Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

Archive 2016 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre

  
 
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Hello all,

I still only have my 5DsR that I traded for a 5D and a 5D2 and some cash. It plays well to outstandingly with all of my lenses and for most of my shooting. The exception is theatre. I do realise I used to shoot theatre with those two older bodies and I've always avoided ISO extremes. But I frequently use ISO 6400 and sometimes 12800 now with the 5DsR. The problem with shooting theatre is that lights can go from bright to dim in a second and a mixture of spots and Omni/wide made my technique resort to manual exposure only.
Correctly exposed 5DsR ISO 12800 images are borderline usable. But if lights go down suddenly and some shots get underexposed, pushing 6400 but especially 12800 the files fall apart rapidly. Colour shifts to magenta and contrast gets lost.
So I was wondering how the 5D4 would do in this regard. Having heard about the 5D4 DR improvements and having tested the 1Dx2 (great sensor but way too loud), there is room for hope that this could bring improvement over the 5DsR. The gain could be even bigger when taking pushing into account.

Of course I will ask for a cps loaner soon, but I would be very interested in hearing any of your findings.

Thanks
Ralph



Dec 24, 2016 at 06:06 PM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


I was doing some late afternoon birding last week and ISO's started at 6400 and went to 12800 (my max for auto ISO) using the 500 II + 2x III combo and the 5D4 did a very nice job IMO. I would never take the 5DsR past ISO 6400, which I think it can do nicely with if resampled down to say 20-24MP, but the 5D4 definitely looks to handle 12800 very well and despite the higher resolution than my 1DX ISO performance looks to be at least as good, probably even better when resampled to the same 18MP.

Here's a few examples. Not sure how well this will extrapolate to your evironment, but I think the 5D4 is very promising at high ISO. My results would have been better with higher shutter speeds and I might allow the 5D4 to go to 25600 in auto ISO next time, and at least try ISO 16000/20000.

















Dec 26, 2016 at 09:47 PM
johnctharp
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


A less costly stopgap (or solution, if it's just for theater), might be to pick up a 6D. Center focus will lock in the dark, so unless you're going for low-light tracking with off-center focus, it may be all that you need.


Dec 26, 2016 at 09:55 PM
Zenon Char
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


5D4 IS0 32,000

~original[/IMG]



Dec 27, 2016 at 12:27 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Thanks Whayne and John. The next body to pick up is not just for theatre, I am used to a dual body setup for about half of my shooting habits, such as theatre, events and the occasional wedding. So I'm looking for a two body combo that plays well for those and preferably one that complements the 5DsR nicely and maybe even surpasses it for some other subjects.

Aside from the mentioned subjects above I also do:
Portraits (a lot): 5DsR is fine
Sports: 5DsR is not the most ideal body
Landscape: 5DsR is great and I don't miss the limited DR
Architecture (not much): 5DsR is great

So for sports the 5D4 could be better thanks to better buffer and 7fps. For me it's not just theatre but total package.

Whayne your samples show great performance from the 5D4 at 12800. Yet most pixels were fed with ample light. My theatre images contain predominantly dark pixels. These dark pixels already show reduced contrast and colour shifts, even from ISO 3200 which I noticed yesterday evening upon closer examination. For the record these images have not been pushed, no shadows lifting or the like. I'll try to put up some samples later tonight.

Edited on Dec 27, 2016 at 01:08 PM · View previous versions



Dec 27, 2016 at 12:30 PM
Tapeman
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


I think the 5DsR and the 5DIV pair very well. The 5DIV may be a slightly better all around camera and certainly better at higher ISOs as well as having a better autofocus system. The 5DsR is also excellent and the cropping ability blows me away. (Helpful when reach limited.)
I think for sports the 5DIV is OK but if you shoot a really lot of it a 1DXX would be a better choice.
BTW, the controls on the 5DIV & 5DsR are almost identical, I have to look twice to see which camera I am using.



Dec 27, 2016 at 12:58 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


^ ^. Thanks, yes the control layout congruency is appealing. I've been shooting 5D/5D2 combo for years and years. I checked your profile and apart from the 500/4 your kit looks a lot like mine. Im also considering a 1D4 for the limited outdoor sports gigs that I do, but also for running dogs. They can be had for 1200 used nowadays.

This is the first time in eight years to change bodies. I'm not into getting the latest and greatest every three years. I'd rather buy something great now and keep it for another six-eight years.



Dec 27, 2016 at 01:14 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Here are some unedited full images and crops. All resized on export in LR CC to 2000 px. The crops are larger than 2000px so these are not 100% crops! They are here for the colour, not the pixels.

As you can see, the dark areas are off colour (reddish). It's not easy to get these images right. Generally blacks have to be darkened to make them acceptable.

1. ISO 12800
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-1.jpg

Crop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-2.jpg

2. ISO 12800
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-3.jpg

+1 stop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-4.jpg

Crop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-5.jpg

Crop +1 stop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-6.jpg

3. ISO 3200
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-7.jpg

+1 stop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-10.jpg

Crop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-8.jpg

Crop +1 stop:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-9.jpg



Dec 27, 2016 at 05:47 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


I can't offer you much help on the 5DIV questions, since I don't have one. However, I have used the 5DsR quite a bit for something similar to your subjects. In my case, I did a several year long project photographing professional classical musicians. Aside from the intensely colored lights that you encounter in your theatrical work, many of the challenges were similar — occasionally I was photographing in very dark backstage areas, stage lighting can go from moderate to intense quite quickly, sometimes different areas of the stage have differing amounts of light, and so on.

I began the project with a 5DII, and later on I acquired a 5DsR and a Fujifilm x-trans camera. For me the 5DsR worked quite well, as did both of the other cameras. I never had to go over 6400, and usually could photograph in the 1600-3200 range. Since I'm more concerned about blowing out hot spots than recovering shadows, I tended to err on the side of slight underexposure. There will be a bit of noise in the image, but with NR in post they can still be reproduced at quite large sizes. (Many of mine were used post-sized for marketing and similar purposes.)

If you were starting from scratch without either the 5DIV or the 5DsR, I would likely recommend the 5DIV, but I have to wonder how significant that difference will be at this point and whether it would be worth the added expense.

Good luck,

Dan

rabbitmountain wrote:
Hello all,

I still only have my 5DsR that I traded for a 5D and a 5D2 and some cash. It plays well to outstandingly with all of my lenses and for most of my shooting. The exception is theatre. I do realise I used to shoot theatre with those two older bodies and I've always avoided ISO extremes. But I frequently use ISO 6400 and sometimes 12800 now with the 5DsR. The problem with shooting theatre is that lights can go from bright to dim in a second and a mixture of spots and Omni/wide made my technique resort to
...Show more



Dec 27, 2016 at 06:37 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Hi Dan, thanks for your insights. As I don't need to print very large (most images will be shared digitally, 2000-2500 px max) I am not too concerned about noise. I am more concerned about colour. The darkest areas should be black, but they are a bit messy at ISO3200 and quite messy at 12800. It takes time in post and I'm still struggling for the best approach. lately I am wondering another path to counter underexposed images, being brightening up the artists, not the background, or creating a radial filter on the spot of interest to brighten things up, leaving the outer parts as is. Sometimes this doesn't look realistic enough so I need to go to PS but mostly it's fine and it looks like a stage light emphasizing the spot of interest. Nobody will ever know the original image was more evenly lighted. But still pushing ISO 3200 and 6400 5DsR images can be a challenge so while carefully selecting a second body the 5D4 is still on my list. I suppose getting that loaner will make things clear.

Thanks again,
Ralph



Dec 27, 2016 at 06:56 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Zenon thanks for your sample too. I was busy on the lower end of this topic so I only noticed your image upon rereading. This image has good blacks. I am wondering how much you've had to work on it.


Dec 27, 2016 at 06:59 PM
Zenon Char
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


There was a long thread at DPreview about how people are saying that LR looks washed out with the newer bodies. Some LR say preserves shadows and it is up to the user to correct in PP. I don't really know about that. DPP files are definitely darker.

I just added a new formula I found online to closer match DPP Camera Standard. LR is also set to Camera standard. I'm experimenting with this for a while and these the defaults when I opened that file. The only thing I did after was bring the highlights down a bit.

Basic

Contrast +15
Black -4
Clarity +12
Vibrance -9
Saturation +4

HSL/Color/B+W – Saturation

Yellow +15
Green -6



Dec 27, 2016 at 07:19 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


I also alway apply at least a mild s-curve that darkens the lower luminosities without further darkening blacks and which pushes up the near white tones a bit too.


Dec 27, 2016 at 07:31 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Thanks, I'll have a look at those.

Here is another sample of the same series. It is the worst and it's totally my own fault, but it shows the colour wash very well.

This image was punished three ways: ISO 12800, 1.5 stop underexposed and I had to crop. Here are original and edit. I used two radial filters (one for exposure +1.5 and one for blacks -15) and some WB tweaking. No additional NR. Note the red messy colour in the background.


4. ISO 12800
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-11.jpg

Edit:
http://www.yulaniss.nl/FM/161227-5DsR-ISO-noise/5DsR-ISO-1200px-12.jpg


Edited on Dec 27, 2016 at 07:35 PM · View previous versions



Dec 27, 2016 at 07:32 PM
Tapeman
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Unfortunately with low light situations you will often have less than perfect results with almost any camera.
If you are good yours will be slightly better than others.



Dec 27, 2016 at 07:32 PM
rabbitmountain
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


There were some people using their phones to take photos. Obviously the dSLR images are miles better. The client was very very happy. Imperfections like these bother me more than my clients. Gear improvements are incremental. I would not buy a new camera just for this type of shooting, but buying a new camera this type of shooting is something to consider.


Dec 27, 2016 at 07:49 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


The point about less-than-perfect images is true, at least if you are photographing the events without the luxury of being able to stage them during a non-performance session. :-)

Dan

http://gallery.gdanmitchell.com/gallery/var/resizes/HumanWorld/PerformingArts/Music/EverettWilliamBassSSV20130112.jpg

http://gallery.gdanmitchell.com/gallery/var/resizes/HumanWorld/PerformingArts/Music/ViolinistMusiciansWarmUpBackstage20140926.jpg



Dec 27, 2016 at 08:16 PM
dhphoto
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


We are so lucky. Usable 12,800 ISO. Seven stops from 100 ISO, incredible


Dec 28, 2016 at 01:45 AM
Zenon Char
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


Zenon Char wrote:
There was a long thread at DPreview about how people are saying that LR looks washed out with the newer bodies. Some LR say preserves shadows and it is up to the user to correct in PP. I don't really know about that. DPP files are definitely darker.

I just added a new formula I found online to closer match DPP Camera Standard. LR is also set to Camera standard. I'm experimenting with this for a while and these the defaults when I opened that file. The only thing I did after was bring the highlights down a bit.
...Show more

Quoting myself. I have been fooling around with this and and finding the first setting Contrast is very good at +5 as well. It seems sometimes the shadow get a bit dark and you have to use the shadow slider to get them back. If anyone tries this and toggle between +15 and +5 the overall contrast gain is still very good. I'm still experimenting.



Dec 28, 2016 at 10:06 AM
Bruce Sawle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5D4 vs 5DsR high ISO theatre


5D MK IV ISO 16000 under really poor lighting.




Dec 28, 2016 at 11:02 AM
1
       2       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.