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Archive 2016 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?

  
 
akul
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


CanadaMark wrote:
I think as long as they stagger the announcements enough (like the D700 & D3) and maintain a significant FPS advantage on the D5 (the D700 was still 1 FPS slower than a D3 even with the grip), it can work out OK without cannibalizing too many D5 sales. It will always take away some sales. They will probably maintain more of a FPS difference than they did with the D3/D700 though. The hardcore sports/action pros will still be using D5's. The D850h (or whatever) would be picked up by enthusiasts and wedding shooters for the most part I would
...Show more

I imagine marketing folks are worried to do the D700 route just for the future sale of D6. They may fear people will wait for the sibling of D7x0 to appear 1-2 years after D6, and stagnate D6 sale. So, they ripped off any 'sports' value from DF and used D4 sponsor and D600 focusing. This pattern of 'add and rip off value' product differentiation leads to confusing and frustrating multiple products a la cool pix era. Personally, I don't like that approach. Also, with the weak sale of cameras, they better go all the way to make super attractive product instead of worrying about sale of niche products like D6. There may be no Nikon if they don't gain traction now. Of course, this is just my opinion base on my observation, and can be way off.

Luka



Dec 21, 2016 at 08:02 AM
MRM4
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


If the body on the rumored 760 is just like the body on the 750 and not the 500, then no. I've had a 100, 200, and a 700 and the controls are very similar to one another. Had a 7000 and a 7200 for a short time and my complaint was trying to find where certain controls where, especially on the fly trying to cover something with fast action where I can't spend an extra amount of time trying to find where something is. That's why I sold those and opted for the 500 instead of a 750. If the body and controls are similar to the 200/300/500/700, then I might be interested in it if I was to go back to full frame.


Dec 21, 2016 at 09:27 AM
nugeny
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


No thing will replace D500 for few years,. Right now it is the king of crop sensor . "crop' is the virtue. I bought it for this feature in addition to the AF and of course the IQ.


Dec 21, 2016 at 08:40 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


trenchmonkey wrote:
...and look what it did to D3 sales. Lesson learned perhaps?! Maybe not.


Depends on how you look at it. Seems with the D4 generation they learned *a* lesson, but not *the* [correct] lesson.

The lesson the D700 should've taught them was that the D700 combination of size, weight, features, and cost was just right, and that their flagship needed more. Instead the D4 was more of the same and the D750 went consumer.

The bottom of the market isn't coming back, Nikon. Apple beat you. Stop trying to push back down. Go up-market, particularly in service, if you want to stay alive.



Dec 22, 2016 at 11:07 AM
chrisfphotog
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


My dream camera: D750 with AF system of D500, and then the 1/8000th SS and shutter sound from the D810. Would be the ultimate wedding camera for me.


Dec 23, 2016 at 10:49 AM
RSHPhotography
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


akul wrote:
I imagine marketing folks are worried to do the D700 route just for the future sale of D6. They may fear people will wait for the sibling of D7x0 to appear 1-2 years after D6, and stagnate D6 sale. So, they ripped off any 'sports' value from DF and used D4 sponsor and D600 focusing. This pattern of 'add and rip off value' product differentiation leads to confusing and frustrating multiple products a la cool pix era. Personally, I don't like that approach. Also, with the weak sale of cameras, they better go all the way to make super attractive
...Show more

The thing is Nikon and Canon's marketing are really stupid. I'm in Marketing from a Finance point of view.

The biggest gain these guys need is Injection of new customers into a lineup. they need to get through their thick skulls that VERY FEW PEOPLE WILL BUY A Dx compared to the Dxx line. There's too big of a price gap for people to make that jump. Pros will. But Pros are not the problem. Consumers not getting pro level equipment IS the problem. The reason the D700 worked is because it was a no-nonsense camera that had little compromises.

It's the same reason why the D500 is popular. Putting crappy AF (more Canon than Nikon) and removing options is not the way to go. How much is a round eyepiece or a dedicated AF on button, etc...or 1/8000 shooting at 7-8 fps? It's peanuts in terms of development because the tech already exists. But it can result in someone waiting or switching to another brand.

Let me ask you guys this, had the D750 come out in a D800 style body, with 1/8000, would there be holdouts for the D760? Maybe, but not as many.






Dec 23, 2016 at 11:32 AM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


RSHPhotography wrote:
The thing is Nikon and Canon's marketing are really stupid. I'm in Marketing from a Finance point of view.

The biggest gain these guys need is Injection of new customers into a lineup. they need to get through their thick skulls that VERY FEW PEOPLE WILL BUY A Dx compared to the Dxx line. There's too big of a price gap for people to make that jump. Pros will. But Pros are not the problem. Consumers not getting pro level equipment IS the problem. The reason the D700 worked is because it was a no-nonsense camera that had little compromises.
...Show more

I think what you're missing is the delicate marketing game Nikon has to play with model separation and diversification - especially when you sometimes have several bodies only hundreds apart. At the end of the day, there *has* to be things that justify the different price points in the lineup. If you just give every pro feature to the bottom-end bodies because it doesn't cost much to add, what would be the point of the rest of the lineup? Or if there were only 1 or 2 tiny features separating $2000 and $6000 bodies, who would buy the $6000 one or even the $3000 one?

Everyone wants a D8XX sized D5 for $1000 with their choice of MP. Who wouldn't. But Nikon needs to make more than one camera. They *have* to omit things from lower-end bodies in order to justify the higher priced ones, or they might as well just make 1 or 2 cameras and call it a day. The big things that everyone looks at like sensor, FPS, AF, buffer, build/layout, etc. have to be some of those differences otherwise there's no way you can justify some of the price gaps. Leaving out *just* enough to make people yearn for the next model up is a big part of a successful model lineup. Just look at cars - want the base model but with lane assist, radar cruse control, and blindspot monitoring? Too bad, have to buy the full load to get those small features or an expensive package bundled with 90% of things you don't want to pay for. Another example is why Cable TV companies keep the most popular channels spread out across separate packages.

Of course they could start adding CAM20K AF modules, round eyepieces, AF-ON buttons, 10 FPS, 1/8000 shutters, pro layouts, 200 frame buffers, etc. to all their bodies at all price points but that would be outrageous. No company would do that, and their competition isn't doing that (Nikon actually gives non-flagship bodies way more than Canon does).

Nikon is well aware of Dx body sales numbers and expectations - I don't think there's anything they need to get through their heads about that. It's not like there is a huge surplus of Dx bodies left over every year because they thought their $6.5K bodies would sell like hotcakes to soccer moms and the rest of the general public. They are very low volume, high margin (around $3K per body by some estimations) products and nobody thinks otherwise. I imagine many of them go straight to news agencies and similar organizations through various contracts as well.

Nikon continues to make approximately 85% of it's revenue from low-end DX kits. Surely that is their focus, and it's also why you see much more frequent refreshes on DX bodies and 18-XXX lenses.

I don't think there's a lot of new FX customers being added every year. I suspect the majority of their FX business is from body/lens refreshes and the subsequent upgrades existing professionals and enthusiasts make. I believe that is one big reason why it's so much smaller than their DX business, along with obviously the higher cost of entry. I don't imagine there are many D3XXX orD5XXX owners buying the new D5XXX or D3XXX every year, but lots of people still get their first DSLR for Christmas.

The chances that anyone here knows more about camera marketing than Nikon's own marketing team is pretty much zero, but many are quick to point out Nikon's 'problems' that would so easily be solved by doing 'this' or 'that'. There are also a lot of other markets to consider - for example the Nikon 1 series gets shit on here all the time but in Asia it is quite successful for them.

If you look at their current lineup, it's pretty much perfectly spaced out with very reasonable feature differences separating the price categories. Looking at the competition, it's even more reasonable. (rough prices):

D3400 kit $500 (Volume DX)
D5600 kit $800 (Volume DX)
D7200 $1000 (Enthusiast/Volume DX)

D500 $2000 (Pro DX)

D610 $1500 (Entry FX)
D750 $2000 (Enthusiast-FX, all round feature set)
D810 $3000 (Pro FX, landscape/studio/all round feature set)

D5 $6500 (Pro FX, sports/action/low light)

Now imagine if the entire FX lineup had the same build and general feature set with only tiny inconsequential differences between them - it would be *awesome* for consumers but a disaster for Nikon as a company whose #1 goal is to make money. Consumers getting all out pro-level equipment for non-pro prices would not be a sustainable business model for Nikon. Nikon can make the D500 so close to the D5 spec because the sensor size remains an enormous difference for many consumers. If there was a FX camera that was a D5 except for physical size and half the price, that would probably be too close for Nikon's comfort but I would love it if they made one. I do think Nikon is going to split the D8XX lineup this year which will likely be a very popular decision, but I won't be surprised if they cap the speedier D8XX at 7 or 8 FPS tops and lower the buffer compared to a D5 or use different card media.



Dec 23, 2016 at 12:45 PM
mrgetalife
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


RSHPhotography wrote:
The thing is Nikon and Canon's marketing are really stupid. I'm in Marketing from a Finance point of view.

The biggest gain these guys need is Injection of new customers into a lineup. they need to get through their thick skulls that VERY FEW PEOPLE WILL BUY A Dx compared to the Dxx line. There's too big of a price gap for people to make that jump. Pros will. But Pros are not the problem. Consumers not getting pro level equipment IS the problem. The reason the D700 worked is because it was a no-nonsense camera that had little compromises.
...Show more

D500 is popular because the Pro-DX style of the D300. Until the D7200? came out with strapped with the same AF system. It wasn't there. And even by that time it still wasn't a D300.

And the D700 if you come from a Finance point of view. It was a disaster. You ate the Flagship's revenue. You basically cannibalized all your high end professional sales. It was physically cheaper to have 2 and a half D700 cameras for every one D3. You could destroy D700's in an accident and still be ahead. That is the boat all companies want to avoid happening.



Dec 23, 2016 at 02:06 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


mrgetalife wrote:
D500 is popular because the Pro-DX style of the D300. Until the D7200? came out with strapped with the same AF system. It wasn't there. And even by that time it still wasn't a D300.

And the D700 if you come from a Finance point of view. It was a disaster. You ate the Flagship's revenue. You basically cannibalized all your high end professional sales. It was physically cheaper to have 2 and a half D700 cameras for every one D3. You could destroy D700's in an accident and still be ahead. That is the boat all companies want to avoid
...Show more

Not a financial disaster if you account for the FX bodies that Nikon sold that they otherwise wouldn't have if not for the D700 (the flagship FX bodies are very low volume relative to prosumer bodies, so the number of prosumer D700 sales is much higher than the number of flagship sales lost to the D700). Plus the multiple lenses and accessories they sold along with every D700 body - remember the D3/D700 were Nikon's first FX bodies so everyone had to buy the lenses.



Dec 23, 2016 at 02:56 PM
CanadaMark
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


mrgetalife wrote:
D500 is popular because the Pro-DX style of the D300. Until the D7200? came out with strapped with the same AF system. It wasn't there. And even by that time it still wasn't a D300.

And the D700 if you come from a Finance point of view. It was a disaster. You ate the Flagship's revenue. You basically cannibalized all your high end professional sales. It was physically cheaper to have 2 and a half D700 cameras for every one D3. You could destroy D700's in an accident and still be ahead. That is the boat all companies want to avoid
...Show more

The majority of the flagship body sales happen close to the release date. The D700 came a full year after the D3. The Dx bodies are also very low volume regardless.

They probably wont release a body as close to the D5 as the D700 was to the D3, but it wouldn't necessarily hurt them, especially another full year later. Also keep in mind that even if someone chose the D700 over the D3, they still probably bought the same set of lenses. If all they offered was the D3, lens sales wouldn't be even close to the same. D700's probably outsold D3's by quite a large factor, and with all the extra lens sales I suspect they were well ahead of any scenario where they did not make the D700. The arguement could also be made that the existence of the D3 helped sell way more D700's, because people could more easily make a value comparison.



Dec 23, 2016 at 03:48 PM
Red G8R
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


To "dump" means to throw away. If that's the case then I'm sure there are many members here ready to have it.


Dec 23, 2016 at 05:11 PM
RSHPhotography
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?




mrgetalife wrote:
D500 is popular because the Pro-DX style of the D300. Until the D7200? came out with strapped with the same AF system. It wasn't there. And even by that time it still wasn't a D300.

And the D700 if you come from a Finance point of view. It was a disaster. You ate the Flagship's revenue. You basically cannibalized all your high end professional sales. It was physically cheaper to have 2 and a half D700 cameras for every one D3. You could destroy D700's in an accident and still be ahead. That is the boat all companies want to avoid
...Show more

Wrong. Companies are all about repeat revenue. They want you to come back to buy again and again with enough incentive to keep coming back.

What Nikon did after the D700 was the restaurant equivalent of giving you less portions and raise the price. This is bad business. The d810 didn't have the low light capability of the d4 line, the 750 did but did not have the pro features.

It's confusing for a customer as to where they should put their money. Essentially, the split the d700 line into the d800 and the d600/750.

The d700 did not cannibalize the d3 sales.
It saved Nikon for being cannibalized by the 5d mark 2.

If you look at Canon, their 5d mark 3 and now 4 are fully professional machines and there is no talk of the 1dx line being in danger. Yet when it comes to Nikon this is always brought up.

At the end of the day, very few people buy the flagship lines. More profit is made by the smaller pro and consumer bodies.

If a product isn't clear to its audience, people will gravitate towards something that is.



Dec 23, 2016 at 05:44 PM
joefoo
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


I didn't buy the D500 because I don't like the IQ. I looked hard at the D5, but the success people are having shooting wildlife with the 5DSr convinces me I don't want to go backwards in megapixels.

So I tend to disagree with the OP that a "full frame D500" would be the ultimate BIF camera (for my taste). I would prefer something like the Sony A99II with it's 42MP/12FPS (and a dynamic range curve very similar to the D4s). I would pay whatever they ask for that sort of performance in a Nikon.

I'm not getting my hopes up, however. Given the way the current FX lineup works, it seems more likely that the D760 will be the jack of all trades that competes with the 5DIV. I would expect that, like the D750, it will be built down to a price to keep the range evenly spread and have the consumer control layout to keep the fora constantly moaning. I would bet body parts I am fond of that it won't do 12FPS. On the other hand, if it doesn't match the 5DIV at 7FPS, that would be a clear failure.

The problem is, while 42MP/12FPS is now technically feasible, Nikon aren't likely to make that camera as it would be in the D820 price range, but the D820 has to be a high megapixel monster to compete with the 5DSr. If only Nikon would make cameras specifically for my preferences



Dec 24, 2016 at 02:40 AM
Mark_L
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


Lee Saxon wrote:
The lesson the D700 should've taught them was that the D700 combination of size, weight, features, and cost was just right, and that their flagship needed more. Instead the D4 was more of the same and the D750 went consumer.


I'm not sure from a finance/sales pov. It is not in Nikon's interest to satisfy customers or they won't buy the next model so they do juuust enough to get people to upgrade.

The D700 was an aggressive move to grab market share from Canon as previously they lagged badly. The D4 was a good move as they knew the only people that were realistically going to buy a 1-series camera were full time pros who needed the last word in blazing speed and whose D3's were getting worn out anyway.

The D750 coming later made many buy 'up' to a D800/810 and even when it arrived the scaled back body forced people to buy 'up' if they wanted a more pro body. The delay in D500 was also smart as it forced many to FX where the margins on lenses are very nice and canon didn't have much of an answer either.

All this is well calculated to me. Companies don't make money from giving people exactly what they want especially when they are locked in to your system.



Dec 24, 2016 at 09:26 AM
bs kite
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


To Robert E, the OP:

My guess: Yes, there's a big market for such a camera; i.e. an affordable FX sister to the D500.

The D5 is more expensive and more massive than most folks are willing/able to cope with.

But the D5's sensor is among the very best in the world. And most of us will never get to experience it. Heck, most of us would never experience the performance of any Nikon flagship sensor.

http://www.senscore.org

Seems to me that if you put the D5 sensor and D5 AF capability in a "typical" prosumer FX, you now have a camera that most of us are going to want. And Nikon would probably add an articulating LCD too.

Apparently Nikon Tokyo's thinking is changing. Consider the 200-500 offering/success. None of us thought Nikon would ever offer an affordable 500mm.

Thanks for the heads up Robert

Robert King

https://itsaboutnature.smugmug.com



Dec 24, 2016 at 06:06 PM
Robert E
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


Wow! All I can say is I never thought this thread would get such passionate responses!
Robert King, love your smugmug site, keep up the good work, and I agree with your comments.
Thanks so much to all who replied, let's hope Nikon comes up with something good. Perhaps a FF mirror less body with the AF tracking of the D500 sensor!




Dec 24, 2016 at 06:42 PM
Tyr-Sog
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


Give me a D8XX with 42mp(I'd still settle at 36), 7fps, and updated AF(not even at D5/D500 caliber, just better) and I'd ditch the D500 in a heartbeat.

I could not however go back to shooting D7XXX/D750 styles of bodies.. I just like the prosumer/pro feel and ergos to much.



Dec 24, 2016 at 07:47 PM
bs kite
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Will you dump your D500 for the new D760?


Robert E wrote:
Wow! All I can say is I never thought this thread would get such passionate responses!
Robert King, love your smugmug site, keep up the good work, and I agree with your comments.
Thanks so much to all who replied, let's hope Nikon comes up with something good. Perhaps a FF mirror less body with the AF tracking of the D500 sensor!



Thank you so much Robert




Dec 24, 2016 at 07:51 PM
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