dark or Light subjects because what matters is the amount of light that the subject reflects (that is what the camera is measuring) and, for the same incident light, a white subject reflects lot more light than a black one, so you need two different camera settings for a white subject and a dark subject no matter what the Sunny f/16 Rule says. In other words the Rule doesn't apply any more. This is why it is hard to shoot a black and white subject in a sunny day.
The Rule doesn't apply for Side-lit average toned subjects (Open up 1 stop). For Back-lit average toned subjects you need to open up 2 stops.
Don't think Sunny f/16 Rule is the photogs panacea. It has many variables and should be applied in specific lighting situations and with average toned subjects. For different situations you need to introduce some compensations.
Having said so, when you shoot IF birds, or wild life in general, you sure don't have the time to think about the Sunny f/16 Rule to see what camera setting to use, so you just need to gain experience and the camera settings will come to you.
One last thing. If you really want to apply the Sunny f/16 Rule here is a shortcut: it is called "Fast f/5.6".
Use f/5.6 and add one zero to the ISO to get the SS value.
So with f/5.6 at ISO 100 your SS would be 1/1000. The same value you would get using the Sunny f/16 Rule, but a lot faster to get there
Socrate



Jan 13, 2017 at 03:18 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Tara ...


Sorry to say, but the whole "Mid Grey" requirement is incorrect. It is true that a reflective meter reading of a middle grey will yield a Sunny 16 value, while a dark or light won't.

The assertion that the Sunny 16 is wrong because of the reflective reading is backwards. The reflective reading is what is wrong, as the reflective metering is predicated upon the assumption that the subject has a mid grey tonal value that you are metering (hence gray cards).

A reflective meter reading of three different subjects (one black, one white, one gray) of solid tonal value will return different readings ... however, if the image is exposed for those values ... all three images will be gray, despite the fact that they range from black to white (again, based on the meter's calibration to the assumption that a mid gray tonal value is the reflectance of the illumination present).

I tested this out many times on slide film years ago. I could hand you three slides that looked indiscernable as to which one was the black, white or gray subject. The reason why ... a reflective meter is predicated on the assumption that it is supposed to be middle gray (average scene) ... which btw, green grass makes a rough approximation ... and the corresponding exposure will indeed yield such a middle gray value.

I met an old Chinese man in Trinidad once who would meter off his arm, and then make the adjustment from that since his arm never changed color. He could use it just like one would a gray card, again understanding the difference between how a reflective meter works vs. the light falling incident upon a given subject. Granted change your orientation away from the key lighting of the sun, and Sunny 16 no longer applies.

Now, conversely ... take the same three subjects and place an incident meter in front of them to measure the amount of light falling on them, and no matter if you are metering in front of the black, gray or white subject, the incident light meter will yield the same reading. This is because, the subjects are being illuminated by the same amount of light.

As to the Sunny 16 rule warranting adjustment for backlit situations ... well then the subject is NOT being illuminated by the sun. Instead, it is being illuminated by the open sky, which does in fact require a different exposure. Sunny 16 = Sun + Sky. Backlit is without the sun. Take away the sunlight and you now only have the skylight (think incident light meter) which is of course, not as much light as with the sun.

For "Fast f/5.6" the math works out that f/5.6 is three stops open from f/16 (+3 EV). A corresponding offset of -3 EV would then be warranted. 2^3 = 8, so a factor of 8X your SS would represent the three stop diff, i.e. 100, 200, 400, 800. In that regard, adding a "0" becomes 1,000 (10X), and the diff between 8X vs. 10X has a little wiggle room for a slightly less exposure, but is still in the ballpark.

Sunny 16 is not a panacea ... but knowing your EV values can allow you to assess the light that is falling upon your subject. Not every day is Sunny 16, but understanding the difference between incident light that is illuminating your subject (the gist of Sunny 16 in lieu of an incident meter) and metering how much is being reflected / absorbed by your subject can be key to knowing whether or not your reflective meter is risking to get fooled by things like strong backlighting or dominant tonal values (dark or light).

Studio's use incident meters for a reason ... they tell you how much light is falling onto your subject, no matter the tonal value of the subject. Heck, they'll even meter the light before the subject even comes into the room.

Reflectance of light is obviously part of how light gets from the source, then "bounces" off the subject to our lens. But, one doesn't need to compensate for the reflectance value of incident light, that is what generates the tonal (hue) variance to provide you with the tone / color that is then captured. You don't have to do it twice. Exposing for the incident light is sufficient. Exposing for the reflectance value ... and, yup you have to reverse compensate for the tonal value of what you are metering off of. Not so with incident light values.

Sunny 16 (and other EV values) just gives you the ability to carry around a mental incident light meter.







Jan 13, 2017 at 04:57 AM
Shasoc
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Tara ...


RustyBug wrote:
Sorry to say, but the whole "Mid Grey" requirement is incorrect. It is true that a reflective meter reading of a middle grey will yield a Sunny 16 value, while a dark or light won't.

The assertion that the Sunny 16 is wrong because of the reflective reading is backwards. The reflective reading is what is wrong, as the reflective metering is predicated upon the assumption that the subject has a mid grey tonal value that you are metering (hence gray cards).

A reflective meter reading of three different subjects (one black, one white, one gray) of solid tonal value will return
...Show more



I believe you missed the point.






Jan 13, 2017 at 05:12 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Tara ...


You mean the one that says you still gotta think about what is actually happening between your light and your subject in dynamic scenarios. Yup, you still need to keep your noodle in play.

That holds true no matter which approach you choose to use.



Jan 13, 2017 at 05:16 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Tara ...


Another way to do birds is to get your metering set for the light and angle you are shooting.

A good image requires that the light source is at your back and the subject will be getting the same light. This requires a knowledge of the place and the subjects habits. Shooting grab shots seldom leads to a prize winning image.

I learned the best time of day for various habitat. For example full sunrise light on a yellow headed black bird blows yellows. A bit of cloud cover helps.

You need enough light from a good direction to get contrast and hence feather detail, but not too much to blow the light colors while holding detail in the blacks.

I always shot manual metering and worked out my metering beforehand.



Jan 13, 2017 at 03:03 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Tara ...


You guys make my head hurt. But in a good way.

I just spent the last 30 minutes or so looking at the EXIF of a few of my similar shots trying to learn a little from my own images based on what is being discussed here.

Looking at my recently posted Egret shots, I noticed my EXIF is nearly identical to Kent's here and right down to the same lens and almost the same bodies (70D vs 80D). The only differences I could see is I shot Manual, 1/2000, 5.6, ISO 320 "spot" metering, where Kent shot his @ Manual, 1/1600, 9.0, ISO 320 "partial" metering. And both appear to be in identical direct sun light with different angles relative to the sun.

If I plunk in these values into my handy dandy Exposure Calculator that I found http://endoflow.com/exposure/

Kent's values show that he was all over it EV15 (sunny 16) for the light conditions where as mine shows that my settings were EV14 suited for (weak, hazy sun).

Now the truth be told, I have no idea what all this really means but I'm trying like hell to understand it better.

Kent, with your permission I'd like to post a couple of bad shots I have that I think would add to this discussion that I think show what Socrate and Ben are talking about.
They are bad shots but I'm willing to take one for the team for the greater cause.

Dave



Jan 13, 2017 at 03:51 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Tara ...


ben egbert wrote:
Another way to do birds is to get your metering set for the light and angle you are shooting.

A good image requires that the light source is at your back and the subject will be getting the same light. This requires a knowledge of the place and the subjects habits. Shooting grab shots seldom leads to a prize winning image.

I learned the best time of day for various habitat. For example full sunrise light on a yellow headed black bird blows yellows. A bit of cloud cover helps.

You need enough light from a good direction to get
...Show more

+1

Exactly the point of Sunny 16, etc.



Jan 13, 2017 at 04:19 PM
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