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Archive 2016 · 5d4 detailed review

  
 
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 5d4 detailed review


rabbitmountain wrote:
Hi Phil, thank you for an informative review, not biased towards "wow the greatest camera you must buy it" but objective. Well done. I like the first image of the couple outside.

I put up a question in another topic that hasn't gained much discussion yet so I ask you here: you say you use ISO 12800 and it's usable. It also is usable (barely) on my 5DsR, until I fail to expose correctly, which happens sometimes on theatre shoots. Pushing 12800 5DsR mages make them fall apart very quickly. I am wondering how the 5D4 does, since it has improved
...Show more

Take a look at https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5d-mark-iv/11
it shows 5div being about a stop better for pushing than 5dsr.

I suggest you try shooting at iso6400 on 5dsr (~iso 4500 according to dxomark) and pushing instead of iso12,800, likely it will achieve the same results without blowing out bright spots because I suspect that iso12,800 is just iso6400 pushed in camera.

But between iso 6400 and iso 12,800 (which is really iso4000 to iso 8600 according to dxomark), I think the the 5div permits 1/3 stops and the 5dsr does not above iso 6400. And even more importantly, fps, faster focus, faster buffer clear, no pause in histogram - the 5div is a way way better wedding camera.



Dec 26, 2016 at 01:45 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 5d4 detailed review


Thanks scott, I'll look into that. But I was actually asking about pushing a 12800 shot on the 5D4. I know it's borderline but I get good results at ISO 12800 as long as they're well exposed.

Thanks again for your help



Dec 26, 2016 at 07:01 AM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 5d4 detailed review


rabbitmountain wrote:
Hi Phil, thank you for an informative review, not biased towards "wow the greatest camera you must buy it" but objective. Well done. I like the first image of the couple outside.

I put up a question in another topic that hasn't gained much discussion yet so I ask you here: you say you use ISO 12800 and it's usable. It also is usable (barely) on my 5DsR, until I fail to expose correctly, which happens sometimes on theatre shoots. Pushing 12800 5DsR mages make them fall apart very quickly. I am wondering how the 5D4 does, since it has improved
...Show more

No problem. I don't really do "that's the best thing ever", unless it really is

I'd say you can get away with half to one stop push on an ISO12800 file, if you're willing to add a bit more NR in and keep the blacks quite dark. More than that and I'd say they become messy.



Dec 26, 2016 at 10:02 AM
bipock
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 5d4 detailed review


I really like mine so far. Only issue I have noticed is that my handheld flash shots sometimes exhibit some camera shake, something I am not used to. Not all of them, but definately more than usual.


Dec 26, 2016 at 11:20 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 5d4 detailed review


PhilDrinkwater wrote:
No problem. I don't really do "that's the best thing ever", unless it really is

I'd say you can get away with half to one stop push on an ISO12800 file, if you're willing to add a bit more NR in and keep the blacks quite dark. More than that and I'd say they become messy.


Yes thanks that is what I mean. Blacks quickly turn to blue and whites turn to red on the 5DsR. One stop lift from 12800 sounds promising. Thanks for sharing that. I suppose it's time for a loaner to try it out.

Ralph



Dec 26, 2016 at 11:36 AM
Fujimoto
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 5d4 detailed review


What a fantastic and thorough review. Thanks for sharing, my good man.


Dec 26, 2016 at 12:09 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 5d4 detailed review


bipock wrote:
I really like mine so far. Only issue I have noticed is that my handheld flash shots sometimes exhibit some camera shake, something I am not used to. Not all of them, but definately more than usual.


Why just flash shots? Flash should stop the action? Is your shutter speed fast enough? Just a thought



Dec 26, 2016 at 12:13 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 5d4 detailed review


I just tested mRAW btw and it's terrible in terms of pushing shadows Article updated.


Dec 26, 2016 at 01:16 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 5d4 detailed review


rabbitmountain wrote:
Yes thanks that is what I mean. Blacks quickly turn to blue and whites turn to red on the 5DsR. One stop lift from 12800 sounds promising. Thanks for sharing that. I suppose it's time for a loaner to try it out.

Ralph


I've added a section in the article for this. Search for "12,800" and scroll down a bit to the piano playing.



Dec 26, 2016 at 01:16 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 5d4 detailed review


Thanks a lot Phil for serving your audience so fast, and especially considering it's Christmas Day . The piano crop looks amazing for a 12800 one stop push. The overall I,age is fairly bright to begin with and there are no deep shadows to begin with. My theatre images are different in that respect, more difficult for sure. I suppose borderline is also different for everyone. Ive delivered way more noisy images to clients, but Ive set a printing size limit for those which, of course, id rather not do.

Two other things I noticed, very minor points they are
1. you wrote that the high ISO noise performance is not as good as the 1Dx2, and similar to the 1Dx. Have you used the 1Dx2 extensively? I found no practical high ISO gain compared to the 1Dx, talking of pure noise levels. Pushing of shadows of course is another matter.
2. I always thought 3db is already doubling the sound level, which is why you would definitely should notice the difference in silent rooms. I thought the 5DsR was less stealthy than the 5D3, especially because it has a two phase shutter sound where the 5D3 has just one. Hearing the 5D4 is louder isn't good. But if you are fine at normal setting then it's all academic.



Dec 26, 2016 at 01:51 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 5d4 detailed review


rabbitmountain wrote:
Thanks a lot Phil for serving your audience so fast, and especially considering it's Christmas Day . The piano crop looks amazing for a 12800 one stop push. The overall I,age is fairly bright to begin with and there are no deep shadows to begin with. My theatre images are different in that respect, more difficult for sure. I suppose borderline is also different for everyone. Ive delivered way more noisy images to clients, but Ive set a printing size limit for those which, of course, id rather not do.

Two other things I noticed, very minor points they are
1. you
...Show more

Welcome!

1. I've not, but I've play around with the files on dpreview a fair amount, and looked at dxo. I'm probably only moderately confident in that view, so I might play it down a little.

2. I looked this up as I wasn't sure either. 10db is a doubling in apparent loudness. It seems the db scale isn't quite so clear as an light scale!



Dec 26, 2016 at 02:05 PM
arbitrage
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 5d4 detailed review


Scott Stoness wrote:
Take a look at https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5d-mark-iv/11
it shows 5div being about a stop better for pushing than 5dsr.

I suggest you try shooting at iso6400 on 5dsr (~iso 4500 according to dxomark) and pushing instead of iso12,800, likely it will achieve the same results without blowing out bright spots because I suspect that iso12,800 is just iso6400 pushed in camera.

But between iso 6400 and iso 12,800 (which is really iso4000 to iso 8600 according to dxomark), I think the the 5div permits 1/3 stops and the 5dsr does not above iso 6400. And even more importantly, fps, faster focus, faster buffer clear,
...Show more

5DSR at 12,800 is just slightly better than 6400 pushed on the 5DSR. Check Photons to Photos and the appropriate chart is the one called Photographic Dynamic Range Shadow Improvement vs ISO setting.

This also shows the 5D4 is not an ISO-less sensor at all...not even close. The D500, D72000 etc show as a flat line on that graph....that is an ISO-less sensor, the 5D4 is not....shoot at the proper ISO to get a better image. However there are a few areas where the 5D4 is ISO-less like between 1200 and 4000 so there are areas you can underexpose without penalty but study this graph for a better idea.







Dec 26, 2016 at 02:05 PM
NCAndy
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 5d4 detailed review


PhilDrinkwater wrote:
Welcome!

1. I've not, but I've play around with the files on dpreview a fair amount, and looked at dxo. I'm probably only moderately confident in that view, so I might play it down a little.

2. I looked this up as I wasn't sure either. 10db is a doubling in apparent loudness. It seems the db scale isn't quite so clear as an light scale!


I think in audio, a 3db increase requires a doubling of amplification power. A 10db increase is twice as loud in perceived volume.



Dec 26, 2016 at 03:05 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 5d4 detailed review


arbitrage wrote:
5DSR at 12,800 is just slightly better than 6400 pushed on the 5DSR. Check Photons to Photos and the appropriate chart is the one called Photographic Dynamic Range Shadow Improvement vs ISO setting.

This also shows the 5D4 is not an ISO-less sensor at all...not even close. The D500, D72000 etc show as a flat line on that graph....that is an ISO-less sensor, the 5D4 is not....shoot at the proper ISO to get a better image. However there are a few areas where the 5D4 is ISO-less like between 1200 and 4000 so there are areas you can underexpose without penalty
...Show more

Interesting read, thanks for sharing Geoff. Never was aware of this ISO less behaviour. If I understand correctly, with a 100% ISO less sensor, one can set it to any ISO value, underexpose by n stops, push n stops in post and get the same result compared to the same shot at the required ISO for accurate exposure. And the 5DsR loses up to two stops in the lower ISO range and up to one sixth of a stop (which doesnt mean much in practical shooting) in the upper ISO range. Apparently not much can go wrong keeping the ISO at 3200 and exposure steady even while light levels drop and come back up again. This opens up a new way of shooting in manual during my theatre work, without constantly changing the ISO. Basically as long as the image is between zero-2stops underexposed it's fine. Will certainly try it out when I have some time to test.

I suppose the graph above doesn't mean anything in absolute noise characteristics differences between those bodies.

Thanks!

Ralph



Dec 26, 2016 at 05:20 PM
Holger
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 5d4 detailed review


bipock wrote:
I really like mine so far. Only issue I have noticed is that my handheld flash shots sometimes exhibit some camera shake, something I am not used to. Not all of them, but definately more than usual.


This only happens, if flash doesn't provide the main light source, so usually if it is still not dark enough. If the flash is your main source you can get away with very low shutter speeds easily.



Dec 26, 2016 at 05:42 PM
Holger
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 5d4 detailed review


NCAndy wrote:
I think in audio, a 3db increase requires a doubling of amplification power. A 10db increase is twice as loud in perceived volume.


Not directly. It is frequency dependent, but 10db is often mentioned as a rule of thumb (for 1kHz).
Look for "sone", where doubling of perceived loudness is going with a doubling in the corresponding measure in sone, too. But it is used for pure tones and gets more complicated when broadband noise and superimposed tonal components are involved.



Dec 26, 2016 at 05:54 PM
bipock
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · 5d4 detailed review


PhilDrinkwater wrote:
Why just flash shots? Flash should stop the action? Is your shutter speed fast enough? Just a thought


I haven't figured out why just the flash stuff. My one wedding was spot on, sharp and detailed. Outside for family portraits and I'm getting a different story. It's definitely not enough that my clients notice, but it's there. Normally running 1/160, f4, ISO 100, enough to keep me a solid 2 stops under ambient and that's not quite working. I'm still toying with it and think it's something I may be doing (or not doing) but I haven't figured out what that is yet.



Dec 26, 2016 at 09:22 PM
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