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First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action
  
 
teeraash
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p.17 #1 · p.17 #1 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Now let's compare A7 NKIR UT with Leica M240
Lens: Zeiss ZM 25mm 2.8
PP: adjust exposure, color picker at the same spot for WB, adjust tint of A7 slightly to match color, sharpening 31 with radius 0.8 (on the indoor wardrobe I used 51, 1 which may be a bit too much), no auto tone as done previously.

The images are at 100%. It was cloudy and pretty muddy weather and thus images apperar to be less contrast and less sharp than normal. It should be added that my 25mm infinity focus hard stop is accurate but for this test, I also cross-checked the focus with evf.


Center Area
zeiss 25mm center.jpg by Teera Ashakul, on Flickr


Mid-frame Area
zeiss 25mm mf.jpg by Teera Ashakul, on Flickr


Extreme Corner
zeiss 25mm corner.jpg by Teera Ashakul, on Flickr


Sony A7 NKIR UT tops out Leica 240 in terms of sharpness in ALL AREAS even at f11. Contrast is also better on Sony. Vignette is about the same on both (Leica's lens detection was turnoff).

Edited on May 22, 2017 at 12:51 AM · View previous versions



May 20, 2017 at 03:03 AM
teeraash
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p.17 #2 · p.17 #2 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Hi artur5, I don't think that it's worth the risk to mod A7x for native lenses. But it's a diiferent story if one uses m-mount lenses or other adapted legacy lenses as the UT mod makes them shine. My lux 50mm asph, zeiss 50 1.5, two lenses that I love so much now have no issue at all on the A7 UT while the Kolari V2 leaves lot to be desired.

I'm thinking of sending my a7r2 as well as the mod is not affected my native lenses, Loxia 50, fe macro 90. Voig 15 4.5 also appears to work very well but I need to do more test to be certain.

I've posted my tests in this threat because I feel in debt to people here particularly uhoh7 who started the thread and sebboh. They open my eyes to the UT mod.

I will ask my friend to bring his a7 II for a comparison with my modded a7 as you suggested.



May 20, 2017 at 05:05 AM
Makten
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p.17 #3 · p.17 #3 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


teeraash wrote:
Sony A7 NKIR UT tops out Leica 240 in terms of sharpness in ALL AREAS even at f11.


Looks very strange with the rapid decline in IQ of the M240 @ f/11. I wonder if the microlens design makes it more prone to diffraction or something.

Or could it simply be that you are hitting a certain shutter speed at that aperture, that is shaking the camera slightly?



May 20, 2017 at 12:57 PM
GMPhotography
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p.17 #4 · p.17 #4 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


teeraash wrote:
@artur5@ are you sure that pcx2000 is better than pcx2500 on ZM 25mm? I didn't follow that threat lately. But I recall that the consensus is that pcx2500 is the best. Color pof NKIR (0.75) is much better than what I got with Karali v2. Probably you can adjust in-camera WB tint b1g2 to get nice jpeg color straight out of the camera or simply use LR color picker. It takes lot more time to adjust the Kolari color which deviates a lot from stock Sony.

Oh I browsed that thread again and saw the simulatiin on p67 which indicates
...Show more

I had the PCX 2500 on the ZM 25 2.8 on a stock A7rII and got really good results with it. Perfect extreme corners at 5.6. I since sold the lens but the PCX 2500 already mounted in a filter setup is on the buy and sell.



May 20, 2017 at 01:12 PM
teeraash
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p.17 #5 · p.17 #5 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Hi Makten, the shutter speed at f11 of 240 went to 1/25. This is still within one over focal lenght and I braced front end of the lens firmly against window glass. (I shot through window). But of course, some camera movements could happen and I strongly needed to have coffee then. I used tripod though for the wardrobe sets as they were done at home.

Nevertheless, A7 NKIR is consistently better than M240 for all apertures from f2.8 to f8.

Edited on May 22, 2017 at 12:45 AM · View previous versions



May 20, 2017 at 03:08 PM
teeraash
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p.17 #6 · p.17 #6 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Hi artur5, today I had a chance to compare FE 50mm 1.4 on A7 UT and stock A7. The image is slightly worse on edge and peripheral areas on the A7 UT. Then why the Loxia 50mm is better on the UT mod? Probably this is because Loxia 50mm design was derived from the ZM 50mm 2 with some modification to compensate for thick cover glass. But it is not design from the start for the A7x series. Thus, the lens still performs very well or even better on ultra thin mirror stack camera. If this theory hold true, then the Loxia 50mm and 35mm are the only two exceptional lenses that perform better on the UT stack camera than stock camera. Make sense?


May 21, 2017 at 09:55 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.17 #7 · p.17 #7 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


teeraash wrote:
Hi artur5, today I had a chance to compare FE 50mm 1.4 on A7 UT and stock A7. The image is slightly worse on edge and peripheral areas on the A7 UT. Then why the Loxia 50mm is better on the UT mod? Probably this is because Loxia 50mm design was derived from the ZM 50mm 2 with some modification to compensate for thick cover glass. But it is not design from the start for the A7x series. Thus, the lens still performs very well or even better on ultra thin mirror stack camera. If this theory hold true, then
...Show more

The key variables are exit pupil and aperture. The FE 50 f/1.4 at f/1.4 would be expected to be worse as fast aperture contributes to cover glass issues. I am still not convinced that the Loxia 50 is better on the A7 UT, but rather it seems to me that it is more likely it just isn't worse. There will be a lot of lenses with longer exit pupils and at narrower apertures which are not affected, but I am not sure any including the Loxia 50 and 35 are actually better. I don't want to slag your testing as I very much appreciate it and know how hard such testing is to do, but when the differences are as small as we were seeing and it isn't clear that they have similar sharpening, judging sharpness is pretty hard.

Despite those concerns I think your tests do show just how useful the UT mod can be. You could use the camera with lots of great adapted glass and the Loxia 50 would still perform very well on it. Other native mount lenses would need to be tested on a lens by lens basis, but we can expect lenses with shorter exit pupils and larger apertures to show the strongest effects of the thinner cover glass.



May 21, 2017 at 11:09 AM
freaklikeme
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p.17 #8 · p.17 #8 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


One with the Biogon 25...

a7rII_UT_ZM_Biogon_25_ChangingSkyline by Bradley Clemens, on Flickr



And a couple with the APO-Telyt 135. I'm kind of stuck on a theme...

a7rII_UT_APO-Telyt_135_Cranes2 by Bradley Clemens, on Flickr



a7rII_UT_APO-Telyt_135_Cranes1 by Bradley Clemens, on Flickr



May 22, 2017 at 12:18 AM
freaklikeme
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p.17 #9 · p.17 #9 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


I've got the ZM C Biogon 35 and Loxia 21 rentals coming on Friday and I should have time to do some more extensive testing on some of the others this weekend.

Any bets on the Loxia? Logically, it should be worse on the UT, right?



May 25, 2017 at 04:51 AM
thrice
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p.17 #10 · p.17 #10 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


freaklikeme wrote:
Any bets on the Loxia? Logically, it should be worse on the UT, right?


My bet is on considerably worse.



May 25, 2017 at 07:21 AM
 

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sebboh
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p.17 #11 · p.17 #11 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


my primary purpose for getting the kolari UT conversion was to keep things really small. to that end i've been curious about what i could get by converting lenses from fixed lens rangefinder cameras.

the first two lenses i've tried are the rokkor 40/1.7 from a HiMatic and a zeiss 35/3.5 from a yashica T5. performance is pretty good except for the extreme corners. here's comparisons to my other pancakeish 35mm (contax g 35).

rokkor:





full sized

zeiss:





full size

unfortunately, my hawk's adapter sags, so the tessar test isn't worth much.

size comparison (g35, rokkor 40/1.7, zeiss 35/3.5, 35 lux pre-asph):










Aug 11, 2017 at 05:25 PM
wiley.tw
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p.17 #12 · p.17 #12 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


freaklikeme wrote:
I've got the ZM C Biogon 35 and Loxia 21 rentals coming on Friday and I should have time to do some more extensive testing on some of the others this weekend.

Any bets on the Loxia? Logically, it should be worse on the UT, right?


I guess not, but let's see the experiments. For those long exit pupil new designed for Sony lens, the UT mod get worse, like planar or sonnar designs. Also expected to be worse on complex lens like Otus. Others distagon biogon not. I owned A7R2 NKmod_v1(0.7mm+0.8mm cover=1.5mm) with many native lens includes Batis 85, FE1635ZA, FE24240 and see no visible degradation on that. Also mount with Leica 35/1.4 FLE (11663) for my major lens and results very good images. I did not tried apple to apple match on those lens, but some shots from [email protected] seemed to be slightly better even compared to original stack A7R2. The NKmod_v1 problem was IR leak that cause red bias in cloudy day, easily to be post fixed but not good for cine videos (even with PP). I am sending my v1 A7R2 to be replaced with v3+ that remove cover glass and put new IR/UV cut glass (0.75mm) on it, and then will have some comparison until the camera is back.


Edited on Aug 16, 2017 at 06:57 AM · View previous versions



Aug 16, 2017 at 05:16 AM
wiley.tw
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p.17 #13 · p.17 #13 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


freaklikeme wrote:
One with the Biogon 25...

These shots in cloudy day seemed to be red shift by IR leaking. Am I right ?



Aug 16, 2017 at 05:43 AM
mdemeyer
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p.17 #14 · p.17 #14 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


I'm not sure it's IR leakage, but probably just the difference in spectral response of the different filters. I was able to deal with that by making custom profiles using ColorChecker. I have posted those (as have others) for a variety of mods in the various threads on this topic. I have also (more recently) experimented with tweaks to the channel gains in the Adobe LR profiles - see my post from a day ago in the Combined Testing thread for an example.

Michael

wiley.tw wrote:
These shots in cloudy day seemed to be red shift by IR leaking. Am I right ?




Aug 16, 2017 at 06:09 AM
nekrosoft13
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p.17 #15 · p.17 #15 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


thin mod?


Aug 16, 2017 at 05:56 PM
realVivek
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p.17 #16 · p.17 #16 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


There is a (better IMO) alternate possibility to this thin filter mod.

Do a "full spectrum" mod with no extra glass added and use one of the newly available clip filters from Astronomik or STC to white balance. These are thin filters well.

The added benefit of this approach is the possibility to do IR captures by changing the clip filter.



Aug 16, 2017 at 07:57 PM
nampramos
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p.17 #17 · p.17 #17 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


I am on page 8 of this thread (not an easy read) and still could not understand the following:

1. The latest mod from Kolari, the UT, does indeed give the same performance on the Sony sensors as any modern Leica M digital cameras?

2. Until page 8, (when the initial prototype of the UT showed up), the WB was all over the place and did not look good at all. Is this now fixed or every shot will have to get its WB fixed in post?

3. The A7RII sensor is the one that best performs with this UT mod, correct? How far back is the A7S with the UT compared to the A7RII?


Thank you very much!



Aug 17, 2017 at 04:35 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.17 #18 · p.17 #18 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


nampramos wrote:
2. Until page 8, (when the initial prototype of the UT showed up), the WB was all over the place and did not look good at all. Is this now fixed or every shot will have to get its WB fixed in post?

Can't comment on others, but WB is not an issue. On this and on some other threads we have had few people trying to not use RAW-benefits and tried to shoot auto-wb etc. Auto-wb will never be good, as there are some assumptions what color scenes generally should be and if you have color cast and non-linear color errors, one just have to accept that auto-wb is not very good solution (I hate it even with standard camera). If you ONCE check real values for sunny, cloudy, shade, tungsten and then use those you are much better situation that the auto-wb-people ever will be. If in addition you buy calibration target and create ACR/Lightroom profile performance is same/better than using Adobe default for standard camera.

Samuli



Aug 17, 2017 at 04:45 PM
uhoh7
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p.17 #19 · p.17 #19 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


nampramos wrote:
I am on page 8 of this thread (not an easy read) and still could not understand the following:

1. The latest mod from Kolari, the UT, does indeed give the same performance on the Sony sensors as any modern Leica M digital cameras?

Not the same performance. But perhaps in terms of FC, the UT is there.

2. Until page 8, (when the initial prototype of the UT showed up), the WB was all over the place and did not look good at all. Is this now fixed or every shot will have to get its WB fixed in post?

UT has unique
...Show more

Sry for the very late reply.

I love the NKIR tests above, thanks so much for those. Kolari is now confident about pulling the base coverglass, as NKIR does. My own A7r2 is yet to be modded, so we might use that one for some tests. I was about ready to send it to NKIR in the spring, but I needed it for work.

Honestly I was thinking of the S8612 for my own camera. Just because the performance seems so good. Very dry here.

I will update you guys



Oct 13, 2017 at 06:08 PM
nampramos
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p.17 #20 · p.17 #20 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Thank you!


Oct 14, 2017 at 10:55 AM
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